A Town Square For Houston

[HoustonIsHome]

On 12/4/2013 at 1:31 PM, The Pragmatist said:

For whatever reason, I like it without a building there. If this were a park, it would be pretty cool.

Its the town square effect.

Downtown already has about ten park but no squares (even though three of them are called squares). What would be nice would be a two to four block hard scape square surrounded by a shopping plaza with points of interests in various areas.

Discovery Green is close but not enough hard scape to fit my ridiculously narrow definition

Downtown also has:

2. Sam Houston park,

3. Buffalo Bayou Park,

4. Allen's Landing,

5. Tranquility Park,

6. Sesquicentennial Park,

7. Eleanor Tinsley Park,

8. Quebedeaux Park

Plus the fake squares:

9. Market Square

10. Hermann Square

11. Root Square

The few plazas we do have would fit in my definition (Jones Plaza is awesome) but tiny and has little connectivity to the area around it so I don't consider it a square.

I say build us a square. The statute of Sam Houston on the horse at Hermann Park would be a nice feature for a square centerpiece downtown.

[arche_757]

Plus the fake squares:

9. Market Square

10. Hermann Square

11. Root Square

 

Market Square is not "fake"

 

It was actually a working market at one time, then the city hall (with market stalls downstairs) and then once again a market place when the new city hall opened.  What's "fake" about it?

 

 

***And***  I don't want to see the Sam Houston statue in Hermann Park moved.  Why not commission a new statue for the new square you want to see?

[BayouCityMan]

I too would like to see a good size statue downtown or a signature fountain, something that becomes one of those iconic centerpiece photo op places with the skyscrapers in the background. Chicago's Buckingham Fountain or Bean in Milennium Park are good examples. It can be wholly unique and even uniquely Houston in nature.

[H-Town Man]

If this were a square, it would be a square that is 50% surrounded by parking garages. A better candidate for a square might be Skanska's block with the Houston Club building. You have the Esperson building on one side, Gulf on another, Chase Tower (Texas' tallest) on another, and to round it off, Pennzoil Place. Also catty-cornered from Jones Hall.

 

[HoustonIsHome]

Htown man I agree, the macys site would make a rather unscenic square. That's why I think a square would be nicer in the southeast part of downtown where there is more room for growth and ability to build with interaction with the square in mind.

They should just go ahead and close of the area around the former Macys to cars and continue to develop Main Street square into a proper square.

Market Square is not "fake"

It was actually a working market at one time, then the city hall (with market stalls downstairs) and then once again a market place when the new city hall opened. What's "fake" about it?

***And*** I don't want to see the Sam Houston statue in Hermann Park moved. Why not commission a new statue for the new square you want to see?

Didn't say it was fake, I called it a fake square, and that is by my definition only.

I don't know how it looked back in Houston early days, but to me it is just a park now.

As for the Sam Houston statue, I don't want it moved either, it is iconic where it is. All I said was that it would be an ideal centerpiece for a square.

[cloud713]

I too would like to see a good size statue downtown or a signature fountain, something that becomes one of those iconic centerpiece photo op places with the skyscrapers in the background. Chicago's Buckingham Fountain or Bean in Milennium Park are good examples. It can be wholly unique and even uniquely Houston in nature.

there were plans a few years back to build a signature fountain on Dallas St to book end the proposed retail corridor. somewhere close to Hilton Americas. it was to go right smack in the middle of a roundabout-ish looking intersection. its in some plans still listed on the downtown Houston website, but the plans were published in 2011.

[arche_757]

Htown...

...square.

Oh ok.  I understand.

 

Look up Market Square Houston - it is an old Market Square.

 

Also, just curious (not to veer this discussion) what is your definition of "square" in the sense of public plaza/park/open space?

[HoustonIsHome]

Also, just curious (not to veer this discussion) what is your definition of "square" in the sense of public plaza/park/open space?

Personal definition:

1. Open space of which a large proportion is hard scape (Jones Plaza for example), but greenscapes are not ruled out.

2. Variety of points of interest such as statues, fountains, busts, water features, even concert stages and stands.

3. Strong/easy pedestrian access. Great squares have closed off lanes of traffic, or traffic in just one direction ( I think those in Savannah you can only made right turns around them.

4. Strong interaction with the surrounding buildings. A nice old library or museum with massive steps falling out into the square where people sit to read or have a snack; store fronts, cafes with sidewalks tables... stuff like that instead on blank walls like around discovery green or Jones Plaza.

Discovery green has the elements of a great park but doesn't have the square feeling.

Market Square has way too much traffic and no real big draw like Disco Green.

Main Street square has big draws, some building attraction, but is still too traffic heavy and too narrow to feel like you are in a square. It still feels like side walk.

This to me is a square not a park:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Trafalgar_Square%2C_London_2_-_Jun_2009.jpg

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/m/projects/trafalgar-square-redevelopment/images.php?id=1046

[Texasota]

Market Square has way too much traffic and no real big draw like Disco Green.

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.

[Montrose1100]

I couldn't disagree more.

Market Square is the perfect place to stop and pick up some grub before going out Downtown.

[HoustonIsHome]

I think I opened Pandora's box on this one

Maybe we could get a mod to move this to a new thread so we could discuss this further.

Getting back on topic I think rebuilding will be best for this site. Sorry for the detour

[H-Town Man]

Personal definition:

1. Open space of which a large proportion is hard scape (Jones Plaza for example), but greenscapes are not ruled out.

2. Variety of points of interest such as statues, fountains, busts, water features, even concert stages and stands.

3. Strong/easy pedestrian access. Great squares have closed off lanes of traffic, or traffic in just one direction ( I think those in Savannah you can only made right turns around them.

4. Strong interaction with the surrounding buildings. A nice old library or museum with massive steps falling out into the square where people sit to read or have a snack; store fronts, cafes with sidewalks tables... stuff like that instead on blank walls like around discovery green or Jones Plaza.

Discovery green has the elements of a great park but doesn't have the square feeling.

Market Square has way too much traffic and no real big draw like Disco Green.

Main Street square has big draws, some building attraction, but is still too traffic heavy and too narrow to feel like you are in a square. It still feels like side walk.

This to me is a square not a park:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Trafalgar_Square%2C_London_2_-_Jun_2009.jpg

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/m/projects/trafalgar-square-redevelopment/images.php?id=1046

 

Good analysis. I think Market Square can be considered a square, but I agree that it's not like some traditional squares such as Trafalgar that are great for people to assemble.

 

I think an even better square than Trafalgar is Leicester Square a few blocks away. That and the main square of Krakow are probably my favorite in the world.

[Subdude]

I think I opened Pandora's box on this one

Maybe we could get a mod to move this to a new thread so we could discuss this further.

Getting back on topic I think rebuilding will be best for this site. Sorry for the detour

 

Done.  Great topic btw.

[Subdude]

Personal definition:

1. Open space of which a large proportion is hard scape (Jones Plaza for example), but greenscapes are not ruled out.

2. Variety of points of interest such as statues, fountains, busts, water features, even concert stages and stands.

3. Strong/easy pedestrian access. Great squares have closed off lanes of traffic, or traffic in just one direction ( I think those in Savannah you can only made right turns around them.

4. Strong interaction with the surrounding buildings. A nice old library or museum with massive steps falling out into the square where people sit to read or have a snack; store fronts, cafes with sidewalks tables... stuff like that instead on blank walls like around discovery green or Jones Plaza.

Discovery green has the elements of a great park but doesn't have the square feeling.

Market Square has way too much traffic and no real big draw like Disco Green.

Main Street square has big draws, some building attraction, but is still too traffic heavy and too narrow to feel like you are in a square. It still feels like side walk.

This to me is a square not a park:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Trafalgar_Square%2C_London_2_-_Jun_2009.jpg

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/m/projects/trafalgar-square-redevelopment/images.php?id=1046

 

 

I think you're thinking  in terms of a square that would function somewhat like a traditional zocalo, sort of a symbolic center of city life.  Examples might range from Tienanmen Square to the central plaza in Mexico City or Trafalgar Square.  It would be the place to hold demonstrations or just hang out.  

 

I think you've got the physical aspect down.  It seems to help if the plaza is central, has important buildings about and somewhat of an enclosed feeling (as Discovery Green does not).  Market Square probably came close in Houston back when it also held City Hall and a market.  

 

Even though Houston could probably create a central square physically, the real question is if it could be supported in such a role by the public.  My guess is no.  American cities for the most part don't have a culture of central gathering places.  Even if one were to be built people might not know what to do with it. 

 

Interesting concept though.  

[infinite_jim]

First you need a prominent axis then you get the node.

[kylejack]

I like green space better than hard space, so I'm going to have to disagree with you that Houston needs a square as you define it. Parks are great, and Market Square is a great area with lots of activity.

 

"Too much traffic" reads like a Yogi Berra line: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

[arche_757]

I think the closest things we have to "European style squares" here in Houston would be the plaza's around Reliant Stadium?  And it seems to serve the same purpose.

[HoustonIsHome]

I couldn't disagree more.

Well I guess how I said that was stupid.

There is a lot in and around Market Square but I don't think there is any major wow factor that would be a must see.

The clock is interesting but its not really in the square.

When I said it lacked anything major I meant a nice statue or an interesting fountain....

[HoustonIsHome]

Good analysis. I think Market Square can be considered a square, but I agree that it's not like some traditional squares such as Trafalgar that are great for people to assemble.

I think an even better square than Trafalgar is Leicester Square a few blocks away. That and the main square of Krakow are probably my favorite in the world.

London has a few good squares that are really close to each other. The outdoor urban spots in most European cities are so inviting. It makes you want to explore the city. I love Houston, but I have to admit it is a pass through city. You don't have to get out of your car...see it at 60 mph...its huge so you have to hurry...sad, but thats us.

I didn't really get to spend time in Poland. Will have to visit Krakow next time.

[bachanon]

if houston were to adopt a plan for a large scale "square", it would need to adopt a very specific type of location.  (with the expectation that future density will continue to increase between our major centers of activity) montrose at westheimer for instance, or main at elgin.  or, a location somewhat equal in distance between downtown, med center and uptown.

[HoustonIsHome]

I have a question, I have heard many mention that market square served as a more traditional square back in the day, but all the pics I have seen show City Hall occupying the space where market square is now.

I think City Hall was located there until the 1930s. Then the city hall building was turned into a bus depot. Then in the 60s it became a parking lot.

Do my question is was this ever a square? To me it just looked like a building with a farmers market round the side

Even though Houston could probably create a central square physically, the real question is if it could be supported in such a role by the public. My guess is no. American cities for the most part don't have a culture of central gathering places. Even if one were to be built people might not know what to do with it.

Interesting concept though.

Thanks so much for moving this.

Ok, I'm going to disagree with you now.

There are many examples in the past where squares worked well in US cities. Union Square in San Fran created an awesome shopping experience. Then there is Union Square in New York along with Madison Square and others. Philly, Baltimore, St Louis and even New Orleans have sucessful squares.

Now there is a recent push to recreate town gathering places in cities as Downtowns are in style again. Cities in diverse places such as the Midwest (Cleveland for example), the West (san Diego) and south ( San Antonio, cities in DFW, ETC) are trying to improve or create a central square feel.

Houston is in an interesting point in its history. Lots of interest in residential and retail downtown, but what is the draw?

I have been very critical of the downtown shopping district proposal because there is no real draw.

I think a square would work here. People would not no what to do with it? We don't need to know what to do with it. A square is just an attractive breathing space. Many cities use it as a central dumping ground for PT users.

I guarantee you anything that if a shopping district developed around a square downtown, people would have a reason to shop there.

People don't walk downtown because there is nothing to see. Combine the draw of Discovery Green with shopping and I am telling you the opinions of Houston would instantly change.

1. Discovery Green by itself lacks interaction with the city. Its just a park, it could be anywhere.

2. The shopping district by itself lacks a draw. They will be just stores. Why go there?

When we build we build little independent islands. We need to connect those islands. They draw more people that way

[Texasota]

People do walk downtown, but not near Discovery Green.

They walk along Main Street and around ...Market Square!

There is enough of a concentration of things to do in that area now that it's really starting to change. 

[Subdude]

I used to think that if Houston were to have a civic square the best location would be the Main-Texas-Fannin-Capitol block (catty-corner from the Rice) but that will now be the location of the new Hines tower.

 

 

I guarantee you anything that if a shopping district developed around a square downtown, people would have a reason to shop there.

People don't walk downtown because there is nothing to see. Combine the draw of Discovery Green with shopping and I am telling you the opinions of Houston would instantly change.

1. Discovery Green by itself lacks interaction with the city. Its just a park, it could be anywhere.

2. The shopping district by itself lacks a draw. They will be just stores. Why go there?

When we build we build little independent islands. We need to connect those islands. They draw more people that way

 

You could be right, but trying to develop a downtown shopping district has a whole bunch of problems itself.  It would probably depend on the nature of the retail.  I still think it would be necessary to have some sort of "anchor".  Historically it seems this role has typically been filled by a cathedral, city hall, or perhaps a major museum.

 

 

[H-Town Man]

One thing is for sure, you don't create a great square overnight. Rather, you start with what you have, and you stick with it. Right now, Market Square and Disco Green are what we have. Market Square in particular is on people's radar. Let's see what happens as they evolve.

This sort of reminds me of this high school where I worked that wanted to create this beautiful gathering space for the students. So they hired an architect, had a big capital campaign, built it, and it looked beautiful. But the place the students hung out was by the back stairway, not an intends gather space at all, where natural light fell in from the windows and you had just the right balance of open and closed in, access and privacy.

So, second point: sometimes you don't create great spaces. You find them.

[cloud713]

I think you've got the physical aspect down.  It seems to help if the plaza is central, has important buildings about and somewhat of an enclosed feeling (as Discovery Green does not). 

Once Marriott Marquis is built Discovery Green will be enclosed on 3 sides. imagine if the structure of the GRB was strong enough to build a few highrises on top of it (enclosing the 4th side), and turn whats left of the roof area into a large amenity deck/spaces for the tenants. that would be cool if they implemented something like that in the 2025 master plan. i kind of wish they would at least change up the design a little and maybe put some GFR along the park.

[HoustonIsHome]

People do walk downtown, but not near Discovery Green.

They walk along Main Street and around ...Market Square!

There is enough of a concentration of things to do in that area now that it's really starting to change.

 

The walking you talk about is not in the league if the walking I am talking about.

There is very little interest on main right now. Houston has the second largest population in a 2 to 5 mile radius around downtown and yet you see 5 or 6 people walking along main.

Don't be making excuses for downtown, it is improving but still very week.

 

I used to think that if Houston were to have a civic square the best location would be the Main-Texas-Fannin-Capitol block (catty-corner from the Rice) but that will now be the location of the new Hines tower.

 

 

You could be right, but trying to develop a downtown shopping district has a whole bunch of problems itself.  It would probably depend on the nature of the retail.  I still think it would be necessary to have some sort of "anchor".  Historically it seems this role has typically been filled by a cathedral, city hall, or perhaps a major museum.

I think you are 200% correct and that's why I think the shopping district won't have any legs. We need anchors and the same reason why we don't have much of a reason to draw shoppers downtown is the reason why we don't have a reason for retail anchors to be drawn downtown.

There is no draw. A square means cohesiveness. A square improves the feel and look of the shopping experience.

A macys down on main, then another store down the street around the corner doesn't sound like anything special.

Take union square for example. Its a hardscaped plot with a giant penis in the middle. Not a ton of attractions, very simple, but it is one of the most successful in the US. It is anchored by Saks, Neimans, Barneys, Bloomingdales, Macys and Nordstrom.

What would we offer any of those anchors that is new and exciting that would make them want to open downtown?

We need something big. A park may draw residential, but retail (especially anchors) need more.

We need to package whatever we build to make it attractive. Union square is successful because it is not just a public space, it is public space with shopping, restaurants, offices, etc

[HoustonIsHome]

I like green space better than hard space, so I'm going to have to disagree with you that Houston needs a square as you define it. Parks are great, and Market Square is a great area with lots of activity.

 

"Too much traffic" reads like a Yogi Berra line: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

 

Just because you prefer greenspace doesn't mean we don't need a square. I prefer green space too. I think it works be a darn near unanimous choice over hardspace. But that has nothing to do with what a square creates.

The open atmosphere the square creates gives the area a sense of connection. You have a view of the other pedestrians. You see the activity. You want to be a part of it. Its part of the city, it ties it together.

 

I think the closest things we have to "European style squares" here in Houston would be the plaza's around Reliant Stadium?  And it seems to serve the same purpose.

Sorry Arche, the plazas around reliant are far from what I am talking about and they do not serve anywhere near the same purpose.

There are about six empty (for now)  blocks infront of Minute Maid that would be an awesome spot for a square.

if houston were to adopt a plan for a large scale "square", it would need to adopt a very specific type of location.  (with the expectation that future density will continue to increase between our major centers of activity) montrose at westheimer for instance, or main at elgin.  or, a location somewhat equal in distance between downtown, med center and uptown.

 I agree that location would make an awesome crossroads, but the goal here is making downtown mite interesting and drawing retail. Building it in midtown will just make midtown that much more awesome than downtown.

 

One thing is for sure, you don't create a great square overnight. Rather, you start with what you have, and you stick with it. Right now, Market Square and Disco Green are what we have. Market Square in particular is on people's radar. Let's see what happens as they evolve.

This sort of reminds me of this high school where I worked that wanted to create this beautiful gathering space for the students. So they hired an architect, had a big capital campaign, built it, and it looked beautiful. But the place the students hung out was by the back stairway, not an intends gather space at all, where natural light fell in from the windows and you had just the right balance of open and closed in, access and privacy.

So, second point: sometimes you don't create great spaces. You find them.

On your first point I partially agree, these things don't come over night, but if we have a laissez faire attitude we will never get them. Look what our "lets see what happens next" has gotten us. Our last department store was blown to bits.

Your second point I could not disagree with more. New York, Philly, SF, Chicago, Baltimore all have interesting areas because the city worked hard to attract interest.

Market Square you can cross off your list right now because there is little room for upgrades.

Discovery Green is too large with too many sight hinderances and has had too many missed opportunity to create a good square. The buildings that were already there did not interact with the surroundings and the buildings that were later built continued that trend.

There might be more residential and more restaurants around those two parks, but they are definitely not going to develop into much more than what they are now.

They were developed as spaces where people drive to, enjoy the greenspace and drive back home. They were not developed with large scale attractions in mind.

I for one don't want market square to be overrun. The bars are great, and I love what Hines is planning for the area.

Major retail would be out of place at market square. It would fit in at Disco green, but disco green is already near built out.

So I disagree with you. We need space to develop new and exciting and we need incentives to drive what we want to see.

Really the only spits that are left that would accommodate a nice square are:

1. The seven empty/ near empty blocks infront of MM park

2. The five or 6 near empty blocks between Bell Station and Exxon.

3. The 16 or so near empty blocks south of Toyota center, north of 45, west of 59 and east of Austin Street

[largeTEXAS]

Squares work best when they serve as easy, convenient access points between other activity centers (such as office, retail, residential, museums ...or, in the old days, churches). Most successful modern squares are above or next to major transit hubs (Union Sq and Times Sq in NY, Zócalo DF, Rynek Glowny in Krakow, Trafalfar Sq London). Only way one will work in Houston is that it's adjacent to major transit and between many activity centers. Montrose @ Westheimer is a candidate. Westheimer and Post Oak would also probably work. These obviously assume major reworking of some of the existing structures.

[H-Town Man]

 

Your second point I could not disagree with more. New York, Philly, SF, Chicago, Baltimore all have interesting areas because the city worked hard to attract interest.

 

 

Most of the successful squares in these cities did not become what they are until after decades if not centuries of urban evolution. Houston is just beginning to rediscover its urban core and we do not even have more than a handful of people walking on downtown streets yet. It is fun to speculate, but it is impossible to guess at this point which block will have the ingredients of a great public gathering place once there are actually people outside to be gathered.

 

The city has made several forays into the public square development business. Market Square is a good bar/restaurant neighborhood spot, but as you say, doesn't have retail (but then, what does?). Tranquility Park is an abject failure as a people spot, although it does at least provide some nice greenspace in front of our skyline. Main Street Square is a work in progress, but will need at bare minimum for a couple of the parking garages to be got rid of before it takes off. It at least has public memory and history going for it, which you lose as you go further afield. We might just end up closing off Main Street to traffic from there to the bayou and the whole thing becomes our square. Discovery Green, although it doesn't look like it will have much retail directly on it, might nonetheless evolve into a great crossroads of everything that is happening in east downtown.

 

I don't think we can expect the city to make any new ventures into downtown square develoment anytime soon, unless an amazing opportunity were to come along (e.g. Skanska tears down Houston Club building, the economy crashes, nothing gets built there, and the city somehow gets the land for a bargain). In the long run, I think our best hope is one of the squares already mentioned. But there needs to be people out there first. Otherwise it's like planning your living room before you even have a house.

[HoustonIsHome]

Main street is still the number one convergence street for public transportation and downtown has by far the highest daytime population of any area in Houston.

A huge percentage of the busses dump passengers on main street.

Westheimer and Montrose is rather the sleepy in comparison.

Westheimer and post oak world probably be the worst intersection for a square in all of Texas.

Squares are anti car and you suggest taking the most heavily car dependent corner in all of the southern United States and building a square there?

Most highly functional squares are blocked off to cars altogether or have narrow slow moving car lanes.

Downtown already has the high concentration of public transportation, it us surrounded by fairly well developed neighborhoods and the through car traffic on the east side of downtown isn't as hazardous as post oak.

A block or two of traffic can easily be removed without much notice because many already don't go all the way through.

Try blocking off any spot along Westheimer and see how that goes. Blocking westheimer at post oak would be kind closing off uptown's Aorta. Leaving it open would result in a drive by square.

Why would anyone want to improve downtown and build the square 6 miles away next to a huge enclosed mall?

Enclosed malls are highly suburban, white squares are highly urban features. i don't get it.

You are taking one feature (highly travelled areas) and ignoring a dozen others.

Westheimer and post oak had the density but it fails in every other category.

Uptown had the makings of a modern central business district, but urban it is not. The only business district which feels as urban as Downtown is TMC.