Texas Central Project

[ADCS]

I attended last night as well, and most of your assessments were right on. I also noticed that the majority of comments were NIMBY-ish in nature, which is surprising given the reported acceptance in the Dallas meeting.

 

I did agree with the civil engineers' concern about the adaptability of Shinkansen technology to FRA regulations. In particular, if tracks are shared with either the BNSF or UP lines at any point, the use of the technology will be impossible, as FRA weight requirements will not be met with the technology as it exists.

 

Several comments were made about adapting the project to have a commuter component. While I'm firmly in support of commuter rail, I did think that the forum was inappropriate for the discussion of those projects, since TCR wouldn't be involved at all, nor ought it to be given the requirements of a high-speed corridor. However, the FRA representative did indicate that connectivity would be a large consideration when it came to route recommendations; I'd imagine routes would be less favored if they removed the possibility of future commuter rail along the same corridor.

 

I was somewhat perplexed at the strong opposition that many Rice Military residents had presented, given that they already live near an operating rail line whose equipment is much noisier than that being proposed here. Further concerns about takings seem unwarranted given the high property value of the area; any option that involved purchasing or expropriation would likely not be cost-effective.

 

However, given the above, it seems that a downtown station is much less likely than a Northwest Mall location. Political opposition from an affluent area, along with last-mile cost considerations, make it much more difficult to get to downtown Houston. This is in particular contrast to Dallas, where the line would run through lower-income areas within the urbanized zone.

[houstontexasjack]

Disappointing to see the difficulty that Downtown Houston faces for a station. I do tend to think that, in order to be viable, Downtown to Downtown is essential.

 

A northwest station, although linking to a possible transit hub, does not have the sex appeal of a Downtown station

[mollusk]

Responding to the question about how the HSR cuts off access when it's in an existing ROW - 

 

The infrastructure in utility rights of way is up in the air and/or underground, unless it's a canal.  At most, you might have to go through a couple gates to cross it - and many utility ROWs aren't even separately fenced out in the boonies.  A high speed rail line will have to be isolated from the adjacent property so that livestock doesn't come wandering onto it; my understanding is that there aren't even at grade crossings in the high speed area for safety reasons.

[morrchr1]

Responding to the question about how the HSR cuts off access when it's in an existing ROW - 

 

The infrastructure in utility rights of way is up in the air and/or underground, unless it's a canal.  At most, you might have to go through a couple gates to cross it - and many utility ROWs aren't even separately fenced out in the boonies.  A high speed rail line will have to be isolated from the adjacent property so that livestock doesn't come wandering onto it; my understanding is that there aren't even at grade crossings in the high speed area for safety reasons.

 

I understand how it could cut in half by the use of the Utility line, though if no more property is taken how much claim do they have (not sure exactly how the property works with the utility line ie do the land owners just lease the use or is that actually owned by the utility operator)?  This concern was particularly brought up by multilpile people concerning the BANSF line, thus my confusion.

[Luminare]

Responding to the question about how the HSR cuts off access when it's in an existing ROW - 

 

The infrastructure in utility rights of way is up in the air and/or underground, unless it's a canal.  At most, you might have to go through a couple gates to cross it - and many utility ROWs aren't even separately fenced out in the boonies.  A high speed rail line will have to be isolated from the adjacent property so that livestock doesn't come wandering onto it; my understanding is that there aren't even at grade crossings in the high speed area for safety reasons.

 

What I've seen in other countries, especially during my time in Germany and Italy is that the people laying the rail will make accommodations like underpasses going below grade at various points on whoever property they are crossing. I actually think that this is a relatively non-issue but is being overstated like many concerns are. It's a concern, but it's not enough to shoot down a whole rail line or even a proposed route. It simply needs attention and cooperation between both parties. In terms of environment impact the biggest will be migratory patterns of various wild life. This is what I think might make a route going through Huntsville harder because there is simply way more forest than in the Brazos Valley. Again though it shouldnt kill any routes or overall plans it just needs understanding and cooperation to execute.

 

I attended last night as well, and most of your assessments were right on. I also noticed that the majority of comments were NIMBY-ish in nature, which is surprising given the reported acceptance in the Dallas meeting.

 

I did agree with the civil engineers' concern about the adaptability of Shinkansen technology to FRA regulations. In particular, if tracks are shared with either the BNSF or UP lines at any point, the use of the technology will be impossible, as FRA weight requirements will not be met with the technology as it exists.

 

Several comments were made about adapting the project to have a commuter component. While I'm firmly in support of commuter rail, I did think that the forum was inappropriate for the discussion of those projects, since TCR wouldn't be involved at all, nor ought it to be given the requirements of a high-speed corridor. However, the FRA representative did indicate that connectivity would be a large consideration when it came to route recommendations; I'd imagine routes would be less favored if they removed the possibility of future commuter rail along the same corridor.

 

I was somewhat perplexed at the strong opposition that many Rice Military residents had presented, given that they already live near an operating rail line whose equipment is much noisier than that being proposed here. Further concerns about takings seem unwarranted given the high property value of the area; any option that involved purchasing or expropriation would likely not be cost-effective.

 

However, given the above, it seems that a downtown station is much less likely than a Northwest Mall location. Political opposition from an affluent area, along with last-mile cost considerations, make it much more difficult to get to downtown Houston. This is in particular contrast to Dallas, where the line would run through lower-income areas within the urbanized zone.

 

I think of Rice Military as another Afton Oaks, but instead of ranch style suburban homes, insert townhomes. I think they project an affluence that isn't as big as they think. Instead they just have a louder voice than others around them. Aside from them??? Not THAT much of a last mile cost. I think we are once again projecting past perceptions and perceived costs that might not even exist. There is certainly a growth going on in Rice Military and deeper into downtown, but not to where it will escalate land values significantly. Seriously look at maps though of the areas surrounding the current rail line that passes that area and you will see you are still running through some of the poorest areas of town (this is whether you are approaching it from the west or the north!) The only way an option going downtown might get squeezed is if they fail to get the land at which the station will stop at. The two places will be the Post Office Site, or Hardy Yards. I think that with the continued progressive nature of current and possible future City governments it would be financially smart to sell off that land for something they would get back immense returns. Hardy is simply open land and just needs to be acquired.

 

In response to the concern with grade rail that would be used here. I can't get around such narrow thinking. They would probably keep whatever rail that is there now for existing train traffic and then build new rail using new track because it requires a completely different system/grade of track. I just thinks it's funny how a world can not exist where both rails co-habitat on the same area.

 

I will finally add that NW Mall location isn't really that bad, in fact it would be a great spot, but I think that they will keep that station open ended for later additions to downtown if they want to continue on later. Lets not remember that what gets approved here isn't the final rail line that ever gets or has a chance of going here. It's only the beginning. It's going to have some misunderstanding, some contention, and a lot a lot of worries about things that are, in the end, very small.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Luminare

[mollusk]

I understand how it could cut in half by the use of the Utility line, though if no more property is taken how much claim do they have (not sure exactly how the property works with the utility line ie do the land owners just lease the use or is that actually owned by the utility operator)?  This concern was particularly brought up by multilpile people concerning the BANSF line, thus my confusion.

 

It's about access.  

 

From a farmer or rancher's standpoint, a power line or gas line ROW might as well be invisible.  A regular railroad track will likely be in the way, since they're generally fenced, but they also have at grade crossings for minor roads and driveways, often protected only by an unlit crossbuck.  That, and most of them have been in place for upwards of 100 years.  However, the high speed rail ROW needs to be isolated for safety reasons, and that means no more grade crossings thrown about with abandon.  The fear is that it's going to be in effect the Great Wall of China East Texas, even though (as others point out) there are accommodations that can be and are made.  But even with accommodations, there's going to be what the law calls a "taking." Those whose property rights are taken (including the right of access) should be and are compensated.

 

Similar arguments get made whenever a highway is built from scratch or rerouted.

Edited October 30, 2014 by mollusk

[Luminare]

It's about access.  

 

From a farmer or rancher's standpoint, a power line or gas line ROW might as well be invisible.  A regular railroad track will likely be in the way, since they're generally fenced, but they also have at grade crossings for minor roads and driveways, often protected only by an unlit crossbuck.  That, and most of them have been in place for upwards of 100 years.  However, the high speed rail ROW needs to be isolated for safety reasons, and that means no more grade crossings thrown about with abandon.  The fear is that it's going to be in effect the Great Wall of China East Texas, even though (as others point out) there are accommodations that can be and are made.  But even with accommodations, there's going to be what the law calls a "taking." Those whose property rights are taken (including the right of access) should be and are compensated.

 

Similar arguments get made whenever a highway is built from scratch or rerouted.

 

Correct on all counts. Even driveways that go over the current rail line would also have to go under the rail line or over it. It's too dangerous to have free running, whether it be animal, human, or vehicle. In the grand scheme these are minor inconveniences, but at the end of the day the company will do whatever it needs to do to appease these property owners because guess what....they will already be planning the next rail line once this is underway!

 

I also wanted to add one more thing to what I posted earlier. Lets remember that it's important that this is a private company that is planning this out instead of a government entity. This won't be the only high speed (or even rail line period that they build). Maybe it does only get to NW Mall, but it would be silly to think that they won't keep an extension in mind or in planning so it can be built later. Having a successful business is about having successive goals down the line and knowing how you are going to expand your market. They know that even at the costs it will be more cost effective overall if it is at Downtown or they have a plan to get all the way to downtown eventually because that's going to put more butts in seats.

[ADCS]

I didn't get the impression that access was primary concern.

 

To me, it seemed like the biggest objection was over a project that would overwhelmingly benefit the big cities, while primarily impacting the countryside in what they saw as a negative way. There was lot of rural animus over urban hegemony, as evidenced by the outraged Waller County constituency, even though only 12 miles of the railroad would lie within Waller County bounds in the utility corridor (Gold Line).

[cloud713]

Great points about the nw mall not necessarily being the end of the line/final plan. I know many of us would not only like to see it make it to downtown, but even further, all the way out to Galveston.

[houstontexasjack]

I've thought the post office site would make for an excellent site for a railway station. If properly marketed, office space constructed above a state-of-the art rail station with accompanying retail could have appeal. Think of St. Pancras station in London with a tower similar to the Transbay tower over it. Unfortunately, such a station would require a partnership with a far-seeing developer with the patience wait for the construction and preparation of the remainder of the line. 

[mkultra25]

I've thought the post office site would make for an excellent site for a railway station.

 

Well, it was the site of two successive railway stations between 1886 and 1959 - almost twenty years longer than it's housed the post office to date. 

 

 

http://www.fieldtripper.com/c/WVISNcg0wA4/the-demolition-of-houstons-grand-central-station-1959

[Luminare]

I've thought the post office site would make for an excellent site for a railway station. If properly marketed, office space constructed above a state-of-the art rail station with accompanying retail could have appeal. Think of St. Pancras station in London with a tower similar to the Transbay tower over it. Unfortunately, such a station would require a partnership with a far-seeing developer with the patience wait for the construction and preparation of the remainder of the line. 

 

You would be surprised that when the vision is that big, and the payday is bigger than what immediate returns they think they would make if they flipped it quickly, how patient they can be. I think sometimes we jump on developers a little too quickly. A project like this of this size will also, most likely, seek foreign investment. Foreign investors, because they aren't wrapped up in local affairs and probably have other interests else where want their properties to be developed in the best and biggest way possible. Of course we don't know where TCR will pull investment from (especially since such a project is very unprecedented).

 

In fact this is an interesting topic of discussion. Who else knows of any recent privately funded railways of this magnitude?? I really don't have any. Companies of course will do work on the project and provide stuff, but usually they are all handled by local, state, or federal government. This is probably the biggest push for new rail line by a private entity in DECADES!!! Pretty profound stuff happening here and has wide reaching implications going into the future. Lets give TCR credit for even getting this far! I mean this isn't some pipe dream anymore. It's a legitimate enterprise. Once we start getting more info in terms of financial backing, then it will become official to many. Whatever we continue to speculate on, lets remember that we are pushing into uncharted territory, realm of the unknown, etc... Sure we have examples of rail lines from the past, but this is a very different situation.

[ADCS]

I've thought the post office site would make for an excellent site for a railway station. If properly marketed, office space constructed above a state-of-the art rail station with accompanying retail could have appeal. Think of St. Pancras station in London with a tower similar to the Transbay tower over it. Unfortunately, such a station would require a partnership with a far-seeing developer with the patience wait for the construction and preparation of the remainder of the line. 

 

As mkultra25 alluded to, it could be our Grand Central Station at that location:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_(Amtrak_station)

[BigFootsSocks]

I didn't get the impression that access was primary concern.

To me, it seemed like the biggest objection was over a project that would overwhelmingly benefit the big cities, while primarily impacting the countryside in what they saw as a negative way. There was lot of rural animus over urban hegemony, as evidenced by the outraged Waller County constituency, even though only 12 miles of the railroad would lie within Waller County bounds in the utility corridor (Gold Line).

I don't see the logic behind this argument though. For those people complaining about "the big city" encroaching on their farm, they couldn't be any more selfish and ignorant. To try to prevent incredible progress for almost 10 million people just because they might hear a train shoot past them at 200mph for maybe 10 seconds has to be the most arrogant and foolish thing I've heard. Especially if the land simply is extended out from the utility line. It's not like it's cutting property in half that's already cut by te utility line.

Sometimes rural people really get on my nerves with this simple-minded "me me me" bullshit.

[cloud713]

I've thought the post office site would make for an excellent site for a railway station. If properly marketed, office space constructed above a state-of-the art rail station with accompanying retail could have appeal. Think of St. Pancras station in London with a tower similar to the Transbay tower over it. Unfortunately, such a station would require a partnership with a far-seeing developer with the patience wait for the construction and preparation of the remainder of the line.

Yeah, the post office site or hardy yards have a lot of potential.. If they ever do make it into downtown the tcr developers have indicated that they plan on developing out the areas around their stations.

[ADCS]

I don't see the logic behind this argument though. For those people complaining about "the big city" encroaching on their farm, they couldn't be any more selfish and ignorant. To try to prevent incredible progress for almost 10 million people just because they might hear a train shoot past them at 200mph for maybe 10 seconds has to be the most arrogant and foolish thing I've heard. Especially if the land simply is extended out from the utility line. It's not like it's cutting property in half that's already cut by te utility line.

Sometimes rural people really get on my nerves with this simple-minded "me me me" bullshit.

 

I don't disagree that it's shortsighted, but another part of it is that it's being seen as an imposition of foreign technology on rural areas that they didn't ask for. One comment was made that while trains might be good for the Japanese, Texans like trucks.

 

We all chuckled at that, but there's no doubt that these are very deeply felt sentiments.

 

One of the things that I did not understand was the strong concern with the lack of notice. There are clear legal requirements for notice that appear to have been met, but some of the attendees would not have been happy with anything short of someone going around and knocking on every door within a 30 mile radius of the line, and leaving materials. Needless to say, this would be an extraordinarily unreasonable request.

[Luminare]

I don't disagree that it's shortsighted, but another part of it is that it's being seen as an imposition of foreign technology on rural areas that they didn't ask for. One comment was made that while trains might be good for the Japanese, Texans like trucks.

 

We all chuckled at that, but there's no doubt that these are very deeply felt sentiments.

 

One of the things that I did not understand was the strong concern with the lack of notice. There are clear legal requirements for notice that appear to have been met, but some of the attendees would not have been happy with anything short of someone going around and knocking on every door within a 30 mile radius of the line, and leaving materials. Needless to say, this would be an extraordinarily unreasonable request.

 

First off, "Texans like trucks" I could say so many expletives to this....ugh!!! I'm sure their father and his father before them were like, 'What's an automobile? Nothing beats an old horse and buggy!" These are also the same kind of people that oppose the mechanization of farming, but now they all use it! I'm sure they miss all the hard labor that was extremely expensive. It's not like they already get subsides just like other industries do. Etc... Etc....

 

I have a lot of respect for farmers and those who like living in rural areas I really really do, they are wonderful people who have great perspectives on life, but this is just....UGHHHHH!!!!

 

The second is the door to door thing. Man first thing we are doing is telling the next Governor to bring wifi to ever single part of Texas so everyone has internet >.< !!!!

 

Ok I know some of this sounds terrible probably lol Been a late night at work. This was the icing on the cake xD

[Luminare]

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/innovation/10-23-14-speeding-forward-205-mph-bullet-train-between-houston-and-dallas-plans-its-high-speed-routes-in-10-billion-project/

 

Man they are really getting close with these routes. Both of the ones where they are focusing their study miss either Huntsville, Waco, and College Station. It seems they are trying to get the most direct route possible. While it would have been nice for it to go through college station, I think it's a given that commuter rail will go through there eventually. These routes look fine to me though! What does everyone else think?

[BigFootsSocks]

Anyone worried about "Japanese trains" are just stuck on an old 20th century ideology xenophobia. As we grow towards a more technological dominant race, boundary lines disappear. It's time to stop being so ignorantly nationalistic and focus on what's best for ALL of humanity.

[DNAguy]

Why trenched? I would think elevating the lines into downtown would be cheaper, faster to construct, and easier to operate. Could even build over existing tracks or another right of way.

 

No way that the home owners and businesses along that line would allow an elevated train that runs at 200 mph. Simply too much noise and it would be way too ugly.

[ADCS]

No way that the home owners and businesses along that line would allow an elevated train that runs at 200 mph. Simply too much noise and it would be way too ugly.

 

It wouldn't necessarily have to be, though. This is where TCR could partner with the First Ward/Rice Military superneighborhood - in exchange for TCR adding space to the infrastructure for landscaping, civic organizations could take charge of beautification and landscape maintenance. What was once railway brownfield could become a terraced park/tunnel combination.

 

There are plenty of options, as long as you are creative with cost distribution and control.

[Sparrow]

Rather interesting that TxDOT has decided to change their plans for 290's HOV lane configuration from 3 lanes down to one. Perhaps a TxDOT/METRO/TCR partnership quid pro quo is in the works?? TCR can use TxDOT's right-of-way for free if TCR uses it's trains to also operate a commuter rail line for Houston whether or not such a commuter line would be profitable. Probably wouldn't be a bad deal for any party involved, or the public either. The HSR folks would have to operate the line of course, not METRO, because of the whole Buy America clause for transit vehicles. Not likely, but an interesting possibility nonetheless.

[BigFootsSocks]

Hey that's an interesting thought...I fail to understand what sort of logic TXDOT used when reducing those lanes...maybe there's something they're not telling us? Who knows?

[BigFootsSocks]

One of the homeowners that showed up to the meeting said he "wouldn't like it but might have to file a lawsuit because his property is already next to a rail line and doesn't want a train running by every 30 minutes"

Do these people not understand the term "high-speed?" It would be next to ur property for hardly a few seconds, if that.

[mollusk]

One of the homeowners that showed up to the meeting said he "wouldn't like it but might have to file a lawsuit because his property is already next to a rail line and doesn't want a train running by every 30 minutes"

 

As Lt. Worf would say, "he will fail."

[Ross]

I doubt there would be trains running at 200mph inside town, given the wind effects, noise, and safety issues. From NW Mall to Downtown would likely be much slower. In fact, given the time it would take to get to a Downtown station, NW Mall makes perfect sense as a terminal location.

[BigFootsSocks]

Obviously not, but the person I was referring to was a rural farmer or land owner far outside the main cities.

[SkylineView]

Re: elevated rail & noise... I rode the JR trains all over Japan 6 weeks ago.  In the major cities, there are arterial stations away from the core (think Woodlands, or 610/290 vs. downtown).  The trains don't go 200 mph between them... since there isn't room to speed up and speed down.  The lower speeds also allow tighter turns in urban environments and create less noise.  The Japanese are fanatical about noise, and have specific standards for how much noise can reach a structure.  In urban areas, there are sound walls, trench & cover, and other barriers that encapsulate the line.  These trains don't create anything like the noise of a freight train.  No banging, no horns, no signal, no 2 mph squeeky wheel nonsense.  

 

See pg 7.   http://www.mlit.go.jp/english/2006/h_railway_bureau/Laws_concerning/14.pdf

 

 

 

[mkahanek]

Hello all,

 

I am late getting in to this discussion.  I am wondering if anyone here as a more detailed map of the proposed BNSF-1 route specifically in Grimes county around the Singleton, TX area.   All I can find are high level maps.  I need to drill down and see if property I own in that area will be affected.   Any links or assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Mark

[BigFootsSocks]

If you have property that backs up to the BNSF rail line then most likely it will be affected, however I would be surprised if the line didn't go down the Utility route