Parkside Residences: 43-Story Residential High-Rise For Block 98

[Highrise Tower]

 

 

[mls1202]

That last photo of the drill made me think to ask the question--how deep is the bedrock layer here in the Houston area?  I know we have a lot of clay , but I imagine drilling into the bedrock to build your supports can't be that deep.  I have no doubt we have some first hand knowledge on this board.

[thatguysly]

46 minutes ago, mls1202 said:

That last photo of the drill made me think to ask the question--how deep is the bedrock layer here in the Houston area?  I know we have a lot of clay , but I imagine drilling into the bedrock to build your supports can't be that deep.  I have no doubt we have some first hand knowledge on this board.

 

Tangledwood has all your answers. See the last post on the previous page.

[Paco Jones]

4 hours ago, mls1202 said:

That last photo of the drill made me think to ask the question--how deep is the bedrock layer here in the Houston area?  I know we have a lot of clay , but I imagine drilling into the bedrock to build your supports can't be that deep.  I have no doubt we have some first hand knowledge on this board.

I don't know the answer to your question, but soil boring goes from 100' down to 150'.  Even at 150' there  is still just reddish-brown clay.  

 

This is from a geotechnical report that was done for a project inside the loop.

 

 

[Ross]

5 hours ago, mls1202 said:

That last photo of the drill made me think to ask the question--how deep is the bedrock layer here in the Houston area?  I know we have a lot of clay , but I imagine drilling into the bedrock to build your supports can't be that deep.  I have no doubt we have some first hand knowledge on this board.

Somewhere around 30,000 feet. There are sedimentary rocks at shallower depths, but no bedrock as is known in other parts of the country.

[Twinsanity02]

3 minutes ago, Paco Jones said:

I don't know the answer to your question, but soil boring goes from 100' down to 150'.  Even at 150' there  is still just reddish-brown clay.  

 

This is from a geotechnical report that was done for a project inside the loop.

 

 

Let me understand this. There are 33 ft of clay followed by 37 feet of sand? Which is then followed by 25 feet of clay, 25 feet of sand, and finally 30 feet of clay.

Amazing. Here in Houston I thought it was clay to the Earth's core.

[hindesky]

The tower crane's base is installed in what will be the sidewalk and a lane of traffic, so its temporary and will be removed. The tower crane operator says the rest of it will be erected next weekend. Sewer tie-in has steel plates covering the street.

 

 

[tangledwoods]

Quote

Let me understand this. There are 33 ft of clay followed by 37 feet of sand? Which is then followed by 25 feet of clay, 25 feet of sand, and finally 30 feet of clay.

Amazing. Here in Houston I thought it was clay to the Earth's core.

 

We have very naughty layers to our soil.  Clay is not great and sand is not great but neither are of any particular concern, you just design a foundation system that jives with that soil.  The problem we run into a lot is layering like Paco showed from his geotech.  We actually have a decent amount of "underground streams" or sandy layers which really screw with your foundations.  You either have to keep it high and tight (spread footings / mat foundation) OR you have to get past the sand into a bearing layer (drilled piers / ACP / etc).

 

TLDR: dirt aka "soil" is extremely complicated / important and also hella boring.  BUT it is a huge part of a project cost and the developer receives virtually no ROI to your foundation of choosing.  Which is why we spend a lot of time during design arguing about and pricing options for different foundation designs.

[ArtNsf]

On 9/25/2020 at 11:17 AM, tangledwoods said:

So what your are looking at here are Auger Cast Piles.  In Houston these typically go deep (60 - 120+ feet deep) and rely largely on skin friction with the soil.  We do NOT "go to bedrock" in Houston, it is simply too far down to get to.

 

Fun fact: Many of the tall building foundations downtown are VERY shallow.  They use a mat slab which is anywhere between 8-15 feet thick across the entire footprint of the building. 

 

Thank you tangledwoods very much for helping me to understand these factors about the foundations of tall structures in our own unique Houston coastal soil and ground structure !  I had also wondered all these years if we had any bedrock within striking range so to speak of the sand and gumbo clay of east and se Houston all the way to the coast.  It seems as though we do, but it's just too far down below the surface to be economically feasible to use it.

 

Which leads me to my next comment and curiosity (or my ongoing "someday dream") for downtown. And, that is the hope of another but much higher supertall tower like one approaching or exceeding 100 stories and how they would be able to support this super structure from below.  I do know that it's going to happen ONE DAY in the future and I also believe we Houstonians want something that is the tallest and most gorgeous supertall in the U.S. for our own Houston and Texas pride.  All which would be well worth the cost of building such an iconic building or buildings.  Now, if we could only find dedicated funding from both federal and local municipal funds to help out some awesome developer along with a very generous proud Houstonian philanthropist with plenty of financial resources to make it happen in our lifetimes.  Hmmm......  😀

Edited September 28, 2020 by ArtNsf

[H-Town Man]

35 minutes ago, tangledwoods said:

 

We have very naughty layers to our soil.  Clay is not great and sand is not great but neither are of any particular concern, you just design a foundation system that jives with that soil.  The problem we run into a lot is layering like Paco showed from his geotech.  We actually have a decent amount of "underground streams" or sandy layers which really screw with your foundations.  You either have to keep it high and tight (spread footings / mat foundation) OR you have to get past the sand into a bearing layer (drilled piers / ACP / etc).

 

TLDR: dirt aka "soil" is extremely complicated / important and also hella boring.  BUT it is a huge part of a project cost and the developer receives virtually no ROI to your foundation of choosing.  Which is why we spend a lot of time during design arguing about and pricing options for different foundation designs.

 

So how long can any of these buildings last if they're not on rock?

 

[thatguysly]

57 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

So how long can any of these buildings last if they're not on rock?

 

 

Quite a while. Nothing in Houston is on rock. From skyscrapers to refineries to airports everything is on pilings. 

[tangledwoods]

When talking about a building foundation, no properly designed or built foundation system will ever be the linchpin in a building lifespan.  A good foundation will last FAR longer than anything built above it.  NOTE: I am talking about large public or private buildings, I am not talking about under 6 story timber framed anything.

 

FYI foundations are subject to differential settlement in our soils (differential meaning that your building is falling or rising differently from adjacent ones).  For a building like Texas Tower or other tall structures you expect to see 3 windows of settlement:

1. initial (foundation install to right after install)
2. during construction (as the concrete or steel frame adds weight the building sinks)
3. upon completion

During phase 1-2 you MIGHT see 2-6 inches (it will all be engineered and expected).  Upon completion you will see less than an inch and then it becomes part of the neighborhood and is no longer subject to any tangible differential settlement. 

 

Foundation failures are extremely rare but they do happen.  A good recent example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Tower_(San_Francisco)#Sinking_and_tilting_problem

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, thatguysly said:

 

Quite a while. Nothing in Houston is on rock. From skyscrapers to refineries to airports everything is on pilings. 

 

Yes. But whether other buildings in Houston are on rock will not affect the lifespan of downtown skyscrapers. If a mat foundation tilts a little, it affects a 1,000 ft building more than it affects a refinery or an airport. And there is much more weight on it to make it tilt.

 

 

1 hour ago, tangledwoods said:

When talking about a building foundation, no properly designed or built foundation system will ever be the linchpin in a building lifespan.  A good foundation will last FAR longer than anything built above it.  NOTE: I am talking about large public or private buildings, I am not talking about under 6 story timber framed anything.

 

FYI foundations are subject to differential settlement in our soils (differential meaning that your building is falling or rising differently from adjacent ones).  For a building like Texas Tower or other tall structures you expect to see 3 windows of settlement:

1. initial (foundation install to right after install)
2. during construction (as the concrete or steel frame adds weight the building sinks)
3. upon completion

During phase 1-2 you MIGHT see 2-6 inches (it will all be engineered and expected).  Upon completion you will see less than an inch and then it becomes part of the neighborhood and is no longer subject to any tangible differential settlement. 

 

Foundation failures are extremely rare but they do happen.  A good recent example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Tower_(San_Francisco)#Sinking_and_tilting_problem

 

So in 100 or 200 years, our tallest towers are still standing perfectly straight? Or does some other factor (brittleness of structural frame?) get them before then?

 

[Ross]

On 9/27/2020 at 3:35 PM, Twinsanity02 said:

Let me understand this. There are 33 ft of clay followed by 37 feet of sand? Which is then followed by 25 feet of clay, 25 feet of sand, and finally 30 feet of clay.

Amazing. Here in Houston I thought it was clay to the Earth's core.

 

At a more macro level, we have clay layers interspersed with aquifer layers for several thousand feet. Lots of sand and clay, not much that's solid.

 

8 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

So how long can any of these buildings last if they're not on rock?

 

Depends. If things stay as they are, centuries.

[hindesky]

The tower crane is going up this weekend.Rode by early and then a second time after the Heights Rally and Scavenger Hunt. Talked with someone who said it will be 200' high initially but will eventually climb to 500' as needed.

 

[Highrise Tower]

 

 

 

[hindesky]

Tower crane was getting the jib installed when I rode by. Only thing left is the counterweights. Asked a Keystone worker if the building has a name yet and he said no.

[Paco Jones]

3 hours ago, hindesky said:

Tower crane was getting the jib installed when I rode by. Only thing left is the counterweights. Asked a Keystone worker if the building has a name yet and he said no.

As of right now it is being called Discovery Tower. 

[nate4l1f3]

Was Discovery Green named after the Discovery Shuttle?

[H-Town Man]

11 minutes ago, nate4l1f3 said:

Was Discovery Green named after the Discovery Shuttle?

 

I would say, named with the shuttle in mind as a sort of vague tribute to the city's connection with space exploration. Not so much the shuttle itself as the whole spirit of NASA's endeavors over the years.

 

And with the double meaning of being a place for kids to discover things and for Houstonians to discover what urbanism is.

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by H-Town Man

[nate4l1f3]

3 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

I would say, named with the shuttle in mind as a sort of vague tribute to the city's connection with space exploration. Not so much the shuttle itself as the whole spirit of NASA's endeavors over the years.

 

And with the double meaning of being a place for kids to discover things and for Houstonians to discover what urbanism is.

 

I was watching the Challenger documentary on Netflix last night and it kinda hit me with all the Discovery shuttle talk. 

[hindesky]

Pic taken by the crane operator 

[Response]

You have a lot of friends in high places. 🙂

[X.R.]

Man, Minute Maid Fridays with the fireworks is going to be special when living over there. Didn't realize that. 

 

[mollusk]

(***cue Sarah McLaughlin***) And what will become of those poor surface parking lots?  No one seems to want them...

[Highrise Tower]

 

 

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

While checking out the Trammel Crow and Andres websites they have 2 conflicting images of what this building will look like, I sure hope it ends up being the latter.

 

[Yoda]

12 hours ago, hindesky said:

While checking out the Trammel Crow and Andres websites they have 2 conflicting images of what this building will look like, I sure hope it ends up being the latter.

 

There were multiple renderings released over a few years for this. The bottom picture is the most recent and supposedly final rendering.

[hindesky]

There was a bus and several motorcycle cops about to escort the Jacksonville Jaguars team from the Marriott Marquis to the Texans game

[hindesky]

Crawler cranes are to be dismantled this weekend, street closures.

1500 Walker [La Branch & Crawford]
Friday, October 16 [7PM]  to Sunday, October 18 [7pm]
Closed for a Crane de-mobilization. 
Detour: Crawford, left on Capitol, left on LaBranch. 
Contact: Jack Koop, Andres Construction, 214-521-2118

[hindesky]

[hindesky]

[Urbannizer]

Canon EOS RP with Canon RF 24-240mm F4-6.3 IS USM by George Zimzores, on Flickr

[Luminare]

On 10/10/2020 at 11:41 PM, hindesky said:

While checking out the Trammel Crow and Andres websites they have 2 conflicting images of what this building will look like, I sure hope it ends up being the latter.

 

 

If I were a bettin man, I would put money on @Paco Jones and the stuff he posted. So my money is on the final render.

[jermh]

7 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

If I were a bettin man, I would put money on @Paco Jones and the stuff he posted. So my money is on the final render.

 

The top rendering is old design concept. This has a rendering from inside the pool area. 

[HouTXRanger]

Although I'll never be able to afford it, damn is that a slick looking tower. I wonder if it'll be one of the city's "Historic" landmarks by 2100 . . .

[Highrise Tower]

 

[hindesky]

The Green Bay Packers were staying at the Marriott Marquis and starting to load the busses for the trip to NRG stadium.

[Nate99]

On 10/21/2020 at 9:27 AM, HouTXRanger said:

Although I'll never be able to afford it, damn is that a slick looking tower. I wonder if it'll be one of the city's "Historic" landmarks by 2100 . . .

 

Either that or they'll spend six months chipping all of these pilings out. 

[hindesky]

The "Putzmeister" concrete pump, to be installed next week according to a worker.

http://campaigns.putzmeister.com/en/web/americas/products/-/product-category/series/52557/53222/9753379/concrete/placing-systems/mx-3438z/mx-3438z

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by hindesky

[Highrise Tower]

 

 

 

[cityliving]

[tangledwoods]

Quote

Putzmeister = she fancy!

Most people have no idea how incredible advanced the concrete business has gotten.  You can look at things like these placing booms or the self climbing formwork (checkout the latest pics on The Allen for a good example).  

 

What is going to be really interesting in the next 24 months is if any of the new developer jobs go to steel frame.  Steel prices have collapsed and concrete hasnt really dropped.  Wood products are going up in price and I think we might see 1-2 jobs switch to steel if they aren't too invested in the structural design.

[X.R.]

21 minutes ago, tangledwoods said:

Most people have no idea how incredible advanced the concrete business has gotten.  You can look at things like these placing booms or the self climbing formwork (checkout the latest pics on The Allen for a good example).  

 

What is going to be really interesting in the next 24 months is if any of the new developer jobs go to steel frame.  Steel prices have collapsed and concrete hasnt really dropped.  Wood products are going up in price and I think we might see 1-2 jobs switch to steel if they aren't too invested in the structural design.

 

I've been wondering this: is there an advantage over using steel vs concrete/wood? I've seen your question in other threads and just wondered since no onw has really answered it.

[tangledwoods]

Quote

I've been wondering this: is there an advantage over using steel vs concrete/wood? I've seen your question in other threads and just wondered since no onw has really answered it.

 

In developer world advantage = dollars.  So that is why we see so many concrete frames for tall buildings.  Back when the Chevron new 50+ story was real, that project was slated to use steel. 

 

There are really 2-3 positives to steel vs concrete:

1. Steel typically has a lower interstitial depth (distance from bottom of structure to finished floor above). On a tall building, this can add up to decent savings:  if your structure reduces 5" per floor then on that 50 story building you could cut 21ft of facade out and still have equal interior spaces.
2. Steel typically is faster than concrete.  On a tall building steel will go up much faster than a concrete frame.
3. Steel is more flexible.  If you have a building with geometry, long spans, or variable column spacing, steel can be easier to work with.
4. Bonus: steel is seen as more environmentally friendly (not that Texas cares too much).  Concrete (specifically the cement used in concrete) is responsible for 8% ish of all CO2 emissions in the world.  Both steel and concrete are recyclable but steel is more often recycled and a lower carbon footprint.

[H-Town Man]

21 minutes ago, tangledwoods said:

 

In developer world advantage = dollars.  So that is why we see so many concrete frames for tall buildings.  Back when the Chevron new 50+ story was real, that project was slated to use steel. 

 

There are really 2-3 positives to steel vs concrete:

1. Steel typically has a lower interstitial depth (distance from bottom of structure to finished floor above). On a tall building, this can add up to decent savings:  if your structure reduces 5" per floor then on that 50 story building you could cut 21ft of facade out and still have equal interior spaces.
2. Steel typically is faster than concrete.  On a tall building steel will go up much faster than a concrete frame.
3. Steel is more flexible.  If you have a building with geometry, long spans, or variable column spacing, steel can be easier to work with.
4. Bonus: steel is seen as more environmentally friendly (not that Texas cares too much).  Concrete (specifically the cement used in concrete) is responsible for 8% ish of all CO2 emissions in the world.  Both steel and concrete are recyclable but steel is more often recycled and a lower carbon footprint.

 

Interesting. So what are the advantages of concrete over steel? Isn't it usually cheaper? Is it more fire resistant? More rigid?

 

[tangledwoods]

4 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Interesting. So what are the advantages of concrete over steel? Isn't it usually cheaper? Is it more fire resistant? More rigid?

 

 

1. Concrete frames are almost always cheaper (but that might be changing)
2. Concrete is more flexible for slab edge facade anchorage (unless you are using lost of post tensioning)
3. Concrete doesn't typically require additional fireproofing 

[H-Town Man]

55 minutes ago, tangledwoods said:

 

1. Concrete frames are almost always cheaper (but that might be changing)
2. Concrete is more flexible for slab edge facade anchorage (unless you are using lost of post tensioning)
3. Concrete doesn't typically require additional fireproofing 

 

And rigidity? Do concrete buildings sway as much in the wind?

 

[tangledwoods]

Quote

And rigidity? Do concrete buildings sway as much in the wind?

i am NOT an engineer, but from the construction side we do talk about movement (sway) and it isnt really a consideration until you get very very tall (then you get fun things like tuned mass dampers).

 

In my experience, there is no difference between concrete and steel on building sway.