Crime and Inequality

[TGM]

You are WAY to simplistic in your view. I'm guessing you aren't struggling to feed your family, or live in a neighborhood where the guys with the most money seem to be gang-bangers or dealers? In your neighborhood, you see success first-hand being achieved via jobs and education. In poorer neighborhoods, the only success they typically see first-hand is through more nefarious means. They live in a neighborhood w/out petroleum engineers, and come from a family that has probably had more struggles than you can imagine. The only way to help them is through education and showing them first-hand examples of successful people. The Republican route of slashing education funding and reducing investments in their communities will only exacerbate crime and inequality.

What is simplistic is assuming that people living in lower-income neighborhoods are too stupid to figure things out for themselves. If that were the case then no one in poorer foreign contries would be able to put two and two together and formulate a plan to come to the United States. Furthermore once they got here and were settled in an affortable area they somehow were able to rise up without the help of the benevolent government hand. How did they do that? It's downright amazing, magical. And even more amazing is that despite the fact that they were surrounded by criminals they managed to walk the straight and narrow. The Vietnamese community is a living example of how this is possible.

[KinkaidAlum]

Funny that you should mention the successful assimilation of the Vietnamese into American culture. I take it then that you'd support some sort of Act similar to the 1975 Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act since that was obviously successful? Maybe we could extend those services to all immigrants? What say you, TGM?

 

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

[samagon]

Funny that you should mention the successful assimilation of the Vietnamese into American culture. I take it then that you'd support some sort of Act similar to the 1975 Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act since that was obviously successful? Maybe we could extend those services to all immigrants? What say you, TGM?

 

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

 

I certainly do.

 

On the subject of crime and poor people, I live in a neighborhood where most of the people that live here bought their house for peanuts, in some cases possibly literally. In this neighborhood, yes, there are some bad eggs, but for the most part everyone that lives here goes to work, they work hard, then they come home and enjoy time with their families and friends. What they may lack in material possessions, making them poor by some standards, they are morally some of the richest people I have ever known.

 

Morally poor people will always default to crime no matter their socioeconomic status, or their material wealth, it's the ones that are monetarily poor to go with it that usually end up getting caught, or can't afford the lawyers to get them out of it. 

[brian0123]

I just hope TGM watches out for all those roaming gangs of wealthy, college educated thugs who are robbing stores, dealing, and holding people up at gunpoint on a daily basis.

[Slick Vik]

What is simplistic is assuming that people living in lower-income neighborhoods are too stupid to figure things out for themselves. If that were the case then no one in poorer foreign contries would be able to put two and two together and formulate a plan to come to the United States. Furthermore once they got here and were settled in an affortable area they somehow were able to rise up without the help of the benevolent government hand. How did they do that? It's downright amazing, magical. And even more amazing is that despite the fact that they were surrounded by criminals they managed to walk the straight and narrow. The Vietnamese community is a living example of how this is possible.

 

The high majority of legal immigrants that come are not poor.

[luciaphile]

When you look into the topic of crime (property theft mainly, violent crime being way down) and the income gap, there seems to be general agreement that there's definitely a link; and that it's complex and "not well-understood."

 

The high majority of legal immigrants that come are not poor.

 

I have found the Center for Immigration Studies to be the entity that most regularly generates reports on the effects of immigration. That they have an agenda is, I would estimate, about equally balanced by the hostility they engender in the media. The result is that they seem to try very hard to prepare purely data-driven reports, in an effort to keep on topic. They know they are unwelcome at the table in any case.

 

Here's a passage from "Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children: A Look at Cash, Medicaid, Housing, and Food Programs" (http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011):

"One way to describe what happens in regard to welfare is to recognize that most immigrants come to America to work, and most find jobs. However, many of those who have children earn very low wages because of their education levels. As a result, many immigrants with children qualify for welfare programs, primarily food assistance and Medicaid. Put a different way, the nation’s welfare system is designed in part to assist low-income workers with children. A very large share of immigrants who have entered the country both legally and illegally are low-income workers with children. This has a predictable impact on the nation’s welfare system."

 

They are thus at pains to stress what we can all see: it is not an unwillingness to work that brings people to America.

 

The US Census obviously doesn't inquire about immigration status, but the CIS claims to use the methodology of the the Urban Institute, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the "former INS", the Pew Hispanic Center, and the Census Bureau itself for separating out legal immigrants from the overall foreign-born population.

 

This table shows that in 2008/2009 54% of legal immigrants to Texas used some form of welfare:

 

It might easily be argued that this data merely shows welfare working well, benefitting working people with children.

 

A lot of smart people both right and left believe it is good policy, and a permanent economic and social boon for the country, to continually increase the number of low-wage earners in the population, and to depress wages. Barbara Jordan was a rare and notable exception.

 

But a lot of the very same people believe equally strongly in, and deplore the conditions that create, this connection between relative incomes and crime.

 

My only comment: it doesn't seem like you should get to hold both these opinions, unless you have an unreasoning faith that you "can have it all."

 

[august948]

I just hope TGM watches out for all those roaming gangs of wealthy, college educated thugs who are robbing stores, dealing, and holding people up at gunpoint on a daily basis.

The better educated and wealthy, but morally deficient, tend to prefer ponzi schemes and mortgage fraud to knocking off the local liquor store.

[august948]

Funny that you should mention the successful assimilation of the Vietnamese into American culture. I take it then that you'd support some sort of Act similar to the 1975 Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act since that was obviously successful? Maybe we could extend those services to all immigrants? What say you, TGM?

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

No doubt that helped, but the primary reason Vietnamese have been successful here is cultural. Old school Vietnamese parents want their kids to be doctors, or if not an MD then at least a college educated professional and/or business owner. And they push their kids hard to acheive that. I know firsthand that many Vietnamese wonder why poor hispanics and blacks choose to remain that way generation after generation while they come here not knowing the language and with little more than the clothes on their backs and are middle class within a generation or less.

[TGM]

Or, did you forget that those bootstraps the Vietnamese pulled themselves up by were more often than not provided for by government assistance?

Rubbish. I just arrived home from a restuarant owned by someone who fled Vietnam to arrive first in Ohio. A couple hearing his story paid for him to move to Houston where he worked his butt off to ultimately own a business.

The fact of the matter is liberals like yourself and government in general needs people to need them.

[TGM]

It might easily be argued that this data merely shows welfare working well, benefitting working people with children.

Yes, welfare is a runaway phenomenal success. In fact the retention rates are amongst the highest for multi-generational households.

[Slick Vik]

No doubt that helped, but the primary reason Vietnamese have been successful here is cultural. Old school Vietnamese parents want their kids to be doctors, or if not an MD then at least a college educated professional and/or business owner. And they push their kids hard to acheive that. I know firsthand that many Vietnamese wonder why poor hispanics and blacks choose to remain that way generation after generation while they come here not knowing the language and with little more than the clothes on their backs and are middle class within a generation or less.

 

Hispanics work hard.

[august948]

Hispanics work hard.

 

No doubt.  Yet pursuing higher education, or even completing high school, isn't the priority in the hispanic community at large that it is in the Vietnamese community.

 

 

[TGM]

Hispanics work hard.

Absolutely. All groups are capable of working both hard and smart. Making choices, planing, and acting on one's plan are the basic components to success.

The entrepreneurial spirit is alive in many that arrive in this contry because they are not hamstrung by the negative talk and self-defeating behaviors of those that group up here and come to believe the pollution their families seek to instill in them.

The path out of poverty and bad neighborhoods is the same for both those living here and those fleeing the countries of their birth. It's acting with single-mindedness one step at a time, being mindfull that the things that matter the most should not be held hostage by the things that matter the least.

[samagon]

 

Hispanics work hard.

It always amazes me that stereotypes that are seen as societal positives are forgiven, but stereotypes that are not as favourable are frowned upon.

I'd say, if a person has grown up being told that they need a handout to survive, they are going to believe that. Regardless of their racial origin, or skin color.

[Fringe]

It always amazes me that stereotypes that are seen as societal positives are forgiven, but stereotypes that are not as favourable are frowned upon.

I'd say, if a person has grown up being told that they need a handout to survive, they are going to believe that. Regardless of their racial origin, or skin color.

 

I agree. There are generations of people that have relied on handouts. Would eliminating those handouts cause crime to increase or would it inspire people to succeed in life? 

[KinkaidAlum]

Rubbish. I just arrived home from a restuarant owned by someone who fled Vietnam to arrive first in Ohio. A couple hearing his story paid for him to move to Houston where he worked his butt off to ultimately own a business.

The fact of the matter is liberals like yourself and government in general needs people to need them.

 

Cool story.

 

Not sure how or why you think it takes away from what I originally posted...

 

Like a typical conservative, you ignore facts and throw out insults when defeated.

[TGM]

Cool story.

Not sure how or why you think it takes away from what I originally posted...

Like a typical conservative, you ignore facts and throw out insults when defeated.

For starters this was a private, non-government example. So the term liberal is an insult now?

[ricco67]

There is a difference between getting a helping hand and a hand out.

 

I've had neither when I grew up in the 2nd ward in the 80's.    I managed to avoid the gangs and dealers, yet here I am I have four kids, one in college and married, another just started Premed, another taking college courses in high school.  To top it off, We're looking for a home in the 250k range with a substantial downpayment because I also got lucky in the stock market (Thank you PCYC!) because in america, when you bust your ass, you will get rewarded. 

 

 

Welfare is supposed to be there when you are down to help yo up.  It's not a lifestyle for you to be dependent on.

[luciaphile]

These anecdotes are interesting, and no doubt contain home truths, but ...

 

When 42% of the native population, 54% of the legal immigrant population, and 70% of the "undocumented" population of Texas must rely on some form of government assistance, and this population growth is, we're told, essential to keep the economic engine up and running, and this status quo is commendable, even, somewhat paradoxically, a sort of libertarian paradise in action, per Forbes magazine -- well, we're all welfare queens, are we not?

[TGM]

These anecdotes are interesting, and no doubt contain home truths, but ...

When 42% of the native population, 54% of the legal immigrant population, and 70% of the "undocumented" population of Texas must rely on some form of government assistance, and this population growth is, we're told, essential to keep the economic engine up and running, and this status quo is commendable, even, somewhat paradoxically, a sort of libertarian paradise in action, per Forbes magazine -- well, we're all welfare queens, are we not?

i'd ask you to cite your source on the 70% undocumented, but since they're undocumented I'm wondering if there is any documentation to support it.

[Slick Vik]

No doubt.  Yet pursuing higher education, or even completing high school, isn't the priority in the hispanic community at large that it is in the Vietnamese community.

 

Asians in general tend to push education.

[luciaphile]

i'd ask you to cite your source on the 70% undocumented, but since they're undocumented I'm wondering if there is any documentation to support it.

 

I supplied the link in post #36, they explain their methodology at length, judge it as you wish.

 

[musicman]

The Republican route of slashing education funding and reducing investments in their communities will only exacerbate crime and inequality.

As we've seen over the past 30 years, increasing funding for education doesn't increase test scores, it only increases the size of the stadia.

[august948]

As we've seen over the past 30 years, increasing funding for education doesn't increase test scores, it only increases the size of the stadia.

 

Now isn't that the truth.

 

[kylejack]

I supplied the link in post #36, they explain their methodology at length, judge it as you wish.

 

 

"Analysis is confined to households with one or more children."

Very convenient, when so many illegal immigrants are young men working and sending money home to their family. Anyway, it makes your statement "70% of the undocumented population of Texas must rely on some form of government assistance" false. It is 69% of the households with one+ child.

[brian0123]

As we've seen over the past 30 years, increasing funding for education doesn't increase test scores, it only increases the size of the stadia.

 

Increasing funding? Texas has been slashing educational funding to the point where school districts are running on fumes.

[luciaphile]

false

 

The website states very clearly that welfare services being mainly designed for families, not single young men, that was the focus of their analysis; so I apologize for carelessly replacing the phrase "households with children" with the word "population" in my second post on the subject. That was indeed unconscionable, though my main point, which I think related to my continual cognitive dissonance with the story told in the media about Texas, was ignored in any case. Your larger point, and I apologize again if there was not one, remains elusive to me though. Since the percentage of documented immigrants (which 40 to 50% of illegal immigrants start out as) living with children is higher, and the percentage of undocumented immigrants living with children much higher, to begin with than that for native adults, the data is kinder - if you are an anti-welfare-type, as many on the forum seem to be - to the native population. Of course the distinction between immigrant and native-born population impacts obviously is becoming meaningless anyway and so hopefully will be abandoned.

 

So can we afford, in 2013, to lose the sturdy myth that the typical immigrant remains a "single young man sending money home to his family"? The progressive, surely pro-unlimited immigration public radio entity "Marketplace" thinks so:

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/wealth-poverty/who-are-11-million-undocumented-immigrants

 

[musicman]

Increasing funding?

Yes increasing funding.

[kylejack]

Yes increasing funding.

 

While federal spending for the Department of Education has grown a great deal, per student spending as a whole has been decreasing in Texas for a while.

 

http://www.genefortexas.com/docs/lbb_public_ed_email.jpg

[KinkaidAlum]

Where are the studies that show that slashing spending on education increases test scores?