ADCS Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I don't understand the Conroe/Montgomery county people; if they follow the utility line route (which seems like the much better choice) it doesn't even go thru their county. Why are they bitchin? They want a station in The Woodlands, and if they don't get one, they want to derail (sorry) the whole project as a show of political strength. Sort of the same way Fort Worth gets all in a tizzy when Dallas gets some cool project and Tarrant County's left out. It's parochial politics at its dullest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 They want a station in The Woodlands, and if they don't get one, they want to derail (sorry) the whole project as a show of political strength. Sort of the same way Fort Worth gets all in a tizzy when Dallas gets some cool project and Tarrant County's left out. It's parochial politics at its dullest. Until they incorporate they aren't as important as they think they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Until they incorporate they aren't as important as they think they are.I'd like to think so, but with ExxonMobil being up there, they've got a very powerful political ally at their disposal. They managed to get the dead-in-the-water Grand Parkway pushed through, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I mean the money they'd earn from selling plots of land to TCR.Wasn't part of the idea that they WOULDN'T take lots of ROW, and that was one of the pro-HSR arguments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I don't remember anything concrete, but I assume that the peoe who would complain that a death defying and sonic boom generating train that would cut their land off from civilization would be rewarded handsomely.Let's be real here, they're only putting up this much of a fight because they want adequate compensation...which to them is a lot more than they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I don't remember anything concrete, but I assume that the peoe who would complain that a death defying and sonic boom generating train that would cut their land off from civilization would be rewarded handsomely.Let's be real here, they're only putting up this much of a fight because they want adequate compensation...which to them is a lot more than they deserve. It isn't even that - for people who live next to the proposed route, it's more about city folk disrupting their lives without them having say-so in it. For people near The Woodlands (read: O&G managers who would use the line fairly frequently, along with land developers), it's about having to drive all the way to Downtown to take the train, and the lack of TOD opportunities. You wouldn't be seeing such strong opposition from Montgomery County state/federal politicians if it weren't for that latter constituency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) It isn't even that - for people who live next to the proposed route, it's more about city folk disrupting their lives without them having say-so in it. For people near The Woodlands (read: O&G managers who would use the line fairly frequently, along with land developers), it's about having to drive all the way to Downtown to take the train, and the lack of TOD opportunities. You wouldn't be seeing such strong opposition from Montgomery County state/federal politicians if it weren't for that latter constituency. Sure they have Exxon and a couple others but they can get in line along with Katy, Cypress, Tomball, Energy Corridor, Cinco Ranch, Pearland, Clear Lake, Kingwood, etc..... They aren't entitled to anything! If they are lazy enough to not even provide their own city services and spread like weeds while leaching off the City of Houston then they don't have any argument even if they have Oil Companies to talk for them. I like the Woodlands I really do and I'm interested in this Springwoods thing, but lets not get this twisted. The Grand Parkway was going to happen and it was Exxon that placed their campus ON the Grand Parkway. It wasn't TXDOT moving the Grand Parkway or going faster to accommodate them. If you or others want to play on that conspiracy or coincidence then go ahead, but they planned their campus accordingly. They are already placed at the end of Hardy which gets them most of the way their. Besides this isn't what this rail is marketed towards. If they want to use it then that's great, but its for people who want to get from Center to Center not from Outskirts to Outskirts etc... This the beginning of the system not the end of it and their will be opportunities in the future, but they need to stop being selfish brats and know that their are others who could use it as well. /end rant Edited February 16, 2015 by Luminare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNAguy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) My 2¢: The politicians and developers (not mutually exclusive) want the rail line through Montgomery county for the purposes highlighted in previous posts: Development $'s and a stop which would lead to more $'s. However, they can't come out and just say that b/c a) you don't want the base to realize that the ppl in charge are just a bunch of rich fat cats and not the down home conservative crusader they try to convey and it would cost more $ to do this.... and this is a private organization. That would mean the government is forcing a private company to spend more $. This is unpalatable to conservative dogma / base voters as they rail against unneeded regulations and the burden gov places on business all the time. What to do...... Ah yes! Because a federal approval must be given, the project is labeled 'government' (doesn't matter if true or not... just call it government). Now that this has the stink of government, fire up the base by highlighting the simple farmer who will have this land 'taken' from him. Now that we have a winning cocktail of the big bad government taking away private land from simple farm folks, use this as leverage to get the private company to do your bidding w/out voters realizing what you're doing. Then when the line is moved to where you want, highlight that this is a private project that won't get any gov $ and talk about how great the free market is. Don't bring up eminent domain again. Boom. That's how you do politics in a one party system like we have here in Texas.... oh yeah, somewhere you also get the TCR to give you campaign $. I forgot that part. I think you do that as the one last step b/f you go out and stump for the rail line. Edited February 16, 2015 by DNAguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 My 2¢: The politicians and developers (not mutually exclusive) want the rail line through Montgomery county for the purposes highlighted in previous posts: Development $'s and a stop which would lead to more $'s. However, they can't come out and just say that b/c a) you don't want the base to realize that the ppl in charge are just a bunch of rich fat cats and not the down home conservative crusader they try to convey and it would cost more $ to do this.... and this is a private organization. That would mean the government is forcing a private company to spend more $. This is unpalatable to conservative dogma / base voters as they rail against unneeded regulations and the burden gov places on business all the time. What to do...... Ah yes! Because a federal approval must be given, the project is labeled 'government' (doesn't matter if true or not... just call it government). Now that this has the stink of government, fire up the base by highlighting the simple farmer who will have this land 'taken' from him. Now that we have a winning cocktail of the big bad government taking away private land from simple farm folks, use this as leverage to get the private company to do your bidding w/out voters realizing what you're doing. Then when the line is moved to where you want, highlight that this is a private project that won't get any gov $ and talk about how great the free market is. Don't bring up eminent domain again. Boom. That's how you do politics in a one party system like we have here in Texas.... oh yeah, somewhere you also get the TCR to give you campaign $. I forgot that part. I think you do that as the one last step b/f you go out and stump for the rail line. What collapses this argument in an instant is the fact that this isn't a government project or even labeled as one. The only part that is labeled as a government project is the Environmental Impact Study and subsequent studies by the Federal Railroad Administration all of which are required by law for any rail project public or private, but that doesn't mean that the project is a government one. In fact many of these meetings or studies are merely for find recommendations or impact to surrounding environment...that's it. the EPA or FRA doesn't have any authority to take land from people as that isn't their department. If this were a public project then that info would be passed those authorities who would proceed with eminent domain. It's a cute story you got there, but most of what you put there is exactly why they are going private. Lets also not forget that many who are in the TCR company have worked for federal or state politics, or companies which are providing the tech. They know the in's and out's of not only legislation, but tech they are dealing with as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNAguy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 What collapses this argument in an instant is the fact that this isn't a government project or even labeled as one. The only part that is labeled as a government project is the Environmental Impact Study and subsequent studies by the Federal Railroad Administration all of which are required by law for any rail project public or private, but that doesn't mean that the project is a government one. In fact many of these meetings or studies are merely for find recommendations or impact to surrounding environment...that's it. the EPA or FRA doesn't have any authority to take land from people as that isn't their department. If this were a public project then that info would be passed those authorities who would proceed with eminent domain. It's a cute story you got there, but most of what you put there is exactly why they are going private. Lets also not forget that many who are in the TCR company have worked for federal or state politics, or companies which are providing the tech. They know the in's and out's of not only legislation, but tech they are dealing with as well. There you go w/ "facts" and the "truth" (other than the implying the fact that eminent domain can only be used by the government. See Kelo vs. City of New London. Even the state law that's supposed to limit eminent domain does little to actually curb its use. There's truck sized loop holes in that bad boy.) Believe me, the opposition to this rail has nothing to do w/ the truth. It never has. Fear, stupidity, and myopia are what fuel the opposition here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 There you go w/ "facts" and the "truth" (other than the implying the fact that eminent domain can only be used by the government. See Kelo vs. City of New London. Even the state law that's supposed to limit eminent domain does little to actually curb its use. There's truck sized loop holes in that bad boy.) Believe me, the opposition to this rail has nothing to do w/ the truth. It never has. Fear, stupidity, and myopia are what fuel the opposition here. I'm very familiar with that, and yes this whole thing has never been about the "truth" or "facts", but this all comes down to how TCR properly educates the public about this. I mean go back to my wsj article where it clearly in the title makes it known that this is entirely private without public funding. Other people can believe whatever they want to believe, but until TCR publicly comes out and says they will be taking public funding then it's nothing, but white-noise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Sure they have Exxon and a couple others but they can get in line along with Katy, Cypress, Tomball, Energy Corridor, Cinco Ranch, Pearland, Clear Lake, Kingwood, etc..... They aren't entitled to anything! If they are lazy enough to not even provide their own city services and spread like weeds while leaching off the City of Houston then they don't have any argument even if they have Oil Companies to talk for them. I like the Woodlands I really do and I'm interested in this Springwoods thing, but lets not get this twisted. The Grand Parkway was going to happen and it was Exxon that placed their campus ON the Grand Parkway. It wasn't TXDOT moving the Grand Parkway or going faster to accommodate them. If you or others want to play on that conspiracy or coincidence then go ahead, but they planned their campus accordingly. They are already placed at the end of Hardy which gets them most of the way their. Besides this isn't what this rail is marketed towards. If they want to use it then that's great, but its for people who want to get from Center to Center not from Outskirts to Outskirts etc... This the beginning of the system not the end of it and their will be opportunities in the future, but they need to stop being selfish brats and know that their are others who could use it as well. /end rant The one thing about The Woodlands is that they don't see themselves as a suburb or edge city. They see themselves as the emerging second city of the Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land MSA. In their minds, this would be as if a high speed line were being constructed between Minneapolis and Chicago, and didn't go through St. Paul (imperfect an analogy though that may be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) The one thing about The Woodlands is that they don't see themselves as a suburb or edge city. They see themselves as the emerging second city of the Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land MSA. In their minds, this would be as if a high speed line were being constructed between Minneapolis and Chicago, and didn't go through St. Paul (imperfect an analogy though that may be). That's great and I see them as an emerging city too, but they are still technically a suburb of Houston as they are in Houston's ETJ (Extra Territorial Jurisdiction) and until they have that little sign in front that says "The Woodlands: Incorporated since (insert year here)" Then they can have all the delusions of grandeur they want, but they are still a suburb and they are still thought of by many in Houston as a suburb! St. Paul and Minneapolis are each independent cities. Dallas and Ft. Worth and Arlington, and Irving, and Denton, etc... are all cities. I know that you understand what I'm talking about, but devils advocate is only solidifying my argument. Another thing I should add too is that while top officials in The Woodlands might see The Woodlands as a new city, most of it's population still sees itself as a large suburb tucked away in the forest with the "city center" or "lakefront" or "hugh's landing" is an anomaly. Until it's serious about making it's full transformation into a real city those areas remain the exception rather than the rule. The Woodlands is the textbook definition of an Edge City or Fringe City or Satellite City or whatever nomenclature they wish to use tomorrow it's one in the same. Edited February 16, 2015 by Luminare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollusk Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 it's nothing, but white-noise. Nailed it. I'd only modify it to say "entitled white noise." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 The residents of The Woodlands would have to be willing to pay the increased taxes becoming a real incorporated city entails. That's not going to happen soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Texas Central Railway said it was informing the Federal Railroad Administration that it prefers a route along electrical utility corridors. The route would use land along the BNSF right of way near Loop 610 and U.S. 290, then follow Union Pacific tracks along Washington into downtown Houston.http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/High-speed-rail-route-would-affect-Houston-6085167.php 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So the Montgomery County conversation has become completely moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So the Montgomery County conversation has become completely moot. Flawless Victory! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So the Montgomery County conversation has become completely moot.Now the discussion will stay focused on the innerloop. The nimbyism will be strong with this one. I almost feel like creating a website in support for this high speed rail, something I have never gotten involved in before. It's absolutely apparent that this state needs this, to propel us out of the 20th century. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Now the discussion will stay focused on the innerloop. The nimbyism will be strong with this one. I almost feel like creating a website in support for this high speed rail, something I have never gotten involved in before. It's absolutely apparent that this state needs this, to propel us out of the 20th century. Absolutely! Especially if they were already mentioning the Washington Corridor I think it's very evident that they are going to put it downtown. This is the best route as they won't have really any real NIMBY opposition until they are right near Washington St. You should definitely do the site too! That would be awesome. Edited February 17, 2015 by Luminare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkp5 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The way I'm reading the article is that they are planning on building elevated track along 1-10 once they get inside the loop, so they would be avoiding Washington Ave and all other neighborhoods. I'm on my phone right now, though, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) The way I'm reading the article is that they are planning on building elevated track along 1-10 once they get inside the loop, so they would be avoiding Washington Ave and all other neighborhoods. I'm on my phone right now, though, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong. You may not be wrong, but where on earth are they going to get the room to create that elevated track??? Not to mention you will still have to fight the Heights and north of Washington as well. I can't read the article because of the stupid paywall. EDIT: Possible non-paywall link http://www.chron.com/news/transportation/article/High-speed-rail-route-would-affect-Houston-6085167.php Also it looks like the Utility Corridor is officially going to be the route chosen! EDIT2: Seriously.....opposition.....already rail where you live......makes no sense!!!!! UGH Edited February 17, 2015 by Luminare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So did this really quick. This actually could be genius! I would route the train like this. Once you get past Studemont you are essentially home free. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The way I'm reading the article is that they are planning on building elevated track along 1-10 once they get inside the loop, so they would be avoiding Washington Ave and all other neighborhoods. I'm on my phone right now, though, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong.No. They're looking into it as an option to appease Parker who is appeasing the nimbys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Haha, that's great Luminare. Still boggles my mind that there's an existing freight ROW and the NIMBYs are worrying about much quieter less disruptive trains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 You may not be wrong, but where on earth are they going to get the room to create that elevated track??? On top of the trenched I-10. You could cantilever the tracks or post them on pylons centered in the middle of the highway. Not sure the best way of getting them downtown. It would be really hard to hit the Post Office site going that way without some residential takings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 On top of the trenched I-10. You could cantilever the tracks or post them on pylons centered in the middle of the highway. Not sure the best way of getting them downtown. It would be really hard to hit the Post Office site going that way without some residential takings. I completely agree with you. I still think the path through the NIMBY's is the best way logistically, but here are some ways to get there from both extremes and a possible middle path. Red is the one extreme. Logistically it would be next to impossible with so many highways converging and the possible completely realignment of these highways in the next 20 years as we have seen recently from TXDOT who are actually exploring that option. It's also just bonehead retard, but it could work......if you were really crazy! The Orange is another extreme. This would mean taking out some housing along White Oak Bayou, but it's the straightest of the three options and the only major demo would be some of those new big box stores. Aesthetically the Heights loses a bit in the end as you now have a huge elevated track going across the Heights and Yale.....but I mean I-10 already does that so....yeah. I actually prefer this option. Yellow is a possible middle path. The one I have laid out would not take out any residential only some aging infrastructure, and aging industry. Lets not also forget that at this point the train is going to be going pretty slow (for a train of course). I would say no more than 40-45mph at a continously decelerating trend meaning that the final length of track doesn't have to be very straight. It doesn't need to be very straight for departing trains either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollusk Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Taking it straight south from the Katy through the middle of Walmart would really put the NIMBYs in a pickle. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxConcrete Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 An alignment cannot be recommended without first being presented at a public meeting. So the Interstate 10 route is still under study and is not the recommended option. If they determine the IH-10 route to be feasible, there will be another public meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Over trenched 10 might be nice, but what about the existing bridges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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