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It’d Be Tough, But Houston Could Get Down With Freeways


nolaboy

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I'm sure you would've said the same thing if you lived in Seoul, San Francisco, Paris, Madrid, and New York.

How are you so sure it's unrealistic? What's your basis? I take surface streets in downtown every day. It's not that bad. Not only that but the pierce elevated was shut down for a period, and it wasn't that bad either. I'm at least willing to budge and say ok trench 59. But you want to not even give an inch. The status quo is just fine. In fact widen freeways. Guess what some people have an imagination for the city, not just a sprawling metropolis of cookie cutter suburbs and strip malls which you get to on ten lane highways.

I work almost in Channelview and live by the Galleria. If those said freeways were taken out 610 would be a nightmare. I do have 4 route options... All if them starting with I-10 on the east side.

1. I-10 to Voss.

2. 59 to Fountain view

3. 610 North to San Felipe/I-10 to Voss

4. 610 South to San Felipe/59 to Fountain View

I rarely take route 3 or 4 home unless my navigation says its carmageddon. That being said, I know not all traffic starts at the same point as me, but it always gets congested at Downtown.

So I'm just curious about what you propose as an alternative to the first two routes. (assuming the freeways are turned into boulevards).

I would think 610 would have to be doubled or tripled in size.

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I work almost in Channelview and live by the Galleria. If those said freeways were taken out 610 would be a nightmare. I do have 4 route options... All if them starting with I-10 on the east side.

1. I-10 to Voss.

2. 59 to Fountain view

3. 610 North to San Felipe/I-10 to Voss

4. 610 South to San Felipe/59 to Fountain View

I rarely take route 3 or 4 home unless my navigation says its carmageddon. That being said, I know not all traffic starts at the same point as me, but it always gets congested at Downtown.

So I'm just curious about what you propose as an alternative to the first two routes. (assuming the freeways are turned into boulevards).

I would think 610 would have to be doubled or tripled in size.

You could still use 1 and 2. Just go through downtown boulevards in that portion

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You could still use 1 and 2. Just go through downtown boulevards in that portion

 

So, what is now a 20 minute drive becomes a 1 hour slog through countless traffic signals and waits for trains to go by. Just like the good old days (1960's), but with the added pain of light rail disrupting traffic.

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So, what is now a 20 minute drive becomes a 1 hour slog through countless traffic signals and waits for trains to go by. Just like the good old days (1960's), but with the added pain of light rail disrupting traffic.

It doesn't take 40 minutes to go through downtown.

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It doesn't take 40 minutes to go through downtown.

 

I am curious what is so vibrant and pedestrian friendly about forcing 200,000 vehicles a day onto downtown streets? And air quality? Yeah, those pedestrians will LOVE breathing all of the fumes from those 200,000 vehicles sitting at stoplights waiting to crawl through downtown.

 

BTW, because downtown stoplights are synced for north-south traffic, it can take up to 15 minutes to cross downtown. Adding 200,000 vehicles trying to cross downtown could easily double or triple that number...not to mention the backup slowing down as the freeway converts to boulevard. Look at traffic at Reliant Stadium on gameday

for an example.

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The more I think about it, the more I believe Slick is not actually a resident of Houston per se, he's a bored teenager/early twenty-something living in the suburbs. 

 

I expect Slick to deny most of these, but I'll let the rest of you see if any of these are true or not.

 

You, Slick, live in the suburbs with your parents. The car-centric lifestyle, the fact that all the major stores and restaurants are on freeways, and the general boredom of being a chain and McMansion wasteland (in cynical eyes) has led you to be discontent with highways, fueled by anti-freeway literature run by people who take unusual examples (SF, Portland, Seoul, Milwaukee, Boston, etc.) as the wave of the future. You are also not rich (parents, maybe) and don't come from a third-world country or a world traveler like you've purported in the past.

 

In fact, you've never been to Vancouver or Seoul in your life. Probably not San Francisco, and possibly (though a good possibility) of visiting Manhattan.

 

You overstate your boxing skills here. While I'm not debating you do it for fun and sport in real life, I'm also guessing you wear protective headgear.

 

You do not commute to downtown Houston, but have been there (not on peak hours, though).

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You could still use 1 and 2. Just go through downtown boulevards in that portion

 

It would not be practical. The 18 Wheelers and vehicles traveling west on I-10 would need an alternate as well. So, What is your solution? The Downtown Boulevards would be great for people who work Downtown. I do not, and a majority of the city does not. So my question again, what is your proposed alternative?

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The more I think about it, the more I believe Slick is not actually a resident of Houston per se, he's a bored teenager/early twenty-something living in the suburbs. 

 

I expect Slick to deny most of these, but I'll let the rest of you see if any of these are true or not.

 

You, Slick, live in the suburbs with your parents. The car-centric lifestyle, the fact that all the major stores and restaurants are on freeways, and the general boredom of being a chain and McMansion wasteland (in cynical eyes) has led you to be discontent with highways, fueled by anti-freeway literature run by people who take unusual examples (SF, Portland, Seoul, Milwaukee, Boston, etc.) as the wave of the future. You are also not rich (parents, maybe) and don't come from a third-world country or a world traveler like you've purported in the past.

 

In fact, you've never been to Vancouver or Seoul in your life. Probably not San Francisco, and possibly (though a good possibility) of visiting Manhattan.

 

You overstate your boxing skills here. While I'm not debating you do it for fun and sport in real life, I'm also guessing you wear protective headgear.

 

You do not commute to downtown Houston, but have been there (not on peak hours, though).

 

1. I live about a mile away from downtown, not with my parents, they live on their own in the suburbs. I actually lived in midtown for years until a couple of months ago. It was too loud, couldn't sleep.

2. I did grow up in the suburbs, until I went to college. After I lived in the city, I really enjoyed it. Thus ever since I have chose to stay close to the city center because I lively nature there and like being close to everything. I find suburbs eternally boring.

3. I've been to Vancouver 10 times. I've been to San Francisco 15-20 times, because my dad's sister lives there. I've been to New York about 10 times also because my brother went to school there and worked there for a while. I've never been to Seoul I'll admit that.

4. I am not the best boxer, but I know enough to thrash 99% of the general population, and I can hold my own with most other amateurs, and I do wear headgear because I'm not a professional.

5. I take a local bus downtown every weekday for work.

6. Finally, what's made me discontent is the total lack of progress in Houston in its transit infrastructure. In 2003, they said 5 rail lines would be done. It's 2013, only one will open this year, and two next year. Another turned into a bus, and the critical one is on hold. Also, I just find it boring compared to most cities. It's just my opinion.

 

Happy?

 

PS If you don't believe any of this you Hartmann can confirm. I met him at the frequent flyer meetup a few weeks ago.

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It would not be practical. The 18 Wheelers and vehicles traveling west on I-10 would need an alternate as well. So, What is your solution? The Downtown Boulevards would be great for people who work Downtown. I do not, and a majority of the city does not. So my question again, what is your proposed alternative?

 

It's not practical, because you said so? They could take boulevards or 610.

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Bus to seabus to skytrain. Once you get on the skytrain it's about 20 minutes.

 

That's great if you're only measuring the last leg of the journey.  But you neglected to include that the "bus to seabus" portion of that equation can be anywhere from an additional 50 minutes (idea, peak availability, properly timed weekday) to an additional three hours (Sunday, pretty much anytime).

 

I think once you've visited a few more cities, you won't hold Vanco in such high regard anymore.

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That's great if you're only measuring the last leg of the journey.  But you neglected to include that the "bus to seabus" portion of that equation can be anywhere from an additional 50 minutes (idea, peak availability, properly timed weekday) to an additional three hours (Sunday, pretty much anytime).

 

I think once you've visited a few more cities, you won't hold Vanco in such high regard anymore.

 

You're probably right. Last time I went the bus to Lynn Canyon ran every 30 minutes, and took about 30 minutes to get to the seabus. That was on a Saturday.

 

I think the best systems I've been on are

 

1. Mexico City

2. New York

3. London

4. New Delhi

5. Chicago

 

Just my opinion though.

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It's not practical, because you said so? They could take boulevards or 610.

 

Putting tractor trailers on boulevards is the opposite of mobility.  Most cities try to keep tractor trailers as far away from boulevards and city streets as they can because they are not only a traffic management nightmare, but they wear out the streets much faster.  

 

The whole reason cities build commercial loops like 610 is to keep the trucks from clogging up downtown.  I recommend reading a few books on traffic engineering before making any more suggestions.

 

You can also read traffic engineering studies done by cities, states, and private companies like KLOA.  They're all over the internet and very instructive.

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1. I live about a mile away from downtown, not with my parents, they live on their own in the suburbs. I actually lived in midtown for years until a couple of months ago. It was too loud, couldn't sleep.

2. I did grow up in the suburbs, until I went to college. After I lived in the city, I really enjoyed it. Thus ever since I have chose to stay close to the city center because I lively nature there and like being close to everything. I find suburbs eternally boring.

3. I've been to Vancouver 10 times. I've been to San Francisco 15-20 times, because my dad's sister lives there. I've been to New York about 10 times also because my brother went to school there and worked there for a while. I've never been to Seoul I'll admit that.

4. I am not the best boxer, but I know enough to thrash 99% of the general population, and I can hold my own with most other amateurs, and I do wear headgear because I'm not a professional.

5. I take a local bus downtown every weekday for work.

6. Finally, what's made me discontent is the total lack of progress in Houston in its transit infrastructure. In 2003, they said 5 rail lines would be done. It's 2013, only one will open this year, and two next year. Another turned into a bus, and the critical one is on hold. Also, I just find it boring compared to most cities. It's just my opinion.

 

Happy?

 

PS If you don't believe any of this you Hartmann can confirm. I met him at the frequent flyer meetup a few weeks ago.

 

You've demonstrated a few times that you are a liar, so I find some of your claims hard to believe, especially your claim of going to Vancouver nearly a dozen times. If you really did go to college, you obviously have never taken on classes on urban traffic, nor have even read books on traffic and urban planning in the library there. The "total lack of progress in Houston in its transit infrastructure" is a laughable and patently untrue claim. The rebuilding of Interstate 10, US-59, improvements to 288, and others I've undoubtedly missed will be dismissed by you as not relating to light rail. The first light rail line wasn't built until 2004, and still fell short of ridership predicted. Naturally, there were some delays in getting other lines operational. Before you start blaming politicians, a lot of opposition to light rail came from your fellow Houston citizens.

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You've demonstrated a few times that you are a liar, so I find some of your claims hard to believe, especially your claim of going to Vancouver nearly a dozen times. If you really did go to college, you obviously have never taken on classes on urban traffic, nor have even read books on traffic and urban planning in the library there. The "total lack of progress in Houston in its transit infrastructure" is a laughable and patently untrue claim. The rebuilding of Interstate 10, US-59, improvements to 288, and others I've undoubtedly missed will be dismissed by you as not relating to light rail. The first light rail line wasn't built until 2004, and still fell short of ridership predicted. Naturally, there were some delays in getting other lines operational. Before you start blaming politicians, a lot of opposition to light rail came from your fellow Houston citizens.

 

I went to Vancouver in 1986, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012 (twice), 2013, and am planning to go back next year. Do you need any other information Sherlock? I have family there and there have been a lot of weddings recently. Also I enjoy visiting during non-wedding times as well. In fact I'm going back again next summer for another wedding.

 

I should have reworded my claims to talk about public transit, as I will admit, a lot of freeway construction has taken place. And you are right, fellow citizens are to blame for the 1983 referendum, and Afton Oaks residents for stalling the university line. But Bob Lanier, John Culberson, and Tom DeLay have had a significant hand in all of this as well.

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It's not practical, because you said so? They could take boulevards or 610.

 

Look Slick, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you've lost it. I asked you TWICE about alternatives to a valid question I had about your proposal/idea/whatever, and you have ignored it. It's not practical BECAUSE it is NOT practical to divert 3 freeways into boulevards that have large amounts of traffic not only traveling to Downtown as a destination, but passing through with commerce or commuting. Simply halting the freeways to multiple lights is not a solution. Neither is 'just' using 610.

 

So, since I will get nothing from you, I guess this a rhetorical post and kind of pointless. As you were.

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Look Slick, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you've lost it. I asked you TWICE about alternatives to a valid question I had about your proposal/idea/whatever, and you have ignored it. It's not practical BECAUSE it is NOT practical to divert 3 freeways into boulevards that have large amounts of traffic not only traveling to Downtown as a destination, but passing through with commerce or commuting. Simply halting the freeways to multiple lights is not a solution. Neither is 'just' using 610.

 

So, since I will get nothing from you, I guess this a rhetorical post and kind of pointless. As you were.

 

What's your solution? Do nothing? At the least I would like to see the pierce elevated removed and/or be made into a pedestrian walkway such as the high line, and have traffic diverted to 59. It is the biggest barrier of the three freeways that cut downtown.

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What's your solution?

 

I'll make a dozen threads about the same topic in multiple subforums and igonore questions about my outlandish proposal and also answer questions with questions. Then, I might just get into a lengthy debate with redscare with will result in absolutely nothing.

 

I don't think i've ever hit the ignore button on anyone on here before, but here goes.

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I went to Vancouver in 1986, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2011, 2012 (twice), 2013, and am planning to go back next year. Do you need any other information Sherlock? I have family there and there have been a lot of weddings recently. Also I enjoy visiting during non-wedding times as well. In fact I'm going back again next summer for another wedding.

No need for name calling. Also, in 1986 you were probably under the age of 4, at best.

What's your solution? Do nothing? At the least I would like to see the pierce elevated removed and/or be made into a pedestrian walkway such as the high line, and have traffic diverted to 59.

I'm not even going to touch this one. Clearly someone with a frighteningly loose grip on traffic reality cannot be debated with.

If you really did go to college, you obviously have never taken on classes on urban traffic, nor have even read books on traffic and urban planning in the library there

No response to this one I see. Here's another guess. You not only live in the suburbs, but also go to high school. You aren't stupid and do relatively well in high school but your cluelessness and generally being naïve about freeways suggest otherwise. You are also a fan of SimCity.

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No need for name calling. Also, in 1986 you were probably under the age of 4, at best.

I'm not even going to touch this one. Clearly someone with a frighteningly loose grip on traffic reality cannot be debated with.

No response to this one I see. Here's another guess. You not only live in the suburbs, but also go to high school. You aren't stupid and do relatively well in high school but your cluelessness and generally being naïve about freeways suggest otherwise. You are also a fan of SimCity.

 

Yes I was 2 in 1986, but I threw it in there.

 

Again, I do not live in the suburbs, I live a mile from downtown and work downtown. I do not go to high school, in fact I graduated university six years ago. I've never touched sim city.

 

I'm not sure what else you want. Like I said you can ask Hartmann I met him a few weeks ago at the frequent flyer meetup.

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Our very own subdude had a post on the pierce elevated.

 

"Destroy it - it's an eyesore - and build out the rest of the Buffalo Bayou Plan. Years ago, when they closed the Pierce Elevated for resurfacing, there were all sorts of dire predictions about traffic Armageddon. In the event, in a day or so traffic learned how to divert itself and the effect was almost negligible. As long as traffic can be diverted to the Loop or 59, the Pierce doesn't serve any really critical purpose."
 

Is he a traffic neanderthal too? I admit personally I would want to shut down all three freeways through downtown, but at least have shown a willingness to compromise to only get rid of the pierce elevated. It would help downtown, and I don't think the traffic situation would be any worse.

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OK, let's back up. Closing off the Pierce Elevated won't create Hurricane Rita style traffic jams. That much we know. People put up with construction zones even though they don't like it, because the end result is better. In my home in the exurbs to the northwest (I use that term in reference to my city as a joke, even though some people do use it as such), I've seen many construction projects: often narrowing lanes from two to one, or diverting traffic onto side streets that were never intended to handle the load, both from the location and the physical stress (yes, Slick, roads do wear out from traffic). During construction zones, things do become WORSE in terms of traffic, but not for the long run. By proposing a closure of a freeway (and not your outlier examples you use as gospel), you intend to make things worse--permanently.

 

Your ignorance of posts or parts of posts that poke holes in your crackpot theories means you have no realistic approach to actually addressing the problem.

 

Your delusion of removing ALL freeways removes the last shreds of credibility from your argument.

 

Your unabashed lying (which you have never redacted) in previous posts leads me (and others) to believe that you don't live in downtown Houston, or been to Vancouver, or anything like that. Had you a have a full-time job, you should probably be fired for posting all the time on Internet forums. I admit that I have a part-time job this summer, so I can do so freely, but you as a supposedly working adult do not. In either case, you are probably a suburban high schooler enjoying lots of free time, or you are an unemployed (or underemployed, I'm not saying you don't work part time at Taco Bell/Starbucks/Kroger) liberal arts degree graduate, likely still blaming Bush as the reason you can't find a "real" job.

 

See why Montrose, RedScare, and others have left, and it's just you and me? They can't deal with a lunatic who refuses to look at reality, a cultist who would make even the most rabid Bible-thumper seem sane and open-minded.

 

See ya.

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OK, let's back up. Closing off the Pierce Elevated won't create Hurricane Rita style traffic jams. That much we know. People put up with construction zones even though they don't like it, because the end result is better. In my home in the exurbs to the northwest (I use that term in reference to my city as a joke, even though some people do use it as such), I've seen many construction projects: often narrowing lanes from two to one, or diverting traffic onto side streets that were never intended to handle the load, both from the location and the physical stress (yes, Slick, roads do wear out from traffic). During construction zones, things do become WORSE in terms of traffic, but not for the long run. By proposing a closure of a freeway (and not your outlier examples you use as gospel), you intend to make things worse--permanently.

Your ignorance of posts or parts of posts that poke holes in your crackpot theories means you have no realistic approach to actually addressing the problem.

Your delusion of removing ALL freeways removes the last shreds of credibility from your argument.

Your unabashed lying (which you have never redacted) in previous posts leads me (and others) to believe that you don't live in downtown Houston, or been to Vancouver, or anything like that. Had you a have a full-time job, you should probably be fired for posting all the time on Internet forums. I admit that I have a part-time job this summer, so I can do so freely, but you as a supposedly working adult do not. In either case, you are probably a suburban high schooler enjoying lots of free time, or you are an unemployed (or underemployed, I'm not saying you don't work part time at Taco Bell/Starbucks/Kroger) liberal arts degree graduate, likely still blaming Bush as the reason you can't find a "real" job.

See why Montrose, RedScare, and others have left, and it's just you and me? They can't deal with a lunatic who refuses to look at reality, a cultist who would make even the most rabid Bible-thumper seem sane and open-minded.

See ya.

Again you can keep making false accusations about me which I find sad. I met someone that posts here and he can vouch for me. Try to stick to topic. I am just proposing ideas. They most likely will never come to fruition but that's what this forum is about, ideas. The same as Patrick Kennedy who proposes removing 45 through downtown Dallas. I haven't said a thing about you in return to any of your vociferous assaults. And I'm not a liar. Now please try to stay on topic.

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Since few people active in this thread are interested in discussing the topic, it is now closed.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with you people.  Even ones that have been repeatedly reminded to discuss the topic and not other HAIFers don't seem to listen.  I don't know if it's willful, or you're stupid, or can't read, or simply don't care.  But I'm just tired of wasting what little time I have cleaning up after a very small group of supposed adults.

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