102-Story Tower Planned

[HoustonIsHome]

But you told us it would do some Williams Tower kind of sticking out. That is simply false.

not false at all. It indeed would stand out exactly like Williams. The thing will be 15 times the height of GRB and three times as tall as the tallest thing in the immediate area.

It would definitely be the Williams tower of that part of downtown.

As I demonstrated,

What you demonstrated was a comparison on the other side of downtown. That's just silly. Compare it with building 100 to 500 feet away not buildings ten or 12 blocks away

(And 1400' would not be double the height of Heritage Plaza, nor even One Shell Plaza (quite close on Shell, but not quite double.)

Why are you so hostile?

Proposed tower 1400 ft

Heritage plaza 762ft

Shell Plaza 715ft

Looks twice as tall to me. Don't be so angry. It's not like I insulted the building (which is still fantasy), I am just pointing out facts calm down. It's not that serious geez. I think it will stick out, you don't think it will, who cares calm down

Please, Chase AND Wells sticks out far past 610. On a clear day when on top of The Woodlands flyover from 45 to Woodlands Pkwy, you can see both those towers sticking up. Plus, most days you can easily see Chase, Wells and even Continental sticking up from the FM 2920 on 45 heading south.

I agree, and that's what I'm trying to tell the poster above, Chase stands out among buildings that are only a few hundred feet shorter, this would be much much taller in an area with much shorter buildings

[HoustonIsHome]

Why are we arguing over something that is far from being in the works?

[Houston19514]

not false at all. It indeed would stand out exactly like Williams. The thing will be 15 times the height of GRB and three times as tall as the tallest thing in the immediate area.

It would definitely be the Williams tower of that part of downtown.

What you demonstrated was a comparison on the other side of downtown. That's just silly. Compare it with building 100 to 500 feet away not buildings ten or 12 blocks away

Why are you so hostile?

Proposed tower 1400 ft

Heritage plaza 762ft

Shell Plaza 715ft

Looks twice as tall to me. Don't be so angry. It's not like I insulted the building (which is still fantasy), I am just pointing out facts calm down. It's not that serious geez. I think it will stick out, you don't think it will, who cares calm down

I agree, and that's what I'm trying to tell the poster above, Chase stands out among buildings that are only a few hundred feet shorter, this would be much much taller in an area with much shorter buildings

 

Good grief, man.  I have no hostility or anger whatsoever.  I detect a little psychological projection going on here...  ;-)

 

One doesn't look at a skyline by holding up one's hands to block the portions one doesn't want to include in the picture (and thus view only the buildings within 100-500 feet.)  One looks at the skyline as it appears in front of one's face.

 

No matter what angle from which one views the Uptown "skyline", the Williams Tower stands out like crazy, more than double the height of anything near, FAR more than double the vast majority of the buildings.

 

Viewing the downtown skyline from any angle with the fantasy 1400' building over by Minute Maid, the view would include many buildings significantly more than 1/2 the height of this new tower. 

 

Here are the facts.  The top 30 buildings in Downtown and Uptown (including the fantasy 1400 footer downtown), showing how they other buildings in the respective areas compare to the tallest.  Downtown buildings fare much better compared to the 1400 footer than Uptown buildings do to Williams.  And that doesn't tell the whole story.  The downtown buildings are all withing 1 mile (the vast majority well under 1 mile) of the tallest. Uptown buildings spread out more than 1 1/2 miles from the tallest in a couple directions.   The taller ones are especially far from Williams. 

 

Downtown:

 

1400

1002  (71.6% as tall as the tallest)    1/2 mile distant

992   (70.9%)     2/3 mile distant

780   (55.7%)    1/2 mile +

762   (54.4%)    3/4 mile

756   (54%)       2/3 mile

741   (52.9%)   1/2 mile +

732   (52.3%)    .9 mile

725   (51.8%)    .2 mile

714   (51%)       .6 mile

691   (49.4%)   .8 mile

685   (48.9%)  

678   (48.4%)

662   (47.3%)

630   (45%)

606   (43.3%)

600   (42.9%)

579   (41.4%)

550   (39.3%)

550   (39.3%)

523   (37.4%)

523   (37.4%)

521  (37.2%)

518   (37%)

502   (35.9%)

490   (35%)

453   (32.4%)

452   (32.3%)

428   (30.6%)

410   (29.3%)

 

 

Uptown:

 

901

625   (69.4%)   1 1/2 miles + distant

562   (62.4%)   1 mile + distant

444   (49.3%)   1 mile distant

444   (49.3%)   1 miles distant

420   (46.6%)   1 mile +

401   (44.5%)   1/2 mile

389   (43.2%)   1 mile

351   (39%)      1 mile +

351   (39%)      1 mile +

351   (39%)      1/2 mile

334   (37.1%)

333   (37%)

330   (36.6%)

330   (36.6%)

322   (35.7%)

321   (35.6%)

321   (35.6%)

318   (35.3%)

315   (35%)

308   (34.2%)

298   (33.1%)

290   (32.2%)

289   (32.1%)

271   (30.1%)

245   (27.2%)

243   (27%)

242   (26.9%)

242   (26.9%)

188   (20.9%)

[HoustonIsHome]

You have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing you say will convince me that a 102 floor building near minute maid won't stick out like crazy.

[arche_757]

Kind of like this...

[Houston19514]

Kind of like this...

 

Perhaps something like Willis Tower in Chicago sticks out, yes.  (Although that particular picture exaggerates it and shows what one can do with clever camera angles and cropping.   But even that does not stick out anything like Williams Tower.  Williams Tower is in a league of its own for "sticking out."

 

[Houston19514]

You have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing you say will convince me that a 102 floor building near minute maid won't stick out like crazy.

 

Again, nobody has suggested that it won't stick out.  Even stick out "like crazy," if you please.  But it would not stick out as much as the Williams Tower.  Spend some time looking at the heights and distances of the groups of buildings and I think will see why I am saying that.

[HoustonIsHome]

Kind of like this...

Yeah pretty much like that

[editor]

The occupancy in downtown Dallas is 30 percent. The Elm Place at 628 feet 52 floors has been sitting there empty for years. Their forum, they say is not going to happen as far as building a 50 or 60 floor skyscraper. You need to tell them they are exaggerating not me.

 

I thought you were just being petulant, so I looked up the real numbers, and you're right -- the latest CBRE survey shows 30% vacancy rate (not occupancy, I'm going to assume you meant vacancy, not occupancy) in Dallas.  That's crazy.  Even in cities that were hit hard by the recession are in the 8-teens range.

 

However, just because a city has a low occupancy rate, doesn't mean it won't get a new tower.  You can have a 15% overall vacancy rate, but if class A availability is at 5% or less, a new tower will be built.  

[Houston19514]

I thought you were just being petulant, so I looked up the real numbers, and you're right -- the latest CBRE survey shows 30% vacancy rate (not occupancy, I'm going to assume you meant vacancy, not occupancy) in Dallas.  That's crazy.  Even in cities that were hit hard by the recession are in the 8-teens range.

 

However, just because a city has a low occupancy rate, doesn't mean it won't get a new tower.  You can have a 15% overall vacancy rate, but if class A availability is at 5% or less, a new tower will be built.  

 

True enough.   Unfortunately for Dallas, they do not have a Class A availability of 5% or less.  FAR from it.  Transwestern has Dallas CBD Class A vacancy at 26.3%.  Uptown Dallas Class A is at 9.9% vacancy.   Of course even that remarkably dismal state of affairs does not mean it won't get a new tower.  All it takes is some combination of deep pockets and willing/able tenants.  Nonetheless, it is indeed highly unlikely that Dallas will see any significant new towers (40+ stories) any time soon, let alone a supertall.

[editor]

Kind of like this...

That's not really a fair picture to use.  Based on the large number of missing buildings in the picture, and the fact that the antennae haven't been put in place yet, I'd say this photo is from 1974.  

Today it looks more like this:

 

Or this one I took walking in the rain one night last week:

 

 

[HoustonIsHome]

That's not really a fair picture to use. Based on the large number of missing buildings in the picture, and the fact that the antennae haven't been put in place yet, I'd say this photo is from 1974.

Today it looks more like this:

Or this one I took walking in the rain one night last week:

IMG_0216.JPG

I think all he meant is to give an example of a building sticking out of a skyline. I don't think the year it suck out mattered

[arche_757]

^Yep.  I actually searched for an older picture.

 

And the view Editor found is actually looking east-north-east (ish) from Wacker.  My view was from what I guess is now Millennium Park (or thereabouts)?

 

My point was just to show an actual 1,400' + building amidst a sea of much smaller buildings.

[Purdueenginerd]

I was gonna bring up the sears tower actually. I recall early photos of the highrise showing it stuck out big time on the skyline. Kudosfor posting that. It took several years for the skyline to catch up.

 

WTC in the 1970s before the construction of battery city

[Montrose1100]

I was gonna bring up the sears tower actually. I recall early photos of the highrise showing it stuck out big time on the skyline. Kudosfor posting that. It took several years for the skyline to catch up.

 

WTC in the 1970s before the construction of battery city

*World Financial Center

[Purdueenginerd]

Thanks, Youre right. 

[Marcus Allen]

Well, both Battery City and the World Financial Center, and now with GS in place, I think the new world trade complex albeit big offers towering structures while integrating with the surrounding skyline. In other words. Although a 102 storey tower would indeed stick out at first, I would think it would spur other future developers to exceed that never ending 40 something storey limitation that seems to hover over DT for the past couple of decades. Bring it on!

[LTAWACS]

Email them and ask about the status of this.

[Naviguessor]

There is no "them"...and I doubt there is a "this".

 

[HoustonIsHome]

In other words. Although a 102 storey tower would indeed stick out at first, I would think it would spur other future developers to exceed that never ending 40 something storey limitation that seems to hover over DT for the past couple of decades. Bring it on!

Oh standing out isn't necessarily a bad thing, it was just an observation.

As for encouraging taller structures, I dunno if that can be said. They are not building 40 floor structures because they think it is cool, they are building as the need arises. There is more to it than tall buildings in the area.

What we need is:

1. Staunch the bleeding of commerce to the burbs.

2. Increase residential

3. Incorporate residential in these mixed use projects

Houston is home to about 100 major companies. We have over 2000 O&G companies. Headquarters of about 25 fortune 500 companies and that's not even counting the ones headquartered elsewhere but have major operations here (Shell, BP, Exxon, Chevron)

Houston has a huge corporate presence. I wouldn't be surprised if it is top three in the country. But sadly Exxon, BP, Conocco, Haliburton, Sysco, Philips 66, Enterprise Product Partners, All American Pipeline, Apache, NOV, Marathon, Cameron International, group 1 automobile, Quanta, FMC, Spectra, Anadarko, MRC, and many many many more fortune 500 companies are located here but choose areas other than downtown. Look I just named about 20. I don't even think Downtown had enough space to house then all. The bigger ones like Exxon and

Conocco would definitely need buildings mite substantial than 40 floors. Heck if the f500 workers were concentrated downtown, the workforce downtown would almost double.

Anyway, all these corporate campuses in the boonies are new, so downtown isn't going to have a big come back anytime soon. We will have more energy corridors, more Woodlands, more scattered towers in the middle of neighborhoods before we see large scale development downtown again.

[LTAWACS]

I agree. This whole idea of building outside the loop must be stopped. Now.

[Sky-guy]

Well, both Battery City and the World Financial Center, and now with GS in place, I think the new world trade complex albeit big offers towering structures while integrating with the surrounding skyline. In other words. Although a 102 storey tower would indeed stick out at first, I would think it would spur other future developers to exceed that never ending 40 something storey limitation that seems to hover over DT for the past couple of decades. Bring it on!

609 Main=47 floors (or is it 49?)

[H-Town Man]

Good grief, man. I have no hostility or anger whatsoever. I detect a little psychological projection going on here... ;-)

One doesn't look at a skyline by holding up one's hands to block the portions one doesn't want to include in the picture (and thus view only the buildings within 100-500 feet.) One looks at the skyline as it appears in front of one's face.

No matter what angle from which one views the Uptown "skyline", the Williams Tower stands out like crazy, more than double the height of anything near, FAR more than double the vast majority of the buildings.

Viewing the downtown skyline from any angle with the fantasy 1400' building over by Minute Maid, the view would include many buildings significantly more than 1/2 the height of this new tower.

Here are the facts. The top 30 buildings in Downtown and Uptown (including the fantasy 1400 footer downtown), showing how they other buildings in the respective areas compare to the tallest. Downtown buildings fare much better compared to the 1400 footer than Uptown buildings do to Williams. And that doesn't tell the whole story. The downtown buildings are all withing 1 mile (the vast majority well under 1 mile) of the tallest. Uptown buildings spread out more than 1 1/2 miles from the tallest in a couple directions. The taller ones are especially far from Williams.

Downtown:

1400

1002 (71.6% as tall as the tallest) 1/2 mile distant

992 (70.9%) 2/3 mile distant

780 (55.7%) 1/2 mile +

762 (54.4%) 3/4 mile

756 (54%) 2/3 mile

741 (52.9%) 1/2 mile +

732 (52.3%) .9 mile

725 (51.8%) .2 mile

714 (51%) .6 mile

691 (49.4%) .8 mile

685 (48.9%)

678 (48.4%)

662 (47.3%)

630 (45%)

606 (43.3%)

600 (42.9%)

579 (41.4%)

550 (39.3%)

550 (39.3%)

523 (37.4%)

523 (37.4%)

521 (37.2%)

518 (37%)

502 (35.9%)

490 (35%)

453 (32.4%)

452 (32.3%)

428 (30.6%)

410 (29.3%)

Uptown:

901

625 (69.4%) 1 1/2 miles + distant

562 (62.4%) 1 mile + distant

444 (49.3%) 1 mile distant

444 (49.3%) 1 miles distant

420 (46.6%) 1 mile +

401 (44.5%) 1/2 mile

389 (43.2%) 1 mile

351 (39%) 1 mile +

351 (39%) 1 mile +

351 (39%) 1/2 mile

334 (37.1%)

333 (37%)

330 (36.6%)

330 (36.6%)

322 (35.7%)

321 (35.6%)

321 (35.6%)

318 (35.3%)

315 (35%)

308 (34.2%)

298 (33.1%)

290 (32.2%)

289 (32.1%)

271 (30.1%)

245 (27.2%)

243 (27%)

242 (26.9%)

242 (26.9%)

188 (20.9%)

In 11 years on haif I have never seen a post quite like this one.

[ClutchCity]

What're the chances that Block 101(100?) that HFF was marketing is the block this is planned for? I may be grasping at straws, but it just seems like it fits what we've been hearing about this project and how the media(including Central Houston) have been pretty quiet about what entity acquired the site and what they want to do with it. It's close to the Ballpark, rail stops at its doorstep, is mixed-use like HFF was requesting in its RFP(and if one of the proposals was a 102 story tower who do you think they're going to pick), the hotel component would be in easy walking to the convention center, and plenty of room(guessing that the footprint would be fairly large but New York has some new examples to the contrary). Pure speculation and I could be completely off base, but it is interesting how something that was so well publicized and on the development map for so long just quietly disappears.

[Triton]

When I post information on this site, I usually know my sources fairly well, so disclaimer... this information is NOT from someone I know too well so I don't know how reliable this information is. But he does currently work at the Texaco building renovation site. This person told me that an 80-story building is planned directly across 59 from Minute Maid Park. It will be located next to the light rail station and the Dynamo Stadium. I can't remember exactly the numbers he tossed around but something about a hotel/retail/condo mix with a parking garage at the bottom levels. I was wondering if maybe this was just some old pre-recessionary rumor floating around so I asked him how long has he known about it: he told me it has been in the works for the past couple of years.

Again, this isn't one of my best sources so I imagine you can take it with a grain of salt but I figured I'd still share it nonetheless.

[lockmat]

Thanks for the info! 

 

I don't see a site that fits this description that is reasonable. On the east side of 59 for something like this? This developer is truly a maverick and pioneer if true.

 

Maybe it's the one bounded by Chatres, Capitol and St. Emanual? I thought a hotel was planned for that site anyway, but certainly nothing this tall.

[Triton]

Thanks for the info! 

 

I don't see a site that fits this description that is reasonable. On the east side of 59 for something like this? This developer is truly a maverick and pioneer if true.

 

Maybe it's the one bounded by Chatres, Capitol and St. Emanual? I thought a hotel was planned for that site anyway, but certainly nothing this tall.

From what he was making it sound like, it could possibly be the giant parking lot bound by St. Emanuel, Texas and Bastrop...?

 

 

He was actually going over several projects that I was already aware of. He was talking about how he saw the Hines office rendering before anyone else, yatta yatta.  He was talking about several projects that HAIF members should be aware of already such as the Hines residential near Market Square and the Capitol Tower... it wasn't until he mentioned this 80 story tower that he caught me off guard.

[lockmat]

That Astros parking lot you mentioned is owned by...a railroad company??? ---> http://hcad.org/records/details.asp?crypt=%94%9A%B0%94%BFg%84%8D%80%7Bqd%8El%87tXtYW%9E%99%A2%D3%89%95%C2e%7CU%8A%7F%86%C0%AB%A8%AD%86%5E&bld=1&tab=1

 

...and also the Houston Sports Authority ---> http://hcad.org/records/details.asp?crypt=%94%9A%B0%94%BFg%84%8D%80%7Chf%8El%87tXtYW%9E%99%A2%D3%89%95%C2e%7CU%8A%7F%86%C0%AB%A8%AD%86%5E&bld=1&tab=1

 

If this is true and they still own it, they must be trying to improve that area, especially between BBVA and MMP, helping to connect the two. I can't imagine it taking two years for hcad to update their database.

 

edit: Could it be the first block I mentioned?

 

Louise Macey, a former city council member, and "current owner" (according to hcad, which seems very fishy) of this block (confirmed by google search of the address and suite number) is described by the linked story below as, "a below-the-radar middleman who can put together investment groups for land and commercial property plays."

 

Check out these other interesting quotes:

 

"Palmer will not disclose when Enron's option on the property runs out, but does say the company is in talks with real estate firms about development possibilities, and that multi-use would make sense."

 

"Multiple real estate sources say The Mills Corp. has been contacted about developing an "entertainment-themed" retail complex."

 

"One City Hall source says the Mills deal appears to be off -- at least for the moment. According to the source, the rumored development of a major retail complex -- similar to the Theater District's Bayou Place"

 

"Mills is currently testing "The Block," a new urban prototype designed for dense areas that features an open-air concept catering to younger crowds through innovative decor, restaurants, clubs and targeted retail."

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/1999/06/21/story1.html?page=all

 

This article is super old (1999), and The Mills Corp now seems like it as since been acquired by Simon Properties, per google. I'm not suggesting the same plans are in place, but it seems like he's had a vision of a major mixed-use development for this area for a long time, and this could be perfect timing for him. I'm going to research a little more and see if he still owns any other blocks in this area. It'd be a lot easier if it wasn't listed as "current owner" on hcad, as previously stated. To me, that seems very fishy.

 

http://hcad.org/records/details.asp?crypt=%94%9A%B0%94%BFg%84%8D%80%7Bol%8El%87tXtYW%9E%99%A2%D3%89%95%C2e%7CU%8A%7F%86%C0%AB%A8%AD%86%5E&bld=1&tab=1

[Triton]

 

edit: Could it be the first block I mentioned?

Based on everything you posted, it more likely is this property then. 

Admittedly, he actually said "near light rail and Dynamo stadium" and not "next to." And again, the area he gave me was pretty general.. "across 59 from Minute Maid Park."

 

He said one of the big selling points for the upper floors would be "a birds eye view of any baseball game occurring in Minute Maid Park."

 

So that's all I got

[TowerSpotter]

So....Is there more than 1 supertall planned or is this one scaled down?