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Market Square Tower: 40-Story High-Rise At 777 Preston St.


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Your taste (or lack of it) is absolutely a personal issue. If you are entitled to reiterate your opinion, then so am I. I have a passion for quality architecture, I say this tower is very nice. You called yourself a grinch. I'm not making fun of you, I'm only agreeing with you.

Classic. It's come to the "T" word. Architecture is far too subjective. Why not counter my statements with some of the positive features of the building?

Edit: you know, rather than imply I lack taste.

Edited by Montrose1100
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I don't love the architecture but I do love the population increase it will provide. This one, along with Hines' proposal, will give that side of downtown a pretty good boost to go along with Rice Lofts, Hogg Palace, Bayou Lofts, Franklin Lofts, Hermann Lofts, etc...

 

Not every building can be a beauty. Heck, 70% of Manhattan's skyline sucks but the critical mass these filler buildings provide is what brings the streets alive.

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Not every building can be a beauty. Heck, 70% of Manhattan's skyline sucks but the critical mass these filler buildings provide is what brings the streets alive.

 

The message I'm getting though is that a lot of people would prefer the minimalism of most Manhattan buildings to an art-deco cream-sicle like this.

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I'm probably less worked up about it than you think, but you're just the latest in a long parade of people on here who have tried to stifle conversation with this "What're ya gonna do about it?" line. The worst of them answered every opinion with a professorial lecture on neo-liberal market economics, and you aren't nearly as bad as that. But I do think that a vigorous and healthy climate of architectural discussion and opinion ultimately does affect what developers do, otherwise they wouldn't keep doing things here that would never fly in cities that care more about the interaction between public spaces (like Market Square) and the built environment.

The way this building is site planned, you'd think Market Square was on the Louisiana Street side rather than the Milam side. No developer in his right mind would try disrespecting an important square like that in Boston or New York or even Philadelphia; the public outcry would make his life miserable. And for good reason. Quality spaces are important to the public, and the public needs to guard them carefully.

Perhaps it is unfortunate that half of the public are dumber than the average American. And around here, half of them are from places that start with "wood" or end with "land" or contain the words "master planned". Some even think the Galleria is downtown.

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Here's the rendering they have on the front of the preliminary brochure. Haven't seen it anywhere else so far...

OPPbrochureRendering.jpg

Comparing this to the new tower proposed for market square...

I hope in the next rendering we can see a little more detail, because this pic of OPP, I can tel it is brick

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The message I'm getting though is that a lot of people would prefer the minimalism of most Manhattan buildings to an art-deco cream-sicle like this.

Even with all that said... This building needs to be brick. If it isn't.... It will look like Miami next to market square!

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Was reminded by a fellow HAIFer on facebook that we're complaining about a 40-story RESIDENTIAL highrise in DOWNTOWN Houston. When has this ever happened? Let's try, NEVER.

 

Not that we can't be picky, but we've got a humongous missing plane that vanished in the most technologically advanced time in history, and we're distracted by the details of the tallest residential building in downtown...DOWNTOWN's history! ;) Just be happy :)

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Sure this could be the crown jewel of Destin.

 

:lol:  Love it.

 

 

 

To me the tower has an odd 1980s post-modern vibe going.  The semi-deco roofline, and especially the base with the arched entryways (see Bank of America, Wortham Theater and Williams Tower for comparison).

 

 

 

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I'm probably less worked up about it than you think, but you're just the latest in a long parade of people on here who have tried to stifle conversation with this "What're ya gonna do about it?" line. The worst of them answered every opinion with a professorial lecture on neo-liberal market economics, and you aren't nearly as bad as that. But I do think that a vigorous and healthy climate of architectural discussion and opinion ultimately does affect what developers do, otherwise they wouldn't keep doing things here that would never fly in cities that care more about the interaction between public spaces (like Market Square) and the built environment. 

 

The way this building is site planned, you'd think Market Square was on the Louisiana Street side rather than the Milam side. No developer in his right mind would try disrespecting an important square like that in Boston or New York or even Philadelphia; the public outcry would make his life miserable. And for good reason. Quality spaces are important to the public, and the public needs to guard them carefully.

 

Worst of them checking in. Hi guys. 

 

There are folks that think aesthetic perfection is worth sacrificing if it means getting the thing built or refurbished and leased out by people who do not share tastes with people on architecture boards.  Or maybe there is another architecture forum that is unanimous in its praise for this thing that the developers are reading, who knows. Still can't understand the hospital at I-10 and Gessner, that thing is weird. 

 

From my point of view, I think the worst of folks go out of their way to one-up the previous posters' hyperbole over a project for its imperfections when all any of them have at stake is their idea of personal visual pleasure that they will occasionally experience when the only actual real world alternatives were a run down dump or an empty lot. Expressing that opinion seems to do the opposite of stifle discussion, and I would not expect or hope for another result.

 

You have an opinion, good for you. Someone else had an opinion and an organization capable of building a 40 story residential skyscraper in downtown Houston. 

 

The Market Square garage is huge and full. How would a new design "respect" the park right next to a big slab of gray (to say nothing of the bank drive-thru, a surface parking lot and the Hotel Icon's parking garage that fill out the visual field from Market Square). The park has cool old stuff on two of four sides currently, I call this a net improvement. Even if something really fantastic were possible on the narrow side, it would be like wearing your finest tuxedo to your wedding while the best man wears his "I'm with stupid" tank top. The disrespect is already there and predates Market Square being anything but a bum camp. I can't really tell what the Milam or Louisiana sides would look like from what has been posted. 

 

But to your point about other cities, you can actually go on Google street view and find big chunks of architectural nothing (though not as bad as the garage) and oddly situated and stylistically dated buildings around places like Madison Square and Union Square in NY, Washington Square in Philly and Christopher Columbus Waterfront park in Boston. 

 

The disagreement between my point of view and yours is that you see the development of private property as inherently of public interest. To the extent you want to influence opinion on what the end results should be, I have no problem with that, but to the extent those efforts extend in to restrictions with the force of law, I don't like the power that gives to politicians. 

 

But by all means, get out there and argue for (or heaven forbid actually sell) your ideas and designs. It takes all kinds. 

Edited by Nate99
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Was reminded by a fellow HAIFer on facebook that we're complaining about a 40-story RESIDENTIAL highrise in DOWNTOWN Houston. When has this ever happened? Let's try, NEVER.

 

Not that we can't be picky, but we've got a humongous missing plane that vanished in the most technologically advanced time in history, and we're distracted by the details of the tallest residential building in downtown...DOWNTOWN's history! ;) Just be happy :)

 

on top of the fact that these complaints are stemming from what is clearly a very BASIC and PRELIMINARY rendering that lacks any sort of detail whatsoever. people making definitve statements about the look of this building are being a little ridiculous.

 

did we learn nothing from last week's episode in Cameron's 8-story downtown thread?

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Worst of them checking in. Hi guys.

There are folks that think aesthetic perfection is worth sacrificing if it means getting the thing built or refurbished and leased out by people who do not share tastes with people on architecture boards. Or maybe there is another architecture forum that is unanimous in its praise for this thing that the developers are reading, who knows. Still can't understand the hospital at I-10 and Gessner, that thing is weird.

From my point of view, I think the worst of folks go out of their way to one-up the previous posters' hyperbole over a project for its imperfections when all any of them have at stake is their idea of personal visual pleasure that they will occasionally experience when the only actual real world alternatives were a run down dump or an empty lot. Expressing that opinion seems to do the opposite of stifle discussion, and I would not expect or hope for another result.

You have an opinion, good for you. Someone else had an opinion and an organization capable of building a 40 story residential skyscraper in downtown Houston.

The Market Square garage is huge and full. How would a new design "respect" the park right next to a big slab of gray (to say nothing of the bank drive-thru, a surface parking lot and the Hotel Icon's parking garage that fill out the visual field from Market Square). The park has cool old stuff on two of four sides currently, I call this a net improvement. Even if something really fantastic were possible on the narrow side, it would be like wearing your finest tuxedo to your wedding while the best man wears his "I'm with stupid" tank top. The disrespect is already there and predates Market Square being anything but a bum camp. I can't really tell what the Milam or Louisiana sides would look like from what has been posted.

But to your point about other cities, you can actually go on Google street view and find big chunks of architectural nothing (though not as bad as the garage) and oddly situated and stylistically dated buildings around places like Madison Square and Union Square in NY, Washington Square in Philly and Christopher Columbus Waterfront park in Boston.

The disagreement between my point of view and yours is that you see the development of private property as inherently of public interest. To the extent you want to influence opinion on what the end results should be, I have no problem with that, but to the extent those efforts extend in to restrictions with the force of law, I don't like the power that gives to politicians.

But by all means, get out there and argue for (or heaven forbid actually sell) your ideas and designs. It takes all kinds.

Good grief man, I wasn't talking about you. It was a poster who was on here years ago called TheNiche.

I'm not asking for "aesthetic perfection." I'm asking that the building be placed against the square rather than against Louisiana, and that it have something more than a covered driveway on that side, preferably retail. Yes, it will absolutely help the square to have this - I do not follow your logic that because the garage looks ugly, the other half of the block should also ignore the square.. And it should not make much of a difference in terms of its chances of getting built.

Can the developer defenders admit that it really wouldn't be a hassle to shift the building against the square, and only a slight hassle to put retail at the bottom on that side?

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Good grief man, I wasn't talking about you. It was a poster who was on here years ago called TheNiche.

I'm not asking for "aesthetic perfection." I'm asking that the building be placed against the square rather than against Louisiana, and that it have something more than a covered driveway on that side, preferably retail. Yes, it will absolutely help the square to have this - I do not follow your logic that because the garage looks ugly, the other half of the block should also ignore the square.. And it should not make much of a difference in terms of its chances of getting built.

Can the developer defenders admit that it really wouldn't be a hassle to shift the building against the square, and only a slight hassle to put retail at the bottom on that side?

 

I remember TheNiche, I liked his ideas and agree with his POV usually, so I'll argue it, probably poorly, in his absence. Adjunct professor, at best. 

 

I don't think a 40 story tower ignores anything around it, but that's just me. My point was more that there's no visual cohesion around the park and won't be unless you tear down something huge that is already far more bland and intrusive than this may or may not end up being.  I'm betting that the developers want to make it as good as they can and leverage the neighborhood around it, but their version of good might differ from yours or mine. 

 

But I really can not tell what will be placed on Milam vs. Louisiana in the pic. You can see the garage entrance off of Preston towards Milam, but that does not preclude some retail or something else actually facing Milam. Louisiana could just be windows. Maybe I missed something with more detail.  A well done covered drive that accesses the main lobby with a pool deck above it facing the park could be really nice too, I'd think. No need to design buildings in Houston to pretend that we don't need cars. 

Edited by Nate99
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Perhaps it is unfortunate that half of the public are dumber than the average American. And around here, half of them are from places that start with "wood" or end with "land" or contain the words "master planned". Some even think the Galleria is downtown.

 

Actually that's the way a normal distribution works. If we assume intelligence to be measurable and plotted on a bell curve then exactly half of the population would be to the left of center (dumber, as you say) and the other half would be to the right of center or smarter.

 

However I seriously doubt there is any correlation between the name of one's neighborhood "starting with "wood" or ending with "land" or containing the words "master planned"" and the measure of one's intelligence. Particularly considering the fluidity with which many people change neighborhoods throughout their lives, i.e. I used to live in the city of Houston now I live in Cinco Ranch. Therefore I am now less intelligent than I was or was significantly below the mean when I lived in the city and this lack of intelligence caused my move to the "master planned" community.

 

But what do I know? I live in "the burbs" so I am therefore ignorant and awful and have no valid opinions. At least as far as many on this site are concerned.

 

I know I'm off track and shouldn't bother but some times I like to rant also. What can ya do?

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Actually that's the way a normal distribution works. If we assume intelligence to be measurable and plotted on a bell curve then exactly half of the population would be to the left of center (dumber, as you say) and the other half would be to the right of center or smarter.

However I seriously doubt there is any correlation between the name of one's neighborhood "starting with "wood" or ending with "land" or containing the words "master planned"" and the measure of one's intelligence. Particularly considering the fluidity with which many people change neighborhoods throughout their lives, i.e. I used to live in the city of Houston now I live in Cinco Ranch. Therefore I am now less intelligent than I was or was significantly below the mean when I lived in the city and this lack of intelligence caused my move to the "master planned" community.

But what do I know? I live in "the burbs" so I am therefore ignorant and awful and have no valid opinions. At least as far as many on this site are concerned.

I know I'm off track and shouldn't bother but some times I like to rant also. What can ya do?

Relax. I was being facetious. Mostly.

The point I was attempting to make is that those in/from the outer reaches of a metro area tend to know lesd about inner city issues, planning, etc.

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I remember TheNiche, I liked his ideas and agree with his POV usually, so I'll argue it, probably poorly, in his absence. Adjunct professor, at best.

I don't think a 40 story tower ignores anything around it, but that's just me. My point was more that there's no visual cohesion around the park and won't be unless you tear down something huge that is already far more bland and intrusive than this may or may not end up being. I'm betting that the developers want to make it as good as they can and leverage the neighborhood around it, but their version of good might differ from yours or mine.

But I really can not tell what will be placed on Milam vs. Louisiana in the pic. You can see the garage entrance off of Preston towards Milam, but that does not preclude some retail or something else actually facing Milam. Louisiana could just be windows. Maybe I missed something with more detail. A well done covered drive that accesses the main lobby with a pool deck above it facing the park could be really nice too, I'd think. No need to design buildings in Houston to pretend that we don't need cars.

You don't think a 40 story building ignores anything around it simply by virtue of its being 40 stories? I don't get it.

I don't know about visual cohesion, I tend to like visual diversity. But what I'm interested in more than how anything looks is having activity on as much of the square's frontage as possible. It's a general rule of thumb that the more activity you put around a square, the more successful the square will be, and the simplest way to do that is retail.

So you are saying that maybe the auto entrance in the rendering doesn't go to the garage? That would seem strange, but I guess I hope you're right.

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So you are saying that maybe the auto entrance in the rendering doesn't go to the garage? That would seem strange, but I guess I hope you're right.

 

It looks like it would go in to the garage, but I was thinking it might have a ramp right off the street going up, and something would still fit on the ground floor closer to the garage itself. The garage is designed that way now with all of the gates, ticket machines and actual parking spots up on the second floor (or maybe higher). I'm not sure if it would even be feasible to connect in at the ground level.  They'll have to reconfigure it in any case with a tie in from Preston through the new building. 

 

Alternatively, it could go straight in to garage at street level with a well done porte cochere/lobby tie in under the deck above. Not as interactive with the square as all retail, but still pretty nice to look at and would give a cool view/atmosphere for the residents to step out in to. In any case, maybe this building would nudge someone in to putting something viable in the old Kim Son space that has been vacant for so long. 

 

Big towers change the look of neighborhoods around them, that's why I think "ignore" is the wrong word. It could certainly encourage/discourage more activity around the park depending on how you manage the street level stuff. 

Edited by Nate99
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No need to design buildings in Houston to pretend that we don't need cars. 

 

Do you really think this is a danger in Houston - pretending that we don't need cars?  Do you consider it a threat to the reign of the car in Houston if Market Square is developed as a real public square, oriented towards people rather than cars?

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This is ridiculous, the building itself is not bad. Simple design but classic look. What is bad is that most planners ignore gems like market square and the opportunity they have in a wonderful open space.

 

They may be taking more of the square's positive attributes for themselves, but I don't think they are ignoring it. That pool/party deck overlooking the square would be a really nice amenity for residents that takes advantage of the park/square.

 

They'll be (literally) a crapload more users of the dog park, that's for sure.  

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They may be taking more of the square's positive attributes for themselves, but I don't think they are ignoring it. That pool/party deck overlooking the square would be a really nice amenity for residents that takes advantage of the park/square.

 

They'll be (literally) a crapload more users of the dog park, that's for sure.  

 

Usually the term "ignore" in planning discussions means it doesn't make any attempt to add to or enhance the public space. Hines Market Square enhances the public space by putting lively retail on its corner. In the case of this building, having a pool where residents can look down and enjoy the square that their building otherwise deadens does not enhance the space. It ignores it.

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Do you really think this is a danger in Houston - pretending that we don't need cars?  Do you consider it a threat to the reign of the car in Houston if Market Square is developed as a real public square, oriented towards people rather than cars?

 

No, I just think it would be much harder to find tenants for the building and therefore a harder sell. An unnecessary design risk for those with money on the line.  

 

I don't think you can jump to a more purely pedestrian oriented place prior to filling in with options that are more in line with what most people are used to dealing with right now. Maybe after this and the Hines residential building are successful, someone can build up something more in line with what you are describing on the block between the square and the Chronicle building. 

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Usually the term "ignore" in planning discussions means it doesn't make any attempt to add to or enhance the public space. Hines Market Square enhances the public space by putting lively retail on its corner. In the case of this building, having a pool where residents can look down and enjoy the square that their building otherwise deadens does not enhance the space. It ignores it.

 

Fair enough, I guess I see the buildings as being there to look at without much other interaction, so whether there is a bank or a coffee shop there it doesn't change what the area would do for me personally. I don't see any obligation for private property owners to enhance public space except to the extent they want to make it enticing for people to visit their retail tenants, and if they don't want retail tenants for whatever reason, that's their call to make. If that was their intention, I would think that they could find a cheaper spot to build it, presuming the market actually thinks that the square could be best utilized in the manner you envision. 

 

It cuts both ways though, there could be retail tenants there that made the park worse from any number of perspectives. Not that they'd want to put a methadone clinic down there, but they might if the market tanked. 

 

OPP has space for street level retail facing Discovery Green sitting empty. 

Edited by Nate99
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Htown man beat me too it. I meant exactly what he explained.

As to building things and then after all is constructed, going in with amenities is kinda why downtown is not as lively ass we want it.

You absolutely do not build and alter with ever single development. You build with amenities as you go along.

No one is talking about flooding the area with stores, but sheesh, they could build with convertible designs. The design doesn't have to support stores right now, but at least it could look like it.

Why not save money and build more easily convertible designs? I doubt that all these buildings will poke hoes in their facade once the activity picks up. That's why there are still blank walls around discovery green even thought the area is more active than 10-15 years ago

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You absolutely do not build and alter with ever single development. You build with amenities as you go along.

No one is talking about flooding the area with stores, but sheesh, they could build with convertible designs. The design doesn't have to support stores right now, but at least it could look like it.

Why not save money and build more easily convertible designs? I doubt that all these buildings will poke hoes in their facade once the activity picks up. That's why there are still blank walls around discovery green even thought the area is more active than 10-15 years ago

 

You lay out a good vision for what you hope to see, and I don't have a problem with that, but it seems like the people with the money don't agree with you. They view the trade offs in their designs and make choices. If you want to raise possibilities in the discourse of such things, that's all well and good, I just doubt that you're bringing up anything that the developers have not already considered thoroughly in their process. 

 

We just made the same point about OPP and empty space around DG. Finger is losing money because he planned for more street level retail than needed on that one and it still hasn't attracted anyone. 

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