Texas Central Project

[DNAguy]

Map of the alignment finalest is up:

http://dallashoustonhsr.com/maps-and-pictures/

Edited October 18, 2014 by DNAguy

[DNAguy]

IMHO, I think the utility option has the greatest chance for success. In addition, the 290 portion can be piggy backed when the Houston to Austin & San Antonio line eventually gets built.... in 30 years or so .....if ever, of course.

[mollusk]

I agree that the utility alignment seems to be the better option.  Every crossing is going to have to be grade separated; intuitively it seems that they would be easier to build when you're not right up against an active freight main line.  Also, they'll have to get their 'lectricity from somewhere; being adjacent to those lines would also seem to have a lower construction cost.

[BigFootsSocks]

The start in Houston shows downtown so maybe that's still an option?

Like what's said before the utility line seems to be the best option. Would do wonders to have a futuristic HSR line going through 290 too

[MaxConcrete]

The public meeting had the usual display boards. I was not able to stay for the presentation. The display boards didn't reveal anything new but the analysis matrix below shows that the utility corridor easily ranks the best in the environmental and engineering categories, and ties for first with BNSF in the financial category. So the chances of selecting the utility corridor seem very good.

 

Here is some info that the representatives told me, which should be correct but should not be viewed as fact.

 

* There will be one station in Houston and one station in Dallas. For Houston on the utility corridor (US 290), station options are downtown, near Northwest Mall and at BW 8. On the BNSF corridor station options are downtown and BW8. This would seem to me to make downtown less likely for both options due to the added cost. For the utility corridor (US 290), I'm thinking downtown is especially unlikely due to the probable high cost of the inner loop section and desirable location near Northwest Mall.

 

* For either the BNSF or utility corridor, a new easement around around 80 to 100 feet wide will typically be acquired along the existing corridor (even if the tracks could be squeezed into the existing easement). The dedicated corridor with extra space will facilitate constructability and provide space for utility roads, maintenance access and emergency access. This seems like it will be easier along the high voltage corridor. But land acquisition could generate rural opposition.

 

* The train uses 9 Megawatts of power when running at full speed. It uses more during acceleration but this is offset by regenerative braking (ie pumping electricity back into the grid). For a 90 minute trip, energy consumption is about 14 Megawatt-hours. The wholesale price of electricity is around $40 to $50 per megawatt-hour, so the electricity cost for a one-way train trip is around $700 (assuming $50/MWH). For comparison, a gallon of jet fuel has about 39.5 kwH of energy, so 14 MWH is equivalent to around 354 gallons of jet fuel based on pure energy content. I can't seem to find a typical power delivery efficiency for a jet engine, but it is surely less than the combustion efficiency (which is apparently very high - around 98%)
At 25kV electrical supply, the train should draw around 360 amps (P=VI). But that is very rough - I'm assuming one phase and not adjusting for power phase and efficiency, and the train should be a highly inductive load (=higher phase angle). Maybe some electrical engineers can comment.

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2014 by MaxConcrete

[BigFootsSocks]

"Near northwest mall"

Oh I definitely called this. I've been saying that site is a perfect spot for a HSR station. I'd be okay with being wrong if it meant they went downtown though.

[Subdude]

Do they know where the Dallas station wold be located?

 

 

[SMF]

If they don't build in downtown Houston and downtown Dallas, this will fail shorty after the novelty wears off. If people have to drive to NW Mall to catch a train, they might as well drive to Bush or Hobby to catch a plane.

If you are going to do this, spend the extra billion and do it right.

Edited October 22, 2014 by SMF

[BigFootsSocks]

That doesn't actually make sense because if they are going to drive to the airport and wait 2 extra hours to go through security why wouldn't they pay the same/cheaper price for HSR?

Especially if it's downtown, people would have to drive even further. If the station is near Northwest mall you can bet high end "mixed use" is going to follow.

[SMF]

People from Houston and people coming from Dallas will still have to rent a car, still have to deal with parking and still have to wait in traffic to get to downtown Houston. Even in the best possible scenario, this whole project seems like a long shot to me. I think they would increase their chances for success by making certain that the station ties into both cities existing rail transit and making the entire experience as easy on the traveler as possible. It need to be significantly better and faster than air travel.

Edited October 22, 2014 by SMF

[august948]

People from Dallas will still have to rent a car, still have to deal with parking and still have to wait in traffic to get to downtown Houston.

 

Same as they do now with the airports.  Couldn't they just run shuttles to and from downtown (and maybe the EC and elsewhere) if demand is high enough?  Plus, if it's the business travel market that dominates the passenger list, I'm sure there will be taxis galore waiting to whisk you downtown.  Even during rush hour, how long does it take to get from 290/I10 to downtown by car?  15 to 20 mins?  Maybe 30 max?  And a taxi can drop you and your luggage right at a downtown hotel or the particular tower you are visiting.

 

[SMF]

 

Same as they do now with the airports.

 

 

That's what I'm saying. It needs to be better than what we already have at the airport. DT has (will have) the hotels, conventions and activities. Business travelers from Dallas won't like having to deal with the same issues they have to coming in at Houston airport. I can see how it would be great on the Dallas end to get to the station, but once they are in Houston HSR won't be much or any better what is already here.

[Houston19514]

Do they know where the Dallas station wold be located?

 

Nothing certain.

 

They identified three possible locations:  around the intersection of Interstates 20 and 45, near the intersection of I-45 and Loop 12, and near the southwest corner of downtown Dallas.

[Subdude]

Nothing certain.

 

They identified three possible locations:  around the intersection of Interstates 20 and 45, near the intersection of I-45 and Loop 12, and near the southwest corner of downtown Dallas.

 

Thanks, that makes sense.  For some reason I had the southwest corner of downtown in my mind as the terminus.

[BigFootsSocks]

  

That's what I'm saying. It needs to be better than what we already have at the airport. DT has (will have) the hotels, conventions and activities. Business travelers from Dallas won't like having to deal with the same issues they have to coming in at Houston airport. I can see how it would be great on the Dallas end to get to the station, but once they are in Houston HSR won't be much or any better what is already here.

I see your point. However, the GCRTA has said that with a HSR line commuter rail is almost certain to go along with it. Nothing is definite but I wouldn't be surprised to see a commuter line be announced along with this.

[Luminare]

Didn't know where to put this so I'm just going to put it here.

 

http://www.texastribune.org/2014/10/21/first-bullet-train-meeting-station-locations/

 

I'm glad they are making a huge point to have the train go from Downtown to Downtown! Seems the turnout was good also. I know some people on here have had problems with the line have multiple stations, but that's part of having a train. You can also have times when the train simply goes from Downtown to Downtown and then trains that make multiple stops. They do this all the time.

[Luminare]

I am going to add one more thing. Typically at the very beginning of a project like this it's more about the needs AND wants for everyone. Yeah you need have some sensible expectations of what can be achieved, but that severely limits the design process going forward. You always want the client or clients to get everything they want into the project that they can while there isn't really anything drawn yet. It sets the bar high and allows for more flexibility in the planning of the project. I think some people here are really limiting themselves to what this will look like 10 years down the road, but the fact is....we have no clue what this will be and we shouldn't try to predict that. It's better right now to imagine the many ways this high speed rail could be achieved as well as ways that extensions and improvements can be made later on. 'oh if it stops at the BW8 then it will fail' or blah blah blah. While trains are linear...the thinking and long term planning shouldn't be and won't. Maybe it does only go to BW8 or NW Mall at the beginning but that's because it might be the most sensible approach. That doesn't mean that it can't extend deeper into downtown. For the future of the rail itself, it MUST go to downtown. Right now though (especially since we aren't in the actual conversation about it) lets make the Number one goal of getting it from Downtown to Downtown and discuss that accordingly! Once you know the budget and limitations after the initial design THEN you start scaling back. Always start big though and then go small because its easier to shrink a project than it is to expand it.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Luminare

[Houston19514]

I see your point. However, the GCRTA has said that with a HSR line commuter rail is almost certain to go along with it. Nothing is definite but I wouldn't be surprised to see a commuter line be announced along with this.

 

Who/what is the GCRTA?

[cloud713]

Who/what is the GCRTA?

Gulf coast regional transit authority?

[BigFootsSocks]

Yes. Them among others have been in the press multiple times this year about that point.

Also, exactly what Luminare said:lol:

[Houston19514]

Yes. Them among others have been in the press multiple times this year about that point.

Also, exactly what Luminare said:lol:

 

Are you maybe meaning to refer to the Gulf Coast Rail District?   Pretty sure there's no such thing as Gulf Coast Regional Transit Authority.

[Sparrow]

BW-8, 610, or Downtown for the single station location. The problem with too far in is the folks in the edge cities might as well drive themselves instead of taking the train. Why drive an hour into town, say from The Woodlands, when your purpose is to get north of town? On the other hand with a station too far out, why take a train that'll leave you nearly an hours drive from your destination in rush hour traffic when you can fly directly to Hobby and be 20 minutes away?

 

Of course the prudent, practical solution is to build the middle option at 610. It's the Goldilocks rational. Frankly it does make a lot of sense, if other connections are supplied. Dropping off passengers within an easy transfer to both Uptown and Downtown would be ideal if METRO can get moving on their Uptown BRT (with a extension necessary to the new station) as well as a Washington or I-10 corridor BRT/LRT/commuter rail route.

 

On the other hand, the pie-in-the-sky solution is for them to find development partners who realize building all 3 stations would provide the greatest possible ridership and greatest possible real estate development return while providing a second stream of income via a commuter rail route.

[BigFootsSocks]

Relax man. That was completely uncalled for. I had no idea what he meant when he posted it, and was curious to know. I figured it out with the help of your earlier suggestion. (The only GCRTA I could find was Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority; I had to presume that was not what he was intending to reference)

Yeah cloud it's cool, I know he didn't mean to come across as a dick...

Yes that's what I meant I thought it was Gulf Coast Regional Rail Authority. Close enough.

Ok as for what Sparrow said, the whole argument for people on the edge of the city can be tackled by two points I've said multiple times already;

1) the whole point of this is so they DONT have to drive 8 hours round trip. You'll need to fill up on gas at least twice which will be comparable to a ticket on this. No one is saying 45 is going to be completely barren, this gives another option for the hundreds of thousands that commute back and forth each week

2) The Gulf Coast Rail District has stated as well as many other people working with Texas Central, that commuter rail is almost certain to go along with this.

As for the rest of your post, pretty much spot on!

Edited October 22, 2014 by BigFootsSocks

[MaxConcrete]

Here are the poster boards with station locations. The URS representative answering questions said there will be one station in Dallas and one station in Houston, so the station location will determine the rail line terminus.

 

I can't see the south Dallas stations as being feasible. South Dallas is of course a low-income area and the customers are in the north, and I don't see people wanting to go into south Dallas.

 

For Houston, the situation is different. The Northwest Mall location is actually more convenient to most of the affluent potential customer base. The Beltway 8 locations are still potentially viable to much of the customer base.

 

 

[IronTiger]

The BNSF route seems like it wouldn't be the best choice to take: doesn't that go through lots of residential neighborhoods, and isn't at least part of the route a quiet zone?

[mollusk]

Agreed that the only Dallas station location that makes sense among these three is downtown.  

 

Personally, I'd also prefer a downtown Houston location, but Northwest Mall makes sense, too - particularly if there's a quick METRO rail hookup to downtown and the Galleria.  Northwest Mall would also be a boost to the already superior utility route. 

[BigFootsSocks]

I don't know the DART well but are all of the Dallas stations on any of their lines?

[august948]

Do the HSR trains have to be turned at their destinations or are they double-ended like the light rail trains?  Reason I ask is it takes some room to turn a train and that would affect a potential terminus.

[BigFootsSocks]

Aren't the HS Trains in Jaoan double ended? Good question. If it's going downtown I would assume so.

[Houston19514]

Here are the poster boards with station locations. The URS representative answering questions said there will be one station in Dallas and one station in Houston, so the station location will determine the rail line terminus.

 

I can't see the south Dallas stations as being feasible. South Dallas is of course a low-income area and the customers are in the north, and I don't see people wanting to go into south Dallas.

 

For Houston, the situation is different. The Northwest Mall location is actually more convenient to most of the affluent potential customer base. The Beltway 8 locations are still potentially viable to much of the customer base.

 

 

 

 

Good points.  But the analysis is only half-done.  The station locations need to be optimized for both departing and arriving passengers.  For arriving passengers, the downtown location for Houston surely must be the hands-down winner.  The only even remotely possible alternative would be the Northwest Transit Center/Northwest Mall location.