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POST: 401 Franklin Post Office Site Redevelopment


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https://www.facebook.com/posthouston/photos/a.539171546472464/1610017376054537/

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dang!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is double ACL Live in Austin! this sounds awesome...if my best friends band plays there which i am betting they will, come find me!!! haha! so exciting! 

www.blueoctober.com

:)

 

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4 hours ago, downtownian said:

Great news:

Live Nation to open concert venue in Lovett Commercial's Post Houston development

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2021/04/13/live-nation-concert-venue-lovett-post-houston.html

Awesome! This is going fill the void left by Bayou Music Center when Bayou Place is redeveloped.

Edit: just remembered that Live Nation owns Bayou Music Center... maybe the development is further along than we realized?

Edited by phillip_white
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4 hours ago, jermh said:

It looks like this is what ZCA is proposing for Bayou Place. No clue what the status is on the project through, but it's being shared on the new website.  It could have never left the concept stage or is still in play and is now okay to share publicly.  https://zieglercooper.com/projects/bayou-place/ 

Great find!

I like this idea, though the towers could probably be refined.

Edited by Yoda
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23 hours ago, Triton said:

Is it on the roof top?

No. The concert venue is in the northeast corner (purple area in sight plans for level 1 & 2) taking up both levels. This has been in the plans for a while.  It’s been illustrated in past renders and the HBJ article makes note of the fact that negotiations between Lovett and LiveNation have been ongoing since 2018. Lovett has made no secret about Day For Night’s influence on the project, as well as using Printworks London & Kraftwerk Berlin as inspirations for the venue design.

What this news coupled with the ZCA Bayou Place renders suggest to me Bayou Place Music Center’s days are numbered and won’t be part of future redevelopment plans. 

On 8/13/2020 at 1:29 PM, tigereye said:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Downtown-venue-to-open-on-five-acre-rooftop-park-15481162.php

Looking at the renders, the concert venue is in the northeast corner and takes up the first 2 levels. There appears to be balconies overlooking the event floor and stage area. I take it the Skylawn event space will be on the rooftop above the concert venue. 

Not sure where a hotel goes in (unless it’s in the administration building or being built as a separate addition in a later phase. 
POST-Houston-Diagram-300x450.jpg

 

On 1/22/2021 at 5:44 PM, kbates2 said:

XvzSkQO_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&

 

Edited by tigereye
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12 minutes ago, Triton said:

That honestly would be an incredible idea. You can actually take the train from Denver International Airport to downtown's Denver Union Station. 

 

With that being said, what we need to do, is build commuter rail, not light rail, from IAH to Post HTX.. It would be quite cost effective because the rail already exists down the Hardy Toll Road into downtown. You would just have to build an extension towards IAH east of Hardy Toll Road and fortunately there is a lot of open land there. 

That would turn Post HTX into an even bigger destination.

Exactly. This is the perfect, centralized location and using the heavy rail already in place, commuter trains from a Post HTX train shed can easily branch out to many parts of the city. Go west to Cypress and Sugar Land or go North to IAH and Kingwood at the very least (haven’t fully explored all heavy rail in the area yet). This could be a game-changer just by jumpstarting commuter rail plans with a possible cost effective solution. And the real benefit is possibly transforming Post HTX into our own version Grand Central Station. 

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41 minutes ago, tigereye said:

Exactly. This is the perfect, centralized location and using the heavy rail already in place, commuter trains from a Post HTX train shed can easily branch out to many parts of the city. Go west to Cypress and Sugar Land or go North to IAH and Kingwood at the very least (haven’t fully explored all heavy rail in the area yet). This could be a game-changer just by jumpstarting commuter rail plans with a possible cost effective solution. And the real benefit is possibly transforming Post HTX into our own version Grand Central Station. 

This makes so much sense for a direct route to IAH.  I know METRO wants a route that would capture more riders but a direct route from IAH to downtown would be awesome for the convention crowd and for riders wanting an easy route to connect to downtown transit center.  It's already double tracked all the way to IAH and part of it is triple tracked.  

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Adding a train station component would bring things full circle - this was the site of the Southern Pacific station (Houston's dominant passenger railroad at the time) before being torn down for the post office.

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according to what I've found on the internet, Amtrak is supposed to be prioritized over freight. however, the people dispatching and telling which trains get priority are freight operators. 

so what happens is freight actually ends up with priority because there's no real oversight. the line that goes down Hardy is very busy, I could conceive of a lot of people missing flights.

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Sama, where on the internet did you read that?  Where Amtrak owns the lines (NE Corridor), I can see that, but as long as the Freight Lines own the tracks...which is basically all the lines that freight travels on, I cannot see that freight lines would give way to Passenger Lines.   Maybe Amtrak will be building additional lines in some some corridors.  

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1 hour ago, samagon said:

according to what I've found on the internet, Amtrak is supposed to be prioritized over freight. however, the people dispatching and telling which trains get priority are freight operators. 

so what happens is freight actually ends up with priority because there's no real oversight. the line that goes down Hardy is very busy, I could conceive of a lot of people missing flights.

Agree that passenger rail sharing the freight rail lines in the Hardy Corridor would not be a recipe for reliability, but I disagree many people would miss their flights because no one would be taking it in the first place!  Best case scenario is a 45-minute to an hour ride with headways of an hour . . . at best.  Add a bus connection for the vast (99%+) majority of the market that won't live in the immediate downtown area, and it's probably 90 minutes.  Transit to airport works best for employees.

The data below are from 2008, but I assure you little has changed . . . this is pre-Uber.

Top airports for transit ridership (all modes--rail/bus) / Annual transit ridership (per day) / O&D passengers / 

New York JFK / 2.2MM (6,027) / 11.6MM / 19%

Los Angeles LAX / 2.1MM (5,750) / 16.4MM / 13%

San Francisco SFO / 2.1MM (5,750) / 8.9MM / 23%

Las Vegas / 2.0MM (5,480) / 16.3MM / 12%

Atlanta / 1.9MM (5,205) / 13.7MM / 14%

And since the question is bound to come up . . .

Washington Reagan National / 1.2MM (3,288) / 7MM / 17%

See 2020 study at (PDF) Use of Public Transportation by Airport Passengers (researchgate.net)

In the United States, there appears to be limited market for public transportation (rail, bus, and shared-ride vans) at airports. The ceiling on public transportation use in most U.S. cities appears to be about 10% to 15%, even at airports with rail service At most U.S. airports, the primary, potential market for rail service is passengers with trip ends in
the downtown area
(or other geographic areas well served by rail), travelling alone and with little or no baggage, and familiar with the rail service (and schedules). Compared to European and Asian cities, there appear to be a relatively small number of U.S. cities that have the airport user characteristics, the appropriate airport configuration, and the existing or planned rail network that are required to attract a large share (more than 5%) of the airline passenger market.

At least the HOU lines will have a primary demand base of serving neighborhoods, as opposed to commuter rail down the Hardy Toll Road to IAH, which would be a tremendous misuse of money that could be more productively used for other transit solutions that people would actually use.

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41 minutes ago, jgriff said:

I can have an Uber at my front door in less than 10 minutes.  Why would I ever ride a train to the airport?

It's more a matter of providing options for people and a better sense of connectivity. Especially for those from out of town. PostHTX would be great as our new Amtrak Station.

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I think the idea would be for those that can't afford uber and/or want to bypass traffic to the airport? but the best reason for this is so that WE don't ever have to pick up anyone from the airport ever again!!!!!!! I hate doing that haha!!!

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3 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

It's more a matter of providing options for people and a better sense of connectivity. Especially for those from out of town. PostHTX would be great as our new Amtrak Station.

Providing options at any cost?  Travelers do have a transit option . . . do they have to have an option for a train, too?

And why would Harris County consumers be interested in subsidizing (through sales taxes) a small number of visitors from out of town, essentially so that these visitors leaving "feeling" that there is a "better sense of connectivity"?  Seems like a pretty high price to pay for feelings.  Are there not better, more critical uses of such monies?

3 hours ago, gene said:

I think the idea would be for those that can't afford uber and/or want to bypass traffic to the airport? but the best reason for this is so that WE don't ever have to pick up anyone from the airport ever again!!!!!!! I hate doing that haha!!!

You can do that (and METRO is doing that) with an express bus, with much shorter headways due to lower capacity and, more than likely, providing faster transit times and the possibility of multiple terminals downtown.  Aside from that, air travelers as a demographic group are more affluent than the general public and don't really top many lists of groups needing to be subsidized (at least not mine).  If you said to help airport employees, the majority of whom are low-wage service workers, well, then a case could certainly be made for that.  But I'm sure almost all of them would choose a 30-minute express bus operating every 15 minutes than a 45-minute heavy rail train operating every hour.

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3 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

Providing options at any cost?  Travelers do have a transit option . . . do they have to have an option for a train, too?

And why would Harris County consumers be interested in subsidizing (through sales taxes) a small number of visitors from out of town, essentially so that these visitors leaving "feeling" that there is a "better sense of connectivity"?  Seems like a pretty high price to pay for feelings.  Are there not better, more critical uses of such monies?

You can do that (and METRO is doing that) with an express bus, with much shorter headways due to lower capacity and, more than likely, providing faster transit times and the possibility of multiple terminals downtown.  Aside from that, air travelers as a demographic group are more affluent than the general public and don't really top many lists of groups needing to be subsidized (at least not mine).  If you said to help airport employees, the majority of whom are low-wage service workers, well, then a case could certainly be made for that.  But I'm sure almost all of them would choose a 30-minute express bus operating every 15 minutes than a 45-minute heavy rail train operating every hour.

Well yeah that's an option... So what, we should give people limited options? Should we not have a solid terminal to transfer by train from downtown to the airport? Not sure what exactly your argument is. I'm assuming you already know how something like that would be funded. In either case we are the 4th largest city in the nation. This isn't about a "feeling." Connecting downtown to an airport is just common sense. Should we not have some level of appeal to visitors? Things like this have existed before in this city. Older people talk about the interurban from DT to Galveston all the time. No Uber required. 

Edited by j_cuevas713
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A heavy rail line from Galveston to Woodlands/Conroe would be totally viable.
Galveston/Clear Lake/Hobby/Downtown(Post HTX)/IAH/Woodlands/Conroe...Dallas maybe?

I wish it were but I’m not convinced that just a Downtown-IAH line would work.

A transit hub with N/S & E/W lines at Post HTX would be amazing, though. 

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52 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Well yeah that's an option... So what, we should give people limited options? Should we not have a solid terminal to transfer by train from downtown to the airport? Not sure what exactly your argument is. I'm assuming you already know how something like that would be funded. In either case we are the 4th largest city in the nation. This isn't about a "feeling." Connecting downtown to an airport is just common sense. Should we not have some level of appeal to visitors? Things like this have existed before in this city. Older people talk about the interurban from DT to Galveston all the time. No Uber required. 

Well it sure seems to be a "feeling" . . . it's simple "common sense," you say . . . you seem to imply that the 4th largest city in the nation=rail transit to the airport must be an option is some sort of natural law, regardless of actual demand, travel behavior, or, dare I say, even the lowest standards of financial feasibility?  I do agree that your view is widely enough held, but I think most in the industry would say it's a "common misconception" rather than "common sense."

The primary domestic airport for the largest city in the nation (LGA) has had no rail transit in its 82-year history.  Granted, it might yet get such a link soon, but take that under consideration.

My argument is straightforward . . . it makes no sense whatsoever on the basis of demand or financial feasibility . . . it only makes sense as some sort of vanity project or some warped idea of what constitutes a "real city."  And yes, I do know how these are funded.  METRO's 2020 revenues were $945MM in 2020 before the pandemic, $775MM of which were sales tax receipts.  (Fares were less than one-tenth this, at $75MM.)  These collections are at the MAXIMUM RATE allowed by the State of Texas.  What of METRO's current operations do you propose to curtail to run this vanity "See, My City Is a Real City" train?  (And before you say it doesn't need to be METRO . . . true . . . but there isn't room for any other agency to charge a sales tax as Harris County is at the maximum rate, so the same argument remains.)

If actual demand and either financial feasibility (or, better said in the case of transit, the best use of limited financial resources) is not a criterion by which you judge major investments, then I don't know what to say.

In any case, we will probably see soon enough the effect of a train on the "appeal to visitors" . . . do you expect HOU to become wildly more popular than IAH as a result of the light rail extension?   

May I suggest this as a worthwhile addition to your library: TRAINS, BUSES, PEOPLE, written by a local, professional transportation planner, and a former METRO board member.

13 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

A heavy rail line from Galveston to Woodlands/Conroe would be totally viable.
Galveston/Clear Lake/Hobby/Downtown(Post HTX)/IAH/Woodlands/Conroe...Dallas maybe?

I wish it were but I’m not convinced that just a Downtown-IAH line would work.

A transit hub with N/S & E/W lines at Post HTX would be amazing, though. 

Yes, true commuter rail would be a much better investment.

Edited by mattyt36
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3 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

Well it sure seems to be a "feeling" . . . you seem to imply that the 4th largest city in the nation=rail transit to the airport must be an option is some sort of natural law, regardless of actual demand, travel behavior, or, dare I say, even the lowest standards of financial feasibility?  The primary domestic airport for the largest city in the nation (LGA) has had no rail transit in its 82-year history.  Granted, it might yet get such a link soon, but take that under consideration.

My argument is straightforward . . . it makes no sense whatsoever on the basis of demand or financial feasibility . . . it only makes sense as some sort of vanity project or some warped idea of what constitutes a "real city."  And yes, I do know how these are funded.  METRO's 2020 revenues were $945MM in 2020 before the pandemic, $775MM of which were sales tax receipts.  (Fares were less than one-tenth this, at $75MM.)  These collections are at the MAXIMUM RATE allowed by the State of Texas.  What of METRO's current operations do you propose to curtail to run this vanity "See, My City Is a Real City" train?  (And before you say it doesn't need to be METRO . . . true . . . but there isn't room for any other agency to charge a sales tax as Harris County is at the maximum rate, so the same argument remains.)

If actual demand and either financial feasibility (or, better said in the case of transit, the best use of limited financial resources) is not a criterion by which you judge major investments, then I don't know what to say.

May I suggest this as a worthwhile addition to your library: TRAINS, BUSES, PEOPLE, written by a local, professional transportation planner, and a former METRO board member.

Yes, true commuter rail would be a much better investment.

Ok you seem to be assuming a lot about what I said without asking me much. This doesn't have to fall on Metro, as you just answered yourself. I also said nothing about a real city needing a train, and I'm not implying anything. You're def assuming though. All I said was that utilizing POST HTX as Amtrak's next station would be a neat partnership. Not to mention it was the original site of Union Pacific at one point. Yeah trust me I've already seen Metro's budget shortfall because of the pandemic. Not sure what that has to do with anything or the point I made. If the demand is there, it will happen. That goes for any investment. You want me to predict the future or something? 

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1 minute ago, j_cuevas713 said:

This doesn't have to fall on Metro, as you just answered yourself.

No, but, as described, the funding pie is fixed . . .

2 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I also said nothing about a real city needing a train, and I'm not implying anything. You're def assuming though. All I said was that utilizing POST HTX as Amtrak's next station would be a neat partnership. 

Well that's a bit revisionist . . . you said it's simple "common sense" to connect an airport to downtown and that a train was needed to have "some level of appeal to visitors." 

5 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Yeah trust me I've already seen Metro's budget shortfall because of the pandemic. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . 

6 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

 If the demand is there, it will happen. That goes for any investment. You want me to predict the future or something? 

Well glad to hear you saying (implying?) that demand is a worthwhile consideration.  Sources shared above about how demand for these things is commonly grossly overestimated.

You don't have to predict the future, but considering the experience of other cities and other key factors certainly can be used as a reasonably reliable predictive tool, at least in the short term.

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5 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

No, but, as described, the funding pie is fixed . . .

Well that's a bit revisionist . . . you said it's simple "common sense" to connect an airport to downtown and that a train was needed to have "some level of appeal to visitors." 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . 

Well glad to hear you saying (implying?) that demand is a worthwhile consideration.  Sources shared above about how demand for these things is commonly grossly overestimated.

You don't have to predict the future, but considering the experience of other cities and other key factors certainly can be used as a reasonably reliable predictive tool, at least in the short term.

Are you done?

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14 hours ago, mattyt36 said:

And why would Harris County consumers be interested in subsidizing (through sales taxes) a small number of visitors from out of town, essentially so that these visitors leaving "feeling" that there is a "better sense of connectivity"?  Seems like a pretty high price to pay for feelings.  Are there not better, more critical uses of such monies?

moo, just raise the hotel occupancy tax to pay for it.

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5 hours ago, monarch said:

EzEVodaVUAAJWZF?format=jpg&name=large

^^^ the plants/trees are starting to settle in upon the rooftop at POSTHTX...

 

Hey, can I share this picture on my social media page, @livelihood and @livelihoodprojects

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/15/2021 at 8:33 PM, mkultra25 said:

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

20180830.jpg

If not mistaken the old Forum was a couple blocks away that was also torn down around the same time period. It was in the vicinity of what is now Hobby Center and the Bayou Place. What historical buildings Houston has torn down over the years.

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wowsa...loving the progress!!!!!!!!!!!! and the photos!

i for one am so excited about this place and everything it will offer! 

 

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Posted (edited)

Anyone else kind of nervous for this? I for one am super excited, the only thing kind of holding it back a bit is how I feel this is like the ultimate litmus test for downtown. I think the views will undoubtedly garner a ton of wedding/corporate/special event money, I just hope the rest of the development like the food, music, and retail (assuming there is some kind of retail whether its a food market or clothes or whatnot) does well.

I mean, there's no way this portion of the development could be a loser: https://twitter.com/JRDNLTHMS/status/1390451008367640576?s=20

E0vfywvXsAI8ZfF?format=jpg&name=small

 

Edited by X.R.
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My worry is that this is not the easiest walk from most places in downtown, it doesn't have a lot of trees or other developments super close to it.  Still, I think that it is looking like such a draw that it may not matter.

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Honestly (and unfortunately?), most people would be driving here. So I'm sure as long as there's some kind of parking structure/ lot I think it'll be a big draw. 

Personally, I look forward to when they improve the Buffalo Bayou east trail to reach here to we can bike there! 

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my wife loves driving to farmers markets, we live in East End, and she'll make me go to places harder to get to than this, and I can believe that the view will be attractive for her.

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I'm also hoping they host some just massive outdoor markets here. Maybe starting in the plaza, using the front parking on the western side, and wrapping around back to the loading docks.

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  • Triton changed the title to POST: 401 Franklin Post Office Site Redevelopment

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