What Happens When Midtown Runs Out Of Land To Build On

[Howard Huge]

I dont really want to debate the probability of if or when this is going to happen, but rather let's just assume it is going to happen at some point.

What is your opinion of the next step of midtown growth?

Will we build UP?

Will we tear down the old and build new?

Will midtowns boundaries expand?

I'd like to hear yalls opinion...

[bachanon]

as available land becomes scarce in midtown, i would think that interest would increase east southeast across 59 and building heights would increase in midtown proper.  proximity to LRT and the amenities near midtown will become better and the desire to live close to the, as yet forming, central city core will continue to increase.  i would expect some of the east montrose residential would become higher density as well.

 

that said, we have yet to see what effect if any the additional LRT lines will have on development trends.  i'm not suggesting that midtown's growth is because of LRT alone, but i do think that the demand for property north and east of downtown could possibly quell the need to go higher in midtown.  i think that the feasibility of going higher in midtown will be less if left to residential development alone.

 

we are seeing taller residential around hermann park because it is.....the park.  i would expect to see more height around the best amenities (hermann park/allen parkway/discovery green/galleria) before too much height would appear in midtown.

[Howard Huge]

as available land becomes scarce in midtown, i would think that interest would increase east southeast across 59 and building heights would increase in midtown proper. proximity to LRT and the amenities near midtown will become better and the desire to live close to the, as yet forming, central city core will continue to increase. i would expect some of the east montrose residential would become higher density as well.

that said, we have yet to see what effect if any the additional LRT lines will have on development trends. i'm not suggesting that midtown's growth is because of LRT alone, but i do think that the demand for property north and east of downtown could possibly quell the need to go higher in midtown. i think that the feasibility of going higher in midtown will be less if left to residential development alone.

we are seeing taller residential around hermann park because it is.....the park. i would expect to see more height around the best amenities (hermann park/allen parkway/discovery green/galleria) before too much height would appear in midtown.

Excellent post!

Going on what you said about building around the parks, and seeing the impact disco green has had, do you think the park on the superblock will be big/significant enough to spur any additional development around it? Perhaps a developer buying out the Cadillac plot?

[bachanon]

i'm not sure.  i considered that for moment, but initially doubted it would inspire taller buildings.  after all, if you're so high you only see neighboring buildings and not the park below, it loses the effect.  the majority of the units will need a view to justify 30 story residential.  10 stories, sure.  25 stories, no.

 

as i wrote the last sentence just then, it occurred to me; what if the view of downtown and the medical center are spectacular near the super block (which i'm thinking are probably not too bad).  a nice park to walk around is an amenity regardless of whether or not you can see it from your window/balcony.  i'm simply thinking "out loud".......given that there would be good to great views of the city, a light rail line, and a park, in a great location; maybe taller buildings around an area like the superblock has more potential than i originally thought.

 

if you remember in the past when many of us dreamed of "critical mass"; there is potential for two connecting city centers (such as downtown and tmc) to reach critical mass (a point where height might be desirable) at a faster rate than outlying areas will (only) achieve greater density. it seems as if houston is rapidly becoming more dense but it could be 50 years before we have a completely dense central city. in the midst of all of this growth and excitement will emerge a new and larger city center (perceived center, not memorial city population "center").  i think that downtown and the medical center are where this will most likely occur.  additional transportation options connecting to LRT are important factors.  our street grid is a big help.  midtown is in the middle of all of this.  greenway plaza, too far.  galleria, too far.

 

when it comes down to it, houston is so big, that we may have a generation of 8-10 story buildings, block after block, before we ever see enough tall buildings to "connect" our city centers....assuming humans never develop new building systems, transportation systems do not change over time, and people continue to be the same.....which we know is not the case.

 

as much as i hope it doesn't occur, midtown could become the greenspoint of the inner city too.  imagine if the bayou plan were fully realized and houston begins to face it's attention to the port, east.  new developments spring up down harrisburg/navigation and the young professionals of the next generation flock east and rents begin to sink in midtown.  the cool restaurants leave and midtown is the place to "get out of" at dusk.  remember, houston is big.  we are only now developing higher density neighborhoods.  growth trends can turn outward or in other directions for many reasons.

 

to end on a positive note, the hypothetical negative scenario would take many many years.  in my lifetime, barring natural or man made upheavals, or environmental/economic disasters, midtown should continue to grow upwards (even if it's just 8-10 story buildings between DT & TMC) for the foreseeable future.

 

that's my two cents.............

 

 

[Moore713]

I do see main giving way to to highraises..it just seems to have that kind ok look

[Slick Vik]

Tear down pierce elevated and take down the unnecessary boundary.

[Howard Huge]

i'm not sure. i considered that for moment, but initially doubted it would inspire taller buildings. after all, if you're so high you only see neighboring buildings and not the park below, it loses the effect. the majority of the units will need a view to justify 30 story residential. 10 stories, sure. 25 stories, no.

as i wrote the last sentence just then, it occurred to me; what if the view of downtown and the medical center are spectacular near the super block (which i'm thinking are probably not too bad). a nice park to walk around is an amenity regardless of whether or not you can see it from your window/balcony. i'm simply thinking "out loud".......given that there would be good to great views of the city, a light rail line, and a park, in a great location; maybe taller buildings around an area like the superblock has more potential than i originally thought.

I think a "One Park Place" built on the cadillac land with sweeping views of the med center/downtown with the park as its backyard would be amazing at that location, and as you said, it would literally be right at the rail stop.

Prime location right there, damn you Stewart Cadillac.

[Howard Huge]

Speaking of the Red Line, I just had a thought.

With 3800 Main going up, then The entire MidMain complex, then Match, then the Superblock project, then Alexan Midtown, that will cover almost the entire stretch of rail on Main in midtown, save for a few remaining empty lots:

The two lots @ Main and Wheeler (former theatre and McDonalds), a full city block across from the Ventana (4001 Main st), and the huge parking lot across from the bus station/2016 Main.

In my opinion, the most crucial block of those is the lot across from Greyhound.

Since those building there (Central Bank, 2016 Main) are basically part of downtown Houstons skyline, I would like to add onto the skyline some more, either an office building, residential, or mixed use (with ground floor retail of course) in the 30-50 story range would be bad ass, and it would add to our skyline stretching into midtown. I get chills just dreaming of it!

Hey swstig, heard any wild spec proposals concerning this lot?

[bachanon]

many car dealerships these days are adapting to changing customer sensibilities and land use changes.  many dealerships are occupying space in troubled malls (show room inside where the people are walking about/lot in the vast parking lot outside).  in fact, there are dealer groups that have taken over small malls.  there is a dealer in dallas who has a dog park with pond and is pet-friendly.  if your car is in for service, you bring fido and head to the park while you wait.  the same dealer has a wine bar/cafe with tastings and a wine club.  you can bring fido, get loaded, and take home a case of wine.

 

stewart cadillac is in a great position to do something new.  why not redevelop the property as a mixed use concept with a satellite dealership inside.  capitalize on the demographic in midtown.  capitalize on the property's potential.  as midtown becomes more dense and pedestrian traffic increases, why not have windows opening to the sidewalks with your shiny new cars inside?  why not scale down the suburban type dealership model and create a property that diversifies the income coming from that location (while keeping a presence in midtown).

 

here in the woodlands, we have an audi dealership in market street, a fiat dealership at waterway square, and soon a ferrari dealership also at waterway square.  all satellite stores, which means there are not too many vehicles to look at, (but their stock is nearby).  it's cool to be walking around after dinner and to walk by a modern showroom with bright shiny cars inside.  people point and consider whether they should come back during business hours for a test drive.

 

auto dealerships should be in the midtown mix....as should a scooter store, come to think of it.  someone should be selling vespas in midtown if they aren't already.

 

[Howard Huge]

auto dealerships should be in the midtown mix....as should a scooter store, come to think of it. someone should be selling vespas in midtown if they aren't already.

Ok, I agree with that, just not at the lot it currently occupies.

Theres a throng of nightlife on either side of the superblock, Glitter Karaoke/Reef/Proof on one side, Leons Lounge/Mongoose vs Cobra/Capital Bar on the other, with the retail of the Superblock filling in the gap soon. If there was more bars/lounges across the street where Stewart is you would have an entire walkable stretch of retail/nightlife along McGowan possibly bringing in more development and rivaling whats become of the Post on west gray stretch.

Also, Im stealing your Vespa idea, thanks.

[brian0123]

Former Midtown board member here. I doubt Midtown's boundaries will expand much further since it's a TIRZ and there are rules about how they can expand. Plus, expanding would mean they'd have to provide additional services to a larger area (i.e. constable patrols, park upkeep, graffiti removal, etc.).

 

As for Midtown, I think all of the empty lots on the SE quadrant of Downtown will need to fill up first before Midtown ever starts to see apt buildings knocked down for even taller buildings (and there are a ton of empty lots there). My guess is that in Midtown, you'll see some of the older strip malls owned by the various longtime families knocked down and replaced with something larger (i.e. like what happenend to the old strip mall that was replaced by Camden Travis). I think Midtown will be a primarily residential neighborhood. HCC Central campus will probably continue to expand and they might one day build some taller buildings.

 

I think between Midtown, Downtown, East Downtown, Washington, and possibly even 3rd and 5th wards... you'll have enough space for a very long time to support the youngest workers and development will be dispersed amongst those areas accordingly. I think the biggest "in the loop" upward growth will be the TMC area and possibly even down by Reliant (see http://www.texasmedicalcenter.org/files/24/ )

[bachanon]

Excellent input. The demand for growth in the area is not contingent upon the geographical limitations of the TIRZ however. Or, did I misunderstand the question?

[brian0123]

Excellent input. The demand for growth in the area is not contingent upon the geographical limitations of the TIRZ however. Or, did I misunderstand the question?

 

I was referring to the question earlier "will Midtown's boundaries expand?"

 

[august948]

Tear down pierce elevated and take down the unnecessary boundary.

 

Better yet, put it below grade and expand it to 10 lanes.

 

[arche_757]

Then we will name the area just south of 288/59/69 "LoMidt" (the "t" is silent) and redevelop that into a "hip" neighborhood.

[august948]

Then we will name the area just south of 288/59/69 "LoMidt" (the "t" is silent) and redevelop that into a "hip" neighborhood.

 

That mess of an interchange, 288/59/45, needs priority over anything they do to the Pierce Elevated.  Straighten that mess out, put it below grade, and expand it to 10 (or more) lanes.  Then you can build a green belt on top of it and redevelop the land around.

 

[Howard Huge]

Then we will name the area just south of 288/59/69 "LoMidt" (the "t" is silent) and redevelop that into a "hip" neighborhood.

Dear God, no!

[arche_757]

^But the silent "t" would certainly be a new trend?  Just think, if this happens we could jump out in front of the rest of the country!

[bachanon]

Then we will name the area just south of 288/59/69 "LoMidt" (the "t" is silent) and redevelop that into a "hip" neighborhood.

 

 

[arche_757]

You'll learn to love it.... over time.

[august948]

^But the silent "t" would certainly be a new trend?  Just think, if this happens we could jump out in front of the rest of the country!

As long as it doesn't end in "do", it's cool by me.

[Ross]

Better yet, put it below grade and expand it to 10 lanes.

 

 

That would probably require burying the freeway 60 to 80 feet down to avoid basements.

[Subdude]

Then we will name the area just south of 288/59/69 "LoMidt" (the "t" is silent) and redevelop that into a "hip" neighborhood.

 

If the South Downtown / Midtown neighborhood really needs one of those obnoxious names, the best suggestion came a while back on this board from Dbigtex:  call it SoDoMi.

[fatesdisastr]

the best suggestion came a while back on this board from Dbigtex:  call it SoDoMi.

 

 

Really.... Sodomy 

 

Yes I know thats not what it sounds like but that is what it looks like. I think we can do better

[Howard Huge]

Really.... Sodomy

Yes I know thats not what it sounds like but that is what it looks like. I think we can do better

................thats the joke

[IronTiger]

What happens when Midtown runs out of land? Well, the next to go would be aging structures: the Sears, for instance, has a pretty likely chance that once it closes, game over--there is going to be no effort to restore the art deco and it's going to be torn down for townhomes with street level retail. The existing factories? Gone. The Wonton Food Products Corp. will move out to greener pastures. Surface parking becomes increasingly harder to find.

[Slick Vik]

Surface parking becomes increasingly harder to find.

 

Good.

[Howard Huge]

Good.

Bob Schultz is ahead of the game, building a parking garage @ Mid Main.

[HoustonIsHome]

Midtown and downtown is still rather crappy when it comes to shopping.

I think midtown will be a whole new world when major retailers start flooding in.

I am hoping for things like the urban targets instead of those hideous drive up CVS pharmacies. Why does midtown need two CVS pharmacies anyway?

Midtown has the makings of a very pedestrian oriented neighborhood but as of right now a car makes it so much more convenient.

I would like to see more of a target, petsmart, HEB development in Midtown while letting Downtown handle the fashion/clothing retailers.

Midtown increased from about 3000 people in the 90s to 5000 in the 2000s to about 8600 now. That is awesome growth but small change considering how big midtown is and the type of development going on there. Let's look at it thus way, midtown is about 15 blocks long by about 12 blocks wide. That's over 180 blocks. So to answer the OP I think Midtown is roomie enough to handle a lot of growth without expanding landwise.

If 55% of the lots are taken up by residential, and each complex are between 250 and 350 units that would make a built out Midtown an area with about 30,000 residential units and about 50,000 residents. That seems like a lot to me. I think its time midtown overtakes Gulton as the most dense neighborhood in Houston.

So there's my cents. Midtown does not need more land. It will hopeful gain far more residential, far more retail, some more bars, dormitories for HCC would be nice, I would live to see HCC make more of an impact on the neighborhood. Finally, a few more employment centers would be nice too.

[Heightsite]

They find any piece of dirt, market it like this while cramming 8 houses on an odd lot...

http://www.ryland.com/find-your-new-home/11-houston.html