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MaxConcrete

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If you're talking about riders from the Smithlands station to the TMC, that's exactly my point. They ride for a station or two and get off. It's a park and ride. There are park and riders and homeless people on the light rail. Of course there are exceptions but that's the bulk.  If they could they would park in their respective hospital but they can't so they park in the surface lot across from smithlands and ride for a station or two.

 

I almost feel like ridership numbers for our light rail should eliminate the numbers from the smithlands station. That station must inflate numbers by the thousands. The only reason they ride is because parking is limited in the TMC and their companies subsidize the parking and Qcards.

 

That's not a total knock on our light rail. It is popular as a park and ride for upper middle class riders from the med center. Which is to say people like their cars but hate expensive parking. A HSR station in the NW mall parking lot makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

 

No you are knocking on it. Just be honest in how you say it dude. Thats not how data or statistics work. You can't just cherry pick data just to help make you feel better. Anyone that gets on the lightrail at any point is part of the ridership numbers. No matter how they get to it they are still CHOOSING to use it.

 

Companies subsidizing it is a very smart move. Especially for Hospitals thats a no brainier! If they can say that they are pulling in people coming into their hosptial via other means then they can apply for variances in parking which will help to reduce the number of parking needed for a building which is saving them money. You have no idea how much of a waste of space and money parking is! From an architecture stand point its a huge burden on owners to waste almost 1/3, to sometimes in suburban areas 2/3rds, to parking (and in suburban areas you then have to add detention because of all the water runoff from parking). By diversifying transit options it not only helps save businesses money on the front end, but over the lifetime of a tenent in a building or owning a building the financial savings is huge. Instead of "x" amount of sqft of parking....that space can now go to more hospital beds, more retail, more office space, more residential which are more active spaces and more money bringers than lifeless wasteful parking. Why do you think so many surface parking lots are disappearing so quickly! If they had the opportunity to trade parking for something which would use the space better than they would do it at the drop of a hat! People also wonder why parking ordinances in this city are so oppressive and anti-owner and its because there are no options to apply a variance to reduce the amount of parking needed. More buses, more bike lanes, more rail means more options more choice and more flexibility. It not only makes logical sense, it also makes economic sense.

 

EDIT: One more thing. You can't seriously look at me with a straight face and tell me that that isn't something worth striving for! It behooves us as citizens in our city to think about how people get around who maybe don't want to drive, or can't, or its a financial burden to own a car. Having a car shouldn't be a prerequisite to living in the third/fourth largest city in the country. A car should be something you WANT to have not NEED to have. I'm sorry that some business person doens't feel the need to walk amongst us peasants or plebs, but that doesn't give the excuse that most people are ok with walking or riding next to others just like them.

Edited by Luminare
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To a certain extent yes. The smithland riders commuted using their cars. They would have parked a lot closer in or near the front of their hospital if they could but they can't.

 

It's like in the old days of the Astrodome, where you would park your car and then one of those long golf carts would pick you up and give you a ride to the front entrance. It's not like they went there looking to ride the long golf cart. It's more like sorry there's no more parking up front, but don't worry we will give you a ride to the front...

 

I'm sorry, but that's absurd. That's like saying we shouldn't count pedestrian traffic on the train, because they wouldn't have taken the train if work weren't so far away. It's like saying we shouldn't over inflate auto traffic counts, because people walk from their cars to their desks, so really, they walked to work.

 

Each one of these examples involves a mode shift because of reduced accessibility in the other mode. Adapting mode usage to maximize accessibility and usability is the very essence of modern transportation.

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Perhaps true for cities with a heavy rail option. Houston has no heavy rail, so I'm not sure that argument furthers our discussion. In Houston our light rail caters mostly to homeless people and people who park their car near a station and ride for a station or two to their final destination. In Houston commuter busses are very popular. The park and ride system works well. Perhaps that's what the HSR station in Houston will be like?

And It's ASLO my experience that business travelers prefer taxi's and Uber, which is to say they prefer cars once they get off the train or plane.

I mean, that's sorta exactly what a park & ride system is for buses. But, over sweeping generalization thy name is 102IAHexpress!

I hate that this has turned into the Purple/Green line thread but since there's been no info as of late I understand.

Edited by BigFootsSocks
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Anyone that gets on the lightrail at any point is part of the ridership numbers. No matter how they get to it they are still CHOOSING to use it.

 

 

 

That's a false assumption. There are thousands of BUS riders who are forced to use the light rail. They chose to start there mode of transportation on a different mode but are then forced to transfer to something else.

 

If it makes you feel better knowing the ridership numbers are high because of the busses that feed it and the park and riders who can't find parking, well I hope that gives you comfort. But luckily the investors of this HSR care more about profit than a warm happy feeling. They will make wise business decisions because that's the obligation they owe their investors, contrast that versus putting a light rail or bus line where policy makers deem it more popular or HAIFers for that matter.

Edited by 102IAHexpress
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EDIT: One more thing. You can't seriously look at me with a straight face and tell me that that isn't something worth striving for! It behooves us as citizens in our city to think about how people get around who maybe don't want to drive, or can't, or its a financial burden to own a car. Having a car shouldn't be a prerequisite to living in the third/fourth largest city in the country. A car should be something you WANT to have not NEED to have. I'm sorry that some business person doens't feel the need to walk amongst us peasants or plebs, but that doesn't give the excuse that most people are ok with walking or riding next to others just like them.

 

Well then you should practice what you preach. The problem is you and most everyone else in this sub forum is caught up on trains.  I also want to strive for better public transportation for my city, but where we differ is that you only see rail. Just admit it you hate busses.

 

I think ross posted earlier about the station having bus access and Vic called him negative. Seriously? A great bus system is also worth striving for..

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That's a false assumption. There are thousands of BUS riders who are forced to use the light rail. They chose to start there mode of transportation on a different mode but are then forced to transfer to something else.

 

If it makes you feel better knowing the ridership numbers are high because of the busses that feed it and the park and riders who can't find parking, well I hope that gives you comfort. But luckily the investors of this HSR care more about profit than a warm happy feeling. They will make wise business decisions because that's the obligation they owe their investors, contrast that versus putting a light rail or bus line where policy makers deem it more popular or HAIFers for that matter.

 

By that very definition. I'm forced to take my car into work because there is no other "mode" of transportation and you are "forced" to say that very sentence on the internet because you're unable to say it in person since the internet is essentially a vehicle to transport words from one to another.

 

Yeah you're right it does make me feel good using the full amount of data that can possibly go into my argument and getting a full picture of what is actually going on rather than hide behind a small cherry picked amount of data because thats what is needed to hold up a very flimsy argument.

 

I'm also very happy that you aren't making a $10 billion dollar business decision :) To be an innovator means that you transcend just thinking about money because money only takes you so far and most of the time it keeps you thinking short term because its something that can be easily gained or lost quickly. Making an investment is something you do for a long term and thats what a type of industry they are about to get into is. For example, I just made a huge investment by going into grad school. Fiscally speaking.....pretty dumb considering it will put me in more debt (not as much in Germany as it would if I went to a school here in the US), and the amount of money for an education is ridiculous and if you told most teenagers starting college about the amount of money they would be in debt without telling the benefits.....no one would go to college. I'm banking on making more money later by putting more money in now. You gotta spend money to make money and HSR is the same thing.

Edited by Luminare
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Well then you should practice what you preach. The problem is you and most everyone else in this sub forum is caught up on trains.  I also want to strive for better public transportation for my city, but where we differ is that you only see rail. Just admit it you hate busses.

 

I think ross posted earlier about the station having bus access and Vic called him negative. Seriously? A great bus system is also worth striving for..

 

Ha. Joke is on you. I give you.......exactly what I think about our Bus System which now with its reimagining...is quite good. I love you how you are like.....uh uh uh I'm for public transportation as well! Thats cute.

 

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/30292-metro-draft-reimagined-network-plan/page-2

 

Please read up.

 

I guess I will have to tell you that I plan on taking the bus into downtown with my brother who just moved into the Heights when I go to the Astros game on Sunday. Maybe I will see you when you roll up to one of the many fine surface parking lots when I get there *tips hat*

Edited by Luminare
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If you're talking about riders from the Smithlands station to the TMC, that's exactly my point. They ride for a station or two and get off. It's a park and ride. There are park and riders and homeless people on the light rail. Of course there are exceptions but that's the bulk.  If they could they would park in their respective hospital but they can't so they park in the surface lot across from smithlands and ride for a station or two.

 

I almost feel like ridership numbers for our light rail should eliminate the numbers from the smithlands station. That station must inflate numbers by the thousands. The only reason they ride is because parking is limited in the TMC and their companies subsidize the parking and Qcards.

 

That's not a total knock on our light rail. It is popular as a park and ride for upper middle class riders from the med center. Which is to say people like their cars but hate expensive parking. A HSR station in the NW mall parking lot makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

 

Saying that something should be disqualified from being counted because of subsidies, or lack of options is a horrible argument.

 

So all those people who park downtown that are subsidized by their companies to do so, they should be discounted. All those people who P&R due to subsidies, carpools, bikeshares, etc. anything that is subsidized, discount any numbers related to them.

 

You just can't do that.

 

Ignore all the ridership numbers in NYC, London, etc, because parking just isn't there, and people are encouraged to take public transit rather than pay a congestion fee, so they really aren't given an option. 

 

Imagine if Houston implemented a congestion fee!

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I'm also very happy that you aren't making a $10 billion dollar business decision :)

 

We live in a free market. If you want to raise billions of dollars and build a HSR then you can put the station wherever you want to.

 

The problem for your position is that the people who are putting their money where their mouths are and are looking at the data are coming to a different conclusion from you or anyone else who has no skin in the game. They are considering the Houston station outside of downtown. You may not like their possible conclusion but again it's their money.

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We live in a free market. If you want to raise billions of dollars and build a HSR then you can put the station wherever you want to.

 

The problem for your position is that the people who are putting their money where their mouths are and are looking at the data are coming to a different conclusion from you or anyone else who has no skin in the game. They are considering the Houston station outside of downtown. You may not like their possible conclusion but again it's their money.

 

so far as I know, they are still considering the Houston station inside of downtown. You may not like their possible conclusion, but again, it's their money.

 

I like comma more than you.

 

Anyway, more to the point, why is the assumption immediately that these people who are making 10 billion dollar decisions didn't first consult with the groups who they wish to share right of way with? We all (check that, you and others) assume that the people who run the current railway line up washington aren't going to agree to HSR sharing their ROW. 

 

I can just imagine their shock, when the Texas HSR just decided to publish that they were going to consider using that ROW without even talking to the owners first. that is a funny story.

Edited by samagon
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I hate that this has turned into the Purple/Green line thread but since there's been no info as of late I understand.

 

Some new info on the HSR would be great.  

 

And yes, i will admit that I have a strong dislike for buses.  Not that i don't see the utility of them, I just didn't get super excited about the "reimagined" routes because to me, and probably me only, it seems like Metro is patting themselves on the back and the satisfaction with their new plan will inhibit planning future rail projects. 

 

Just my two cents, not trying to spur an argument over buses, haha. 

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The problem is you and most everyone else in this sub forum is caught up on trains.  

 

I might be going crazy, so can anyone read the string of forums above and mind telling me what sub-forum this is for......yeah I do think this is a sub-forum for TRAINS!

Edited by Luminare
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From their webpage...

 

"How will I get around when I get to the station?"

 

From the stations, you will easily be able to rent a car, be picked-up by a family member, friend or colleague, hail a cab, or access public transportation such as the DART in Dallas or Houston's Metro. These convenient locations also mean that you will be a short walk, Uber or taxi ride away from your final destination.

 

LOL notice how they remain silent on Houston's light rail.

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Some new info on the HSR would be great.  

 

And yes, i will admit that I have a strong dislike for buses.  Not that i don't see the utility of them, I just didn't get super excited about the "reimagined" routes because to me, and probably me only, it seems like Metro is patting themselves on the back and the satisfaction with their new plan will inhibit planning future rail projects. 

 

Just my two cents, not trying to spur an argument over buses, haha. 

 

I would honestly try them! I do think the next step is dedicated bus lanes in more places around the city, but it really is a major improvement! But back to TRAINS....because its a sub-forum on TRAINS! LOL

From their webpage...

 

"How will I get around when I get to the station?"

 

From the stations, you will easily be able to rent a car, be picked-up by a family member, friend or colleague, hail a cab, or access public transportation such as the DART in Dallas or Houston's Metro. These convenient locations also mean that you will be a short walk, Uber or taxi ride away from your final destination.

 

LOL notice how they remain silent on Houston's light rail.

 

Our light rail doesn't have its own name....its all under Metro. Are you a real person?

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Source?

 

Sorry, when I said so far as I know, what I meant was: This is what I've heard. Additionally, I've read this over a year ago, so it is possible that since I have read/heard this information that it may have changed.

 

It was just a lot shorter to write 'so far as I know'.

 

do you have a source that says that they are no longer considering a downtown Houston site? I would be happy to be provided with updated information!

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Really? Have you never heard of METRORail?

 

METRORail Red?

METRORail Purple?

METRORail Green?

 

Do you even ride the rail?

 

You do know that DART is also their bus system? Do you even ride DART?

 

http://www.dart.org/schedules/schedules.asp?zeon=bus

 

Look I even provided a source!

 

EDIT: It literally says DART Buses, DART Rail, and Trinity Express! There you go....you don't even need to click!

Edited by Luminare
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You do know that DART also is their bus system? Do you even ride DART?

 

http://www.dart.org/schedules/schedules.asp?zeon=bus

 

Look I even provided a source!

 

EDIT: It literally says DART Buses, DART Rail, and Trinity Express! There you go....you don't even need to click!

 

I will admit I am not a DART expert.

 

But it looks like their first choice of Dallas stations is an empty lot on the DARTrail lines. Do any DART busses go near the proposed Dallas station? I don't know, like I said I'm not a DART expert but it looks like only dart trains. So maybe the website was inferring dart trains? When I hear DART I think of trains but I suppose we can agree to disagree on that. But when I hear Metro and not specifically metro rail, then I only think busses.

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I will admit I am not a DART expert.

 

But it looks like their first choice of Dallas stations is an empty lot on the DARTrail lines. Do any DART busses go near the proposed Dallas station? I don't know, like I said I'm not a DART expert but it looks like only dart trains. So maybe the website was inferring dart trains? When I hear DART I think of trains but I suppose we can agree to disagree on that. But when I hear Metro and not specifically metro rail, then I only think busses.

 

Thats such one-dimensional thinking....you seriously don't think that their bus system doesn't at all connect with their rail system? Who does that? You don't have to be native to make the logical step in thinking to say that with confidence...yes they do connect and I'm sure there are buses at Union Station in Dallas and this is coming from someone who doesn't live in Dallas, but then again I'm actually using my brain...

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Thats such one-dimensional thinking....you seriously don't think that their bus system doesn't at all connect with their rail system? Who does that? You don't have to be native to make the logical step in thinking to say that with confidence...yes they do connect and I'm sure there are buses at Union Station in Dallas and this is coming from someone who doesn't live in Dallas, but then again I'm actually using my brain...

 

Have you ever traveled on businesses?

 

Are you saying a business traveler would exit the HSR station in Dallas, take a DART train then take a DART bus to his final destination?

 

no one is going to reinvent the wheel. People will leave the station like they do any airport in any major city and get picked up by a friend, hail a taxi, get an Uber and/or maybe take DART rail.

 

Maybe having the Houston station on our light rail in in downtown is what the developers originally wanted but maybe the true costs are making them think else where. I don't know, but the station does not have to connect to every known mode of transportation to make a profit. Easy parking, quick pickup are what business travelers want.

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Have you ever traveled on businesses?

 

Are you saying a business traveler would exit the HSR station in Dallas, take a DART train then take a DART bus to his final destination?

 

no one is going to reinvent the wheel. People will leave the station like they do any airport in any major city and get picked up by a friend, hail a taxi, get an Uber and/or maybe take DART rail.

 

Maybe having the Houston station on our light rail in in downtown is what the developers originally wanted but maybe the true costs are making them think else where. I don't know, but the station does not have to connect to every known mode of transportation to make a profit. Easy parking, quick pickup are what business travelers want.

 

Since you like sources:

 

Here is a Downtown system map for DART's Buses which connects to each rail station via various routes.

 

https://www.dart.org/maps/pdfmaps/downtowndallasmap17aug15.pdf

 

Lets follow this logic...you say that Buses are such a great option and a very popular option, but then you ask who in their right mind would take a bus to their final destination? This statement also makes you quite the elitist making bold claims that business people are a class that seemingly defies all travel conventions.

 

I also find it amazing that people seem to think that HSR will just have one single pricing. Trains work on the same principle in regards to pricing just like airplanes. You have your First Class and then Business Class and Economy. What a novel concept! Stratified pricing!

 

Why reinvent the wheel when I can pull a dozen or so real world examples. Maybe I should tell you about how I'm getting to my Hostel once I'm in Berlin. I'm literally interchanging from different modes of transit which are all interconnected and depend upon one another. I will be landing at an Airport then Taking a Bus to a Train and then Walking to the Hostel.

 

Everyone makes these kinds of connections every single day not only in Berlin...but any city that has multiple and stratified modes of transportation.

 

I actually disagree with SlickVik....you need to go to a Debate class!

Edited by Luminare
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Exactly.  Can you imagine on riding the train all the way from Dallas and then having to take a taxi or rent a car because there is no place to walk to or decent transit options?

 

That's the MO of most big airports, with rail access being either very new or still out of the question. If the TCR was meant for business travelers, as is repeated by both sides of this argument, usually the "transportation" issue is picked by a hotel shuttle.

 

If you're talking about riders from the Smithlands station to the TMC, that's exactly my point. They ride for a station or two and get off. It's a park and ride. There are park and riders and homeless people on the light rail. Of course there are exceptions but that's the bulk.  If they could they would park in their respective hospital but they can't so they park in the surface lot across from smithlands and ride for a station or two.

 

I almost feel like ridership numbers for our light rail should eliminate the numbers from the smithlands station. That station must inflate numbers by the thousands. The only reason they ride is because parking is limited in the TMC and their companies subsidize the parking and Qcards.

 

That's not a total knock on our light rail. It is popular as a park and ride for upper middle class riders from the med center. Which is to say people like their cars but hate expensive parking. A HSR station in the NW mall parking lot makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

So you both praise the light rail as being popular with the upper middle class riders but also a free ride for the homeless? This is why Luminare and others don't take you seriously.

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If Northwest Mall wasn't a good site because of its lack of connections to rail, what if the final agreement included some sort of light rail along the Washington corridor (along the freight line, not through the road) that would connect it to downtown? Would it be a decent compromise?

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So you both praise the light rail as being popular with the upper middle class riders but also a free ride for the homeless? This is why Luminare and others don't take you seriously.

 

Well there are multiple stations on the line. The homeless love the red line between Preston station and Wheeler station. TMC commuters like it between Smithlands and Herman hospital (I forgot the station name).

 

My girlfriend is a doctor at Methodist. She lives at IMT apartments across from Reliant Park station. She routinely takes the rail from her apt to Dryden. Some of her colleagues who live in the burbs park at smithlands and ride Dryden. I live in Downtown, my girldfriend would never ride the rail all the way into downtown. She would rather drive. Too many homeless people for too much time. It's one thing for a station or two it's another for 40 minutes.

 

I ride the rail almost everyday. I also ride the bus almost everyday. I live in downtown. If others don't want to take me seriously that doesn't bother me much, but I'm not going to ignore my observations either.

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That's a false assumption. There are thousands of BUS riders who are forced to use the light rail. They chose to start there mode of transportation on a different mode but are then forced to transfer to something else.

If it makes you feel better knowing the ridership numbers are high because of the busses that feed it and the park and riders who can't find parking, well I hope that gives you comfort. But luckily the investors of this HSR care more about profit than a warm happy feeling. They will make wise business decisions because that's the obligation they owe their investors, contrast that versus putting a light rail or bus line where policy makers deem it more popular or HAIFers for that matter.

That's how any system with rail works, buses feed into the rail

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