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Market Square Tower: 40-Story High-Rise for Downtown

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On 6/8/2016 at 10:08 AM, HoustonMidtown said:

 

I think that's actually a studio even though the Martha Turner listing says 1BR

 

This is the model unit --- it's a 1BR.

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On June 14, 2016 at 10:53 AM, CrockpotandGravel said:


Please let it be a grocery store.

How big is the largest retail space that they have?

 

Phoencia is a good example of an urban grocery on two stories.  I don't know how many sq get it is.  Would the space in this tower even come close to the size of Phoencia?  And, if not, what are people's opinion as to the "smallest" effective size for an urban grocer?  

 

 

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Smallest is hard to say, but 20,000 square feet is a good size for an urban grocer. Most Trader Joe's are roughly that size I believe.

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On 6/16/2016 at 8:36 AM, Texasota said:

Smallest is hard to say, but 20,000 square feet is a good size for an urban grocer. Most Trader Joe's are roughly that size I believe.

 

You won't find grocers that small, ever, unless they're a specialty grocer or a rinky dink operator in smaller towns (Arlan's Market has a 15,000 square feet grocery store in Navasota...I think they have a meat area but that's about it as far as specialized department go), and I still think it's a hard sell for a Trader Joe's unless major strings were being pulled. H-E-B did open a 12,000 square feet store in downtown San Antonio, but that was the first downtown grocery store in S.A. and I'm not sure they're ready to attempt to replicate the store in the near future. 365 by Whole Foods average 30,000 square feet, and everything else just goes up. "Real" supermarkets tend to go for 40k-60k square feet, even in urban areas. The Randalls in Midtown is a little over 60,000 square feet.

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I actually think that a grocer could work in that amount of square footage. Looking at Dallas for examples, the Whole Foods off McKinney Avenue in Uptown if 44k SF so that probably wouldn't work, but the Trader Joe's off Cole Avenue in the Knox area is only around 15k SF. So Trader Joe's could work here for sure! Or even a smaller grocer that carries more specialty items like Dean & DeLuca or Royal Blue from Austin.

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58 minutes ago, rayjay said:

I actually think that a grocer could work in that amount of square footage. Looking at Dallas for examples, the Whole Foods off McKinney Avenue in Uptown if 44k SF so that probably wouldn't work, but the Trader Joe's off Cole Avenue in the Knox area is only around 15k SF. So Trader Joe's could work here for sure! Or even a smaller grocer that carries more specialty items like Dean & DeLuca or Royal Blue from Austin.

Like I said, if Trader Joe's ends up locating in downtown Houston it would require some serious string-pulling on the part of the developer, because it requires education levels AND high population counts, which I doubt downtown has. If you don't count the population currently incarcerated (believe it or not this will skew demographic counts), then the population count won't work at all given the relatively slim amount of people living there (downtown gets pretty dead on weekends), and if you DO, then the education level (which Trader Joe's looks at) will plummet.

 

If the square feet is small, and it is a grocery store, then maybe I can see Aldi locating there, though.

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9 hours ago, IronTiger said:

Like I said, if Trader Joe's ends up locating in downtown Houston it would require some serious string-pulling on the part of the developer, because it requires education levels AND high population counts, which I doubt downtown has. If you don't count the population currently incarcerated (believe it or not this will skew demographic counts), then the population count won't work at all given the relatively slim amount of people living there (downtown gets pretty dead on weekends), and if you DO, then the education level (which Trader Joe's looks at) will plummet.

 

If the square feet is small, and it is a grocery store, then maybe I can see Aldi locating there, though.

I'd submit that Phoenicia requires a higher education level than Trader Joe's, and it's thriving downtown.

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They have a 19003 square foot space available in one block, and it apparently has  18-22 for ceilings.  We can look to the other side of downtown Houston for an easy example of how a grocer could make that work.  Put in a mezanine over part of the space and voila, you can have 28,000 square feet (which is what the apparently -successful Phoenicia has).

Edited by Houston19514
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5 hours ago, MarathonMan said:

I'd submit that Phoenicia requires a higher education level than Trader Joe's, and it's thriving downtown.

Yeah, but local businesses don't scrutinize location the same way national chains do (that goes for everything). Best case scenario is an ALDI or a specialty gourmet grocer the developer has coaxed in, and even those are doubtful (remember, no confirmation that there WILL be grocery).

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18 hours ago, IronTiger said:

 

You won't find grocers that small, ever, unless they're a specialty grocer or a rinky dink operator in smaller towns (Arlan's Market has a 15,000 square feet grocery store in Navasota...I think they have a meat area but that's about it as far as specialized department go), and I still think it's a hard sell for a Trader Joe's unless major strings were being pulled. H-E-B did open a 12,000 square feet store in downtown San Antonio, but that was the first downtown grocery store in S.A. and I'm not sure they're ready to attempt to replicate the store in the near future. 365 by Whole Foods average 30,000 square feet, and everything else just goes up. "Real" supermarkets tend to go for 40k-60k square feet, even in urban areas. The Randalls in Midtown is a little over 60,000 square feet.

 

Sure you will. HEB does not really build many urban grocery stores, so it's not a great example. You really need to look at denser cities to find better examples, or at grocery stores built 10-20 years ago that are still open and busy (older Whole Foods locations for example. ) Trader Joe's specifically might not be interested in the location, but the size of their stores is totally in line.

 

Locally, Phoenicia is a great example. Does the 28,000 sf include the MKT bar area? I could definitely see one company putting a grocery store in the larger space and using a neighboring space as a quasi-attached bar/restaurant. 

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My go-to store in Boston was Foodie's Urban Market. It's only 8,500 square feet. You obviously couldn't get "everything" you'd want, but it had a small produce section, a nice meat/cheese counter, one organic aisle, and all the basic essentials (just not a ton of choices for things like chips, bread, milk, etc...).  It did a booming lunch business on Washington St. with the working crowd. Something like that would work well in Market Square. Offer something for the lunch crowd, and basic essentials (milk, cheese, bread, toothpaste, iceberg lettuce, etc...) for the local residents. 

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^ Can't wait for the old post office site to be redeveloped. There is so much potential for that plot of land.

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Love, LOVE the idea of bringing more people to live downtown but I'm not liking this building. Too bulky, too beige, too boxy. Reminds me of a modernized version of the unattractive 2016 Main building. At least Hines nearby residential tower will balance things out aesthetically speaking. 

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On 6/26/2016 at 9:16 AM, nativehoustonion said:

Skyscraper.com states 2929 Weslayan is 533 feet tall and Market Square is 510 feet tall.  So it is not the tallest highrise in Houston.   

 

I'm not sure it's even the tallest residential building downtown.  Emporis has Market Square Tower at 498 feet and One Park Place at 501 feet.  (FWIW, Emporis has 2929 Weslayan at only 468 feet.  The Huntingdon still reigns as the tallest residential in Houston, at 503 feet.

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On 6/26/2016 at 11:00 AM, intencity77 said:

Love, LOVE the idea of bringing more people to live downtown but I'm not liking this building. Too bulky, too beige, too boxy. Reminds me of a modernized version of the unattractive 2016 Main building. At least Hines nearby residential tower will balance things out aesthetically speaking. 

I disagree.  It is nothing to shout about,  but I don't think it resembles 2016 main. To me it looks more attractive in person.

 

Aris is a much more attractive building and does fit it better with MS, while at the same time looking more modern,  but I think this building is more safe than unattractive.  Now the embassy suites and the Hampton/homeward suites around Discovery Green,  those are unattractive buildings

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On 6/29/2016 at 7:37 AM, nativehoustonion said:

The World Almanac states 2929 Weslayan 533 feet and the Huntington is 503 feet.  I think Emporis has the correct facts.  

Skycities notes 2929 Weslayan at 533 feet.  Urbannizer should the true height.

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54 minutes ago, adr said:

Street-level detail on Congress St.  

27945148461_f73edde62f_b.jpg

 

Note the entry arches they have framed out.

27409012123_76656bf037_b.jpg

 

Thanks for these.  I really like what they have done here.  As a pedestrian walking passed on the sidewalk, the building is going to feel "consistent with" other market square buildings.  The lower couple of floors of the building seem "grounded" in a prior era to me,. Good to see in the historic area.

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If we had made more of an effort to maintain more of the older crop of buildings maybe this one would have been forced to be more ornate.  Kind of like the hotel Monteleone reno.

 

Still mad at you Lancaster. 

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10 minutes ago, HoustonIsHome said:

If we had made more of an effort to maintain more of the older crop of buildings maybe this one would have been forced to be more ornate.  Kind of like the hotel Monteleone reno.

 

Still mad at you Lancaster. 

If we had mad more of an effort, this land would have had something on it and this building may not have been built at all, no?

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39 minutes ago, UtterlyUrban said:

If we had mad more of an effort, this land would have had something on it and this building may not have been built at all, no?

That isn't necessarily true. The monteleone was an expansion.  I said maintain the older crop of buildings,  not never alter them.

 

The Monteleone had outgrown it's space so they built a larger building.  But the stipulations was that what goes up needs to match or surpass what comes down.

 

The goal of historic preservation is not to stifle development. The goal is to maintain character.  You can build a completely new building and come out of it with even more character than before. The Monteleone is a great example of that. 

It may seem counterproductive to maximizing profits by placing limits on development/demolition,  but in the case of Rue Royale the positives outweigh the negatives. That street commands some of the highest retail lease prices.

 

With nothing around to match, or  aspire to surpass then we get embassy suites surrounded by asphalt lots.

 

 

 

 

Edited by HoustonIsHome

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Thats got to rank near the top ten of great edge pools in America! What a view especially when the sun goes down.

 

 

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