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MaxConcrete

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Finally, I found a new use for the Astrodome - high speed rail station (this is Shanghai South Station)

 

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ummmm, **** yes!

 

 

Astrodome is way to big, but finally someone who isn't afraid to think big! Keep it up.

 

It would fill up quick though, it would contain the parking, car rental, regional heliport, Houston sports museum, Houston railroad museum, an indoor park, and a mall to rival the Galleria.

 

The heliport would be a bond-esque kind of thing. the roof of the dome would need to be redesigned to allow for a huge diaphram, or iris (I'm imagining a huge lens aperture) that opens to allow helicopters to land inside the dome.

Edited by samagon
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Astrodome is way to big, but finally someone who isn't afraid to think big! Keep it up.

 

The Astrodome is 710 feet in diameter and 183 feet tall, while that South Station is 885 feet in diameter and 154 feet tall, the Astrodome is obviously too small  :P

 

Really it is a bit big for one train, but it has plenty of parking, lots of empty land for facilities (Astroworld) and is connected to public transit.  The only problem is getting the train all the way around Houston to there

ummmm, **** yes!

 

 
 

It would fill up quick though, it would contain the parking, car rental, regional heliport, Houston sports museum, Houston railroad museum, an indoor park, and a mall to rival the Galleria.

 

The heliport would be a bond-esque kind of thing. the roof of the dome would need to be redesigned to allow for a huge diaphram, or iris (I'm imagining a huge lens aperture) that opens to allow helicopters to land inside the dome.

 

The heliport is how you get quick travel times to Energy Corridor and the Galleria!  Nice thinking

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It's pretty clear a downtown site is superior to the NW mall site by every metric outside of cost.  

 

The only reason we are even discussing this is because TCR proposed NW Mall because it'd be a lot cheaper.  Downtown is a lot more central and more accessible. 

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Honestly, 102IAHexpress does kind of have a point, in that it's not necessarily downtown Houston to downtown Dallas, and I have a good feeling that the reason why some of you are discounting the NW Mall site idea is because of the idea is that Dallas built their station downtown, and if it's placed at NW Mall, it makes Houston look cheap in comparison (there was something like that discussed pages before). If Dallas hadn't placed their station downtown, would you be so quick to demand a station downtown as part of an unspoken arms race?

As for travel times, I think the "time without traffic" is a little misleading. Don't the downtown highways tend to get more clogged than most during rush hours? I checked one of your numbers yesterday afternoon (or the day before), and the travel time was twice your listed number because of the rush hour situation.

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Honestly, 102IAHexpress does kind of have a point, in that it's not necessarily downtown Houston to downtown Dallas, and I have a good feeling that the reason why some of you are discounting the NW Mall site idea is because of the idea is that Dallas built their station downtown, and if it's placed at NW Mall, it makes Houston look cheap in comparison (there was something like that discussed pages before). If Dallas hadn't placed their station downtown, would you be so quick to demand a station downtown as part of an unspoken arms race?

As for travel times, I think the "time without traffic" is a little misleading. Don't the downtown highways tend to get more clogged than most during rush hours? I checked one of your numbers yesterday afternoon (or the day before), and the travel time was twice your listed number because of the rush hour situation.

Seriously? The West Loop is probably the most congested freeway in town. And I did not use "without traffic" numbers. I did the calculations with traffic at the time (mid-morning).

 

If you look at rush hour traffic times you'll get similar results.  There is no case to be made that the Northwest Mall site is better for serving the largest destinations or the most destinations in Houston.  Just looking at connections to the various destinations by car, the Post Office site is the hands-down winner.  If you add in the added benefit the Post Office site provides by accessibility to transit and the ability to walk to good portions of downtown, it's no contest.  (There may be other factors supportive of the Northwest Mall site, e.g., land cost, cost to build the rail into downtown; but providing the best accessibility to the most destinations is not a factor that favors the Northwest Mall site.)

 

The Post Office site is more convenient to :

 

Downtown 

Museum District

Texas Medical Centern (and by extension NRG Park)

NASA/Clear Lake/Kemah

Galveston

The Woodlands/Exxon Mobil/Springwoods Village/Conroe

Greenway Plaza

Pearland

Baytown (and by extension, the Beaumont/Port Arthur region)

 

The Northwest Mall site is more convenient to :

The Galleria/Uptown

Sugar Land

Katy/Energy Corridor

Cypress

Edited by Houston19514
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Downtown is actually fairly easy to get in and out of once you learn the street grid. Also this grid makes it remarkably efficient to exit as well since there are so many roads that you can take to get out not just one.

Give me a break nothing is going to convince you. The major disruption is the freight that's already there HSR is much less disruptive and quiet. All I hear from your neighbors is NIMBY ignorance and fear of the unknown.

 

Vik, just how does HSR get downtown without disrupting the existing freight lines? Do you really think UP or BNSF will put up with that disruption? There are no good routes to downtown except, possibly, along I-10, and that assumes TxDOT would be amenable. I have not seen a single viable plan to get HSR trains into Downtown.

 

 

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When did they say that? I don't remember seeing anything specific about the downtowns.

 

On TCR's website in the "Learn the Facts" section there is question saying "where will the stations be" and it says that the stations will be "convenient" to downtown Dallas and Houston.  I guess depending on how you word that you could say that they are saying "downtown Dallas" and "Houston" by itself. 

 

BUT, they do make a point to mention that it will be convenient to Houston's METRO system, which the NW Mall site certainly will not accomplish. 

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Unless they work together with METRO to coincide an opening of a HSR terminal with a light rail extension. 

 

That's not going to happen either, as there's no good way to get light rail out there. There aren't many streets wide enough for light rail between Downtown and Northwest Mall. So, buses it is.

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That's not going to happen either, as there's no good way to get light rail out there. There aren't many streets wide enough for light rail between Downtown and Northwest Mall. So, buses it is.

 

I agree that that isn't going to happen, but you can get light rail wherever you want it, it is not restricted to being at-grade in the middle of a street. 

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That's not going to happen either, as there's no good way to get light rail out there. There aren't many streets wide enough for light rail between Downtown and Northwest Mall. So, buses it is.

 

Um, Washington to Old Katy to N. Post Oak? Something that's been a rail corridor since the 1890s?

 

If people spent as much time and energy solving problems as coming up with them, I'm pretty sure we'd have teleporters by now  :P

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Um, Washington to Old Katy to N. Post Oak? Something that's been a rail corridor since the 1890s?

 

If people spent as much time and energy solving problems as coming up with them, I'm pretty sure we'd have teleporters by now  :P

 

Need the doubters just as much as you need the believers. There would be no motivation to improve or show what can be possible if there were no doubters. I use it as fuel to try harder and think of even more ways it can be possible.

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That's not going to happen either, as there's no good way to get light rail out there. There aren't many streets wide enough for light rail between Downtown and Northwest Mall. So, buses it is.

Jesus quit with your negativity. No no no it's not possible. We get it you're stuck in your ways and hate rail transit and love cars.

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Jesus quit with your negativity. No no no it's not possible. We get it you're stuck in your ways and hate rail transit and love cars.

I am not necessarily against rail, but putting rail down Washington removes capacity from a major thoroughfare with few alternates. Center might work as a path for rail, but buses would be a lot cheaper and far more flexible.

I don't think we really need more rail, at least not as implemented by Metro. I also think you are overestimating the popularity of light rail with business travelers. They tend to prefer cars or taxis, so they don't have to mix with the rabble.

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I am not necessarily against rail, but putting rail down Washington removes capacity from a major thoroughfare with few alternates. Center might work as a path for rail, but buses would be a lot cheaper and far more flexible.

I don't think we really need more rail, at least not as implemented by Metro. I also think you are overestimating the popularity of light rail with business travelers. They tend to prefer cars or taxis, so they don't have to mix with the rabble.

I think you underestimate the rail effect as compared to buses. There is a significant segment of the population that would ride rail that refuses to ride the local bus. And for those that would ride either the bus or train, the train is reliable and extremely frequent two things the buses usually are not.

And I don't care if one thoroughfare is removed people can find alternative routes. Allen parkway and center and memorial are all parallel to Washington I'm tired of this city pandering to drivers and saying to hell with everyone else. Deal with it and find an alternative if Washington has light rail.

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I suspect if they put light rail down Washington, they would still want to keep it at 4 car lanes, as well as have left turning wells (similar to what Scott street was rebuilt as).  This would mean condemning enough land for the road expansion - I don't know if the right of way is currently wide enough to put the equivalent of a 7 lane road in (4 car + 2 light rail + median/turning lane/station).  That being said, it would be nice to start building light rail lines that go to major destinations again (Galleria? Either airport?)

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Jesus quit with your negativity. No no no it's not possible. We get it you're stuck in your ways and hate rail transit and love cars.

 

What's so negative about his comment? Seems like you're negative on busses. Public transpiration is more than just trains. Don't get stuck on your ways of overlooking the popularity of busses in this city, especially with commuters.

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On TCR's website in the "Learn the Facts" section there is question saying "where will the stations be" and it says that the stations will be "convenient" to downtown Dallas and Houston.  I guess depending on how you word that you could say that they are saying "downtown Dallas" and "Houston" by itself. 

 

BUT, they do make a point to mention that it will be convenient to Houston's METRO system, which the NW Mall site certainly will not accomplish.

I think you're stretching it. Right now, TCR is still kind of vague on where they want the stations. I'm sure they meant "convenient to downtown Houston" but Houston is a big place, and that may be in relative. NW Mall, or even Uptown, as many have pointed out, is a whole lot closer to the downtown than anything on the Beltway or beyond, like Cypress or The Woodlands. Secondly, "convenient to Houston's METRO system" is not necessarily referring to METRORail, either. I'm guessing that they're covering all their bases by carefully wording that sort of thing.

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I'm pretty sure we've discussed rail down the Washington corridor before, and usually the result is if anyone brought up freight rail corridors (active or defunct) for light rail use, they would be shot down by self-professed pro-rail fans as having low ridership, even if the "street running" is far slower and would be rather ineffective even getting to the rim of the Loop. At least that was the thoughts about the Richmond vs. Westpark rail corridor.

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I am not necessarily against rail, but putting rail down Washington removes capacity from a major thoroughfare with few alternates. Center might work as a path for rail, but buses would be a lot cheaper and far more flexible.

I don't think we really need more rail, at least not as implemented by Metro. I also think you are overestimating the popularity of light rail with business travelers. They tend to prefer cars or taxis, so they don't have to mix with the rabble.

 

Washington has both I-10 and Memorial Drive within a half mile for moving high-speed arterial traffic. Washington is one of the few arterials in Houston where there actually is sufficient redundancy to reduce capacity.

 

Look, I understand - you don't like rail. That's fine. But specious arguments don't get any of us anywhere.

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On the bus v train debate, my experience is that buses cater to those that do not have a car and need them for mobility. Trains cater to those who prefer the consistency and ease of use. Yes I'm generalizing and yes there are exceptions.

As a business traveler, colleagues and I take rail when it's available, but not buses. Even in a city like Chicago, it's train and walk or if the walk is too far/too cold we hail a cab.

I'd be quite happy to see light rail down the washington corridor. And I'm the same person who has no desire to see the HSR go down that same corridor.

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On the bus v train debate, my experience is that buses cater to those that do not have a car and need them for mobility. Trains cater to those who prefer the consistency and ease of use. Yes I'm generalizing and yes there are exceptions.

 

 

Perhaps true for cities with a heavy rail option. Houston has no heavy rail, so I'm not sure that argument furthers our discussion. In Houston our light rail caters mostly to homeless people and people who park their car near a station and ride for a station or two to their final destination. In Houston commuter busses are very popular. The park and ride system works well. Perhaps that's what the HSR station in Houston will be like?

 

And It's ASLO my experience that business travelers prefer taxi's and Uber, which is to say they prefer cars once they get off the train or plane.

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Perhaps true for cities with a heavy rail option. Houston has no heavy rail, so I'm not sure that argument furthers our discussion. In Houston our light rail caters mostly to homeless people and people who park their car near a station and ride for a station or two to their final destination. In Houston commuter busses are very popular. The park and ride system works well. Perhaps that's what the HSR station in Houston will be like?

 

And It's ASLO my experience that business travelers prefer taxi's and Uber, which is to say they prefer cars once they get off the train or plane.

 

A lot of homeless seem to be wearing scrubs and hospital ID badges or brand new backpacks  :P

 

I feel like a lot of it depends on who the business traveler is, what they're doing there for business (a day meeting is different than coming for OTC), and where they grew up (a New Yorker might be more likely to take the train than someone from Omaha).  Train systems are more inviting to the visitor, because they have simpler maps and large obvious routes.  

 

The whole idea is giving the choice.  If it's possible to give the choice for travel, people will use what is most convenient for them and comfortable for them.

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A lot of homeless seem to be wearing scrubs and hospital ID badges or brand new backpacks  :P

 

 

If you're talking about riders from the Smithlands station to the TMC, that's exactly my point. They ride for a station or two and get off. It's a park and ride. There are park and riders and homeless people on the light rail. Of course there are exceptions but that's the bulk.  If they could they would park in their respective hospital but they can't so they park in the surface lot across from smithlands and ride for a station or two.

 

I almost feel like ridership numbers for our light rail should eliminate the numbers from the smithlands station. That station must inflate numbers by the thousands. The only reason they ride is because parking is limited in the TMC and their companies subsidize the parking and Qcards.

 

That's not a total knock on our light rail. It is popular as a park and ride for upper middle class riders from the med center. Which is to say people like their cars but hate expensive parking. A HSR station in the NW mall parking lot makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

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If you're talking about riders from the Smithlands station to the TMC, that's exactly my point. They ride for a station or two and get off. It's a park and ride. There are park and riders and homeless people on the light rail. Of course there are exceptions but that's the bulk.  If they could they would park in their respective hospital but they can't so they park in the surface lot across from smithlands and ride for a station or two.

 

I almost feel like ridership numbers for our light rail should eliminate the numbers from the smithlands station. That station must inflate numbers by the thousands. The only reason they ride is because parking is limited in the TMC and their companies subsidize the parking and Qcards.

 

That's not a total knock on our light rail. It is popular as a park and ride for upper middle class riders from the med center. Which is to say people like their cars but hate expensive parking. A HSR station in the NW mall parking lot makes a lot of sense from a business perspective.

 

Ridership is inflated because people are using the line?

 

We should eliminate the numbers because too many people are using a particular segment of the line?

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Ridership is inflated because people are using the line?

 

We should eliminate the numbers because too many people are using a particular segment of the line?

 

To a certain extent yes. The smithland riders commuted using their cars. They would have parked a lot closer in or near the front of their hospital if they could but they can't.

 

It's like in the old days of the Astrodome, where you would park your car and then one of those long golf carts would pick you up and give you a ride to the front entrance. It's not like they went there looking to ride the long golf cart. It's more like sorry there's no more parking up front, but don't worry we will give you a ride to the front...

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