Texas Central Project

[IronTiger]

Amtrak failed the Dallas-Corsicana-College Station-Houston route because a few factors that aren't accounted for:

 

- There were slow spots, including a sharp curve at Hempstead and some extremely slow going in Dallas for reasons not entirely clear

- College Station wasn't nearly the force it is now back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

- Corsicana definitely isn't a commuter stop for Dallas, despite some pretty good industrial base for a town that size (Kohl's and Home Depot distrib. centers, for starters)

- Waco's growth has been deliberately stymied for decades. College Station, Houston, Dallas...they have futures. Waco's not exactly a growth market, and if Waco was a stock, you'd never want to buy it if you wanted to cash out later. College Station and Houston are things you want to invest in.

- Amtrak never stopped in Waco because that's not how the rails ran, not because of any decisions. Amtrak does stop in McGregor, which is west of Waco. Even that isn't too far away, as Waco's city limits directly touch McGregor's airport.

[BigFootsSocks]

Amtrak failed the Dallas-Corsicana-College Station-Houston route because a few factors that aren't accounted for:

- There were slow spots, including a sharp curve at Hempstead and some extremely slow going in Dallas for reasons not entirely clear

- College Station wasn't nearly the force it is now back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

- Corsicana definitely isn't a commuter stop for Dallas, despite some pretty good industrial base for a town that size (Kohl's and Home Depot distrib. centers, for starters)

- Waco's growth has been deliberately stymied for decades. College Station, Houston, Dallas...they have futures. Waco's not exactly a growth market, and if Waco was a stock, you'd never want to buy it if you wanted to cash out later. College Station and Houston are things you want to invest in.

- Amtrak never stopped in Waco because that's not how the rails ran, not because of any decisions. Amtrak does stop in McGregor, which is west of Waco. Even that isn't too far away, as Waco's city limits directly touch McGregor's airport.

This isn't going to have any slow spots because it's going to take the best route that puts it at speeds of 200mph and while College Station is emerging there's absolutely no chance it would get a station before Austin or San Antonio would. Dallas to Houston is a priority and there's no guarantee this will even be a viable and stable option. This is a huge risk and there's no way they would waste the money to go to some middle of nowhere college town before they prove it's viability.

[arche_757]

I don't see the Houston - Dallas line as a huge risk... perhaps a bit premature?  Though, when this thing is built and operational I do think it will be the mid-2020s so with another few million living in both cities, who knows the state of the airline industry, and the cost of fuel for drivers - I think they'll hit this right out'a the park.

 

I share Iron Tigers sentiments about wanting lines to College Station, Waco, Lubbock etc. (all the small towns + the big cities) but I do think that is anotehr day, much further down the road.  It would seem that this current proposal has traction because of the Houston - Dallas draw.  The number 4 and 5 largest metro areas.  Rapidly growing, massive economies, big business ties between the two... seems only logical to place importance on this route.  Given the ideal length where it will take less time to travel by rail than drive, or fly, and this is a shoe-in for a massive success.  Its just going to cost billions to build, where it may have only cost a billion in the past, but then Southwest wouldn't be the nationally relevant airline it is perhaps if the original proposal had been completed?

Edited June 26, 2014 by arche_757

[fkp5]

I think it is a good idea to send the route through College Station, so they still have the option for future growth. They can still go through College Station without making a stop there when the line initially opens. When they deem that there is a large enough market in College Station, then they can build a station and start making stops there. Maybe a few of the Houston to Dallas trips can make stops in College Station, while the majority go without any stops. I just think it is a good idea to leave all options open.

[BigFootsSocks]

I don't see the Houston - Dallas line as a huge risk... perhaps a bit premature?  Though, when this thing is built and operational I do think it will be the mid-2020s so with another few million living in both cities, who knows the state of the airline industry, and the cost of fuel for drivers - I think they'll hit this right out'a the park.

 

I share Iron Tigers sentiments about wanting lines to College Station, Waco, Lubbock etc. (all the small towns + the big cities) but I do think that is anotehr day, much further down the road.  It would seem that this current proposal has traction because of the Houston - Dallas draw.  The number 4 and 5 largest metro areas.  Rapidly growing, massive economies, big business ties between the two... seems only logical to place importance on this route.  Given the ideal length where it will take less time to travel by rail than drive, or fly, and this is a shoe-in for a massive success.  Its just going to cost billions to build, where it may have only cost a billion in the past, but then Southwest wouldn't be the nationally relevant airline it is perhaps if the original proposal had been completed?

Nah I dont' see it as premature, rather late IMO. Or if we consider the previous attempt premature then this one is prime. 

I don't disagree with you, I just think that as a way to show that HSR works, they don't need to waste their money on cities that will add little value and passenger numbers. Also a billion back then has inflated to close to the 10 billion current price tag.

[IronTiger]

This isn't going to have any slow spots because it's going to take the best route that puts it at speeds of 200mph and while College Station is emerging there's absolutely no chance it would get a station before Austin or San Antonio would. Dallas to Houston is a priority and there's no guarantee this will even be a viable and stable option. This is a huge risk and there's no way they would waste the money to go to some middle of nowhere college town before they prove it's viability.

Yes, I know why there's no slow spots, that's the reason why Amtrak failed but HSR won't. Frankly, I can't imagine that you would consider Dallas-Houston a "priority" while considering no other stops. Secondly, "some middle of nowhere of college town" clearly shows that you have no idea of the major changes afoot (or even been there in the last five-ten years, if ever). But that's okay, I know you didn't mean it to be rude. It's definitely growing and in many ways under-served. 

 

Interstate 45 bypassed B-CS years ago. We now have an opportunity to do something different.

Edited June 27, 2014 by IronTiger

[BigFootsSocks]

Yes, I know why there's no slow spots, that's the reason why Amtrak failed but HSR won't. Frankly, I can't imagine that you would consider Dallas-Houston a "priority" while considering no other stops. Secondly, "some middle of nowhere of college town" clearly shows that you have no idea of the major changes afoot (or even been there in the last five-ten years, if ever). But that's okay, I know you didn't mean it to be rude. It's definitely growing and in many ways under-served. 

 

Interstate 45 bypassed B-CS years ago. We now have an opportunity to do something different.

I consider it a priority because it's the first of it's kind in America and seeing as how California has royally screwed themselves this project could set the stage for future HSR across the nation. This project is a lot more important than we think and while stops in the major Texas University towns would be ideal in a perfect world, they need to prove that it actually works. If Houston to Dallas works as well as we hope then hell yeah we're gonna get further expansion.

Okay maybe that was a bit extreme. It's been a few years since I've been through College Station and just today I overheard my company is opening a new office in there, but for right now it's in that developing stage. Sure it's gonna be just as big as the other cities but for now the only thing there is A&M. Without that college station wouldn't be the town it is today. Of course planning stops in that general area if the route goes through there would be an insanely smart idea, but with as much as Texas Central has to prove with this initial phase, I doubt it's on their mind right now. I seriously doubt there would be more than 2 stops on this entire initial phase.

As for the 45 bypass, that's finally getting redeemed through the 249 project...if you don't mind paying for it

[Tower26]

What I learned about Amtrak is that it will not traverse lines that are single tracked mainline corridors . It will only traverse  corridors that are double or multi-tracked . This is also partly the reason it may bypass some townships that sit near or on single tracked corridors to avoid being late due to freight manifest (Priority Hot) being given the right of way because both traffic have to share that one line or MOW crews working on the line . This is why multi-tracking is important . Waco and College station would benefit from HSR because of Bryan's UP(SP) connection to Houston and DFW . Waco's UP(MP) Amtrak Texas Eagle) connection between DFW and Austin /San Antonio via McGregor to the west . Second , they both sit near a freeway .Waco sits on major interstate I-35 . Third , Texas A&M/Prairie View A&M and Baylor is creating commerce for Bryan and Waco. They would make good HSR stops . Houston to DFW , I live on the very line that used to host a Zephyr service at one time . It is a state marker FWDC/CRIP ( Ft Worth & Denver City /Chicago Rock Island & Pacific(The Rock(BN) it was once apart of the Cotton Belt (SP) later Burlington Route/I&GN(BN) ,etc . A little history about the line . Today , It is the BNSF Gulf Division from Tower55 in Ft. Worth to Brisbane/Bayport Division (Hobby Airport) here in the city . The line is current single tracked that begins from Hardy Tollroad to the west then northwest to Ft.Worth. A good possible corridor for the Houston/DFW HSR would be from the following stops in succession Hobby , Bush , Deerbrook , Woodlands ,College Station/PrairieView, Baylor , Dallas Love Field/TRE East/West connection to Ft. Worth Intermodal Center or Dallas Union Station .An option TRE would probably establish a intermodal center at Love Field or in Grand Prairie or East Ft Worth. I believe in some areas this line would be elevated .

 

[IronTiger]

When Amtrak did operate locally, they did use single track corridors for going to CS. I noticed in Hempstead there's an abandoned siding (formerly a line that went to Elgin) that appears to have no "real" purpose. I also think I remember reading that Amtrak would sometimes sit on a siding to give right of way to a freight train.

[arche_757]

Indeed inflation happens... but the cost of construction has gone up too.  Not just because of inflation, but because economies such as India, Brazil and China that were at one time backwaters are now spending big money on construction materials.  The reduced supply of metal and concrete has caused construction costs to jump.

 

I think a route through College Station might make sense - it is the largest metro area in Texas not on an interstate (if I'm not mistaken).  So connectivity to Houston and Dallas would be a goodgreat thing for them.  However, how many extra dollars would that add onto the entire project?  Additionally perhaps it would make more sense to connect College Station to an east/west running line at some point?  Or, like someone else mentioned - just run a regional rail link.

Edited June 27, 2014 by arche_757

[Slick Vik]

Amtrak still waits for freight trains, all the time

[Luminare]

when you add the fact that college station is becoming a research, medical, and bio corridor mecca it would be foolish not to connect to that especially since it isn't on a major interstate freeway. Many past rail proposals usually had Bryan/College Station as a middle station in a proposed rail line. Many high speed rails do at least have a couple of stops along the way. Not a dozon or so that you normally seen on commuter rail, but at least ones that stop at larger towns. The Brazos valley is one of the fastest growing areas in the state and will continue to be a emerging market in the future. The more populations you get too the more people will use it. Plain and simple.

[BigFootsSocks]

when you add the fact that college station is becoming a research, medical, and bio corridor mecca it would be foolish not to connect to that especially since it isn't on a major interstate freeway. Many past rail proposals usually had Bryan/College Station as a middle station in a proposed rail line. Many high speed rails do at least have a couple of stops along the way. Not a dozon or so that you normally seen on commuter rail, but at least ones that stop at larger towns. The Brazos valley is one of the fastest growing areas in the state and will continue to be a emerging market in the future. The more populations you get too the more people will use it. Plain and simple.

No one is saying any different, the issue is whether or not Texas Central will build a stop in the initial phase, which is very nearly 100% unlikely. Like at least 98%. It's not gonna happen before San Antonio or Austin.

[kbates2]

I think connecting to CS is far from a top priority.  

[BigFootsSocks]

The priority is Houston to Dallas and if they're lucky Fort Worth. This is why we have news reports of these three mayors coming together to voice their support. Not the College Station or Waco which why are we even still talking about Waco? There's no way in hell it gets a station before even El Paso

[arche_757]

^^ Both are right.  College Station, while a quickly growing metropolitan area (both in population and importance) is I'm sure pretty far off this groups radar.

Remember - they studied 95 routes across the country before settling on Houston - Dallas as their best bet for a launch route for the system.  College Station would still be best served by a slower - cheaper - regional rail connecting to Houston via Cypress.

[Houston19514]

^^^ Exactly rigtht:

 

Just to put some numbers to it:

 

Both the Houston and DFW metro areas added more people between 2010 and 2012 than reside in the entire Bryan/College Station metropolitan area.  (Houston added 245,000l;   DFW added 241,000;   Bryan/College Station had a total 2012 population of 236,000.)

Each of the Houston and DFW metro areas have more than 25 times the population of the Bryan/College Station metro area, and both Houston and DFW are growing faster than Bryan/College Station.

[mollusk]

Each time you add another stop, you chip into the "high speed" aspect of the trip.  I also question the viability of Waco or College Station as stops in terms of the number of passengers they would handle.  While they both have fine educational institutions, they don't support anything beyond puddle jumper air service, and even that doesn't have near the frequency of just Southwest's HOU - DAL service (not counting other airlines or service in and out of IAH or DFW). 

[IronTiger]

I was playing around with a measurement tool between Dallas and Houston and found that College Station's stop (not Waco) wouldn't actually add a lot of mileage (10-20 miles). I think an HSR should have at least 3 stops...and CS is better than Huntsville.

 

Of course Dallas and Houston are bigger cities with more people and more people coming, but I think that's a poor excuse to keep HSR out.

Edited June 28, 2014 by IronTiger

[BigFootsSocks]

I was playing around with a measurement tool between Dallas and Houston and found that College Station's stop (not Waco) wouldn't actually add a lot of mileage (10-20 miles). I think an HSR should have at least 3 stops...and CS is better than Huntsville.

 

Of course Dallas and Houston are bigger cities with more people and more people coming, but I think that's a poor excuse to keep HSR out.

I agree, leaving College Station out would be a bad idea, but leaving it out for a future station seems more likely. If there is going to be a third stop then why would it be CS? If they're gonna go the 290 route they might as well go up to Austin then Dallas.

They're big selling point is Dallas to Houston in 90 minutes. They won't make that with a third stop regardless if it's in CS or Waco or wherever.

[IronTiger]

Here's the thing: if it connects to CS, it doesn't actually have to stop there. They don't even have to build a station immediately, but it would save a lot of money and time if they wanted to do it down the road. The thing about trains is that they have different times--trains may stop at CS, express routes would bypass it. 

[mollusk]

 The thing about trains is that they have different times--trains may stop at CS, express routes would bypass it. 

 

The train that makes stops bypassed by the express would be the local.

 

A stop, no matter how perfectly aligned with the main route, will still add time to the schedule, if for no other reason than slowing down and sitting still long enough to allow people to get on and off, and then getting back up to speed.  If it causes a diversion from a straight line, more so.

 

This is not a zero sum game.  However, having an allegedly high speed train go dozens of miles out of the way to make intermediate stops with few incremental passengers is kinda self defeating.

 

True story:  Back when airplane reservations were always made over the phone, I was booking a trip to and from Dallas.  Almost all of the returns were nonstop (of course), save one that was a direct flight with one stop.  I asked the Southwest agent, "Where on earth does it stop?? Centerville?" She laughingly agreed that sounded pretty silly and looked up the route - it went through Austin, which added roughly a half hour to what was ordinarily a 50 minute flight.

[IronTiger]

The train that makes stops bypassed by the express would be the local.

 

A stop, no matter how perfectly aligned with the main route, will still add time to the schedule, if for no other reason than slowing down and sitting still long enough to allow people to get on and off, and then getting back up to speed.  If it causes a diversion from a straight line, more so.

 

This is not a zero sum game.  However, having an allegedly high speed train go dozens of miles out of the way to make intermediate stops with few incremental passengers is kinda self defeating.

 

True story:  Back when airplane reservations were always made over the phone, I was booking a trip to and from Dallas.  Almost all of the returns were nonstop (of course), save one that was a direct flight with one stop.  I asked the Southwest agent, "Where on earth does it stop?? Centerville?" She laughingly agreed that sounded pretty silly and looked up the route - it went through Austin, which added roughly a half hour to what was ordinarily a 50 minute flight.

Austin IS dozens of miles out of the way, College Station isn't. So I made a few paths in Google Earth: a Houston-CS-Dallas running largely over existing rail corridors is 258 miles.

 

If you go north toward The Woodlands, you can't do that with existing rail corridors because you'll end up Palestine, 146 miles out and way off from the freeway. If you took the railroad that goes northwest roughly along the 249/Tomball area to Dallas, that's 226 miles...assuming no city bypasses. And since that rail runs so close to the B-CS area anyway (closer than I-45) I can add just less than 25 miles to that to make a full three-stop train. 

 

Now, I suppose a spur could go west toward Austin and College Station, but at the mere distances we're talking about (maybe 20-30, not 50-100), the same people who complain about College Station being a stop on a Houston-Dallas route would be complaining about it on an Austin-College Station route. And Interstate 45 will always be there.

 

EDIT: Even if you draw a line on the map with your finger from Houston to Dallas, that is no way a straight line even close to reality. A true "triangle" would put Interstate 45 closer to 249 (near Beltway 8) and blast straight through the western part of The Woodlands.

Edited June 28, 2014 by IronTiger

[LarryDierker]

NM

Edited June 28, 2014 by LarryDierker

[cloud713]

I wonder which route they have chosen. The most sensible path would be up 290, 6, and 35. So the probably stops would be Houston, College Station/Bryan, Waco, and Dallas.

NO. the best paths would be either the rail line along along Hardy/45 or the one along 249.

 

They're not going to have a route fully selected until after they get through the environmental impact evaluation process, which according to the fishwrapper is just now getting started.  However, everything I've read at least implies a fairly straight line, non stop run between Houston and Dallas - doing otherwise would nick into the 90 minute trip time goal that keeps getting bandied about.  Since they've also mentioned the idea of running their fully grade separated line adjacent to existing rights of way (rail, electric, and road), I'm guessing the BNSF route may be in play - it's a more direct route to Dallas than the UP has.

 

I can't help but wonder what they're going to do for a terminal here.  In Dallas, it's easy - Union Station is still in use.  However, we've got the downtown post office sitting where the SP station was, Union Station's railyard has a baseball field on it now, and the Katy station is long gone.  I can't imagine how the Amtrak station as it currently sits would be considered even remotely useable.  My speculation is they'd build something adjacent to the Burnett Red Line station - there's plenty of former rail yard there, and it's a short, uninterrupted run to either the BNSF right of way or the Hardy Toll Road extension.

 

good points.. 

and yeah, i too wonder what they will do for a Houston station. i wish they would buy the Hardy Yards site and turn it into a HSR station/mixed use destination. i suppose the Post Office site wouldnt be too bad though.

 

A good possible corridor for the Houston/DFW HSR would be from the following stops in succession Hobby , Bush , Deerbrook , Woodlands ,College Station/PrairieView, Baylor , Dallas Love Field/TRE East/West connection to Ft. Worth Intermodal Center or Dallas Union Station .An option TRE would probably establish a intermodal center at Love Field or in Grand Prairie or East Ft Worth. I believe in some areas this line would be elevated .

you do realize were talking about HIGH SPEED RAIL, here, right? not commuter rail? with that many stops it would take forever to get from Houston to Dallas. 

 

^^^ Exactly rigtht:

 

Just to put some numbers to it:

 

Both the Houston and DFW metro areas added more people between 2010 and 2012 than reside in the entire Bryan/College Station metropolitan area.  (Houston added 245,000l;   DFW added 241,000;   Bryan/College Station had a total 2012 population of 236,000.)

Each of the Houston and DFW metro areas have more than 25 times the population of the Bryan/College Station metro area, and both Houston and DFW are growing faster than Bryan/College Station.

THIS. a college station stop is absurd, a waste of time, and a waste of money.

 

They're big selling point is Dallas to Houston in 90 minutes. They won't make that with a third stop regardless if it's in CS or Waco or wherever.

 

I was playing around with a measurement tool between Dallas and Houston and found that College Station's stop (not Waco) wouldn't actually add a lot of mileage (10-20 miles). I think an HSR should have at least 3 stops...and CS is better than Huntsville.

 

Of course Dallas and Houston are bigger cities with more people and more people coming, but I think that's a poor excuse to keep HSR out.

We get it.. you go to A&M/live in CS, so you want HSR coming to CS (not trying to sound like a prick). that doesnt mean it should happen. i went to Baylor, i thought it would of been neat to get the high speed line coming through Waco, but im reasonable/realistic and know that that wouldnt be economically viable.

[IronTiger]

We get it.. you go to A&M/live in CS, so you want HSR coming to CS (not trying to sound like a prick). that doesnt mean it should happen. i went to Baylor, i thought it would of been neat to get the high speed line coming through Waco, but im reasonable/realistic and know that that wouldnt be economically viable.

No, it's really not. Sure, College Station has gotten a reputation for "small, unimpressive college town" and it's certainly not as big as Houston or Dallas, where every local victory seems like a toddler learning to tie his shoes ("Hey, we're getting a Saltgrass Steakhouse!" "") but it is going somewhere and will be an important link in the future (after all, take a look at any given Houston suburb in the last 10 years, they're all different). It's also very difficult to judge a city if you've only been to it 10-15 years ago (if ever), so that's understandable, AND if you yourself live in one of the largest cities in the nation.

[BigFootsSocks]

No, it's really not. Sure, College Station has gotten a reputation for "small, unimpressive college town" and it's certainly not as big as Houston or Dallas, where every local victory seems like a toddler learning to tie his shoes ("Hey, we're getting a Saltgrass Steakhouse!" "") but it is going somewhere and will be an important link in the future (after all, take a look at any given Houston suburb in the last 10 years, they're all different). It's also very difficult to judge a city if you've only been to it 10-15 years ago (if ever), so that's understandable, AND if you yourself live in one of the largest cities in the nation.

Preparing for the future is obviously something that makes a lot of sense and if the route even goes that way I wouldn't surprised if there are plans for a future station, but then again planning for the future isn't really how things are built around here sadly. That is, unless it's a toll road

No, it's really not. Sure, College Station has gotten a reputation for "small, unimpressive college town" and it's certainly not as big as Houston or Dallas, where every local victory seems like a toddler learning to tie his shoes ("Hey, we're getting a Saltgrass Steakhouse!" "") but it is going somewhere and will be an important link in the future (after all, take a look at any given Houston suburb in the last 10 years, they're all different). It's also very difficult to judge a city if you've only been to it 10-15 years ago (if ever), so that's understandable, AND if you yourself live in one of the largest cities in the nation.

Preparing for the future is obviously something that makes a lot of sense and if the route even goes that way I wouldn't surprised if there are plans for a future station, but then again planning for the future isn't really how things are built around here sadly. That is, unless it's a toll road

[IronTiger]

It's a HSR, not METRO (or even TxDOT).

 

I'm not saying that we should build it now before roads become catastrophic, or build it in hopes that high density will sprout like mushrooms after a good rain, it's looking toward the future.

[Tower26]

Cloud , I understand this is HIGH SPEED RAIL . What I was saying was a given scenario that it is possible that they could  place stops which would be lkely in high end areas for something of that type of travel or decide to express from city to city where an airport or a new class terminal would be likely to accomodate that type of travel if they decide to . It is great possibility .

[kbates2]

Obviously we aren't paying for this rail so we can make whatever ideas up that we want regardless if the lack economic viability. The company paying for it would never add a College Station stop because it makes no sense from a business stand point.