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Aris At Market Square: 32-Story High-Rise At 409 Travis St.


Mab

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Where did you get $240psf? That is a really high price.

 

 

head of Hines multi family southwest division

yeah.. he was saying it was quite a high price, and that people needed to start learning how to develop denser and smarter because of these higher prices.

edit. they definitely paid a premium for Market Square frontage, so that $240 quote was just for their plot, not average downtown prices. but he seemed to be speaking on behalf of the majority of the DLI applicants that it wouldn't of made sense economically and they wouldn't of been able to move forward on their projects without the incentives.

Edited by cloud713
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I wonder if they could do a similar incentive for retail - something like a sales tax break on all groceries or dry-goods sold. (Yes I realize the grocery basics don't have sales tax but prepared frozen food does, toilet paper, etc - things that Phoenicia doesn't have anyway)

I think that may be something they could be working towards. I expect for us to begin seeing new retail downtown once these residential projects are about halfway to 3/4 way done.

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Lets also remember that before all these apartments it was a completely foreign idea to most developers here to put residential in Downtown. In this case it was up to the city to sell the idea to developers and that sell was creating an incentive or a nudge to help lead developers to the idea that this was possible. The biggest question is once these res buildings are built what will the business client be then in terms of taking a greater risk to build in downtown. If these buildings are successful then you got the "build it and they will come" mentality and then we might see a rush into the downtown the likes we haven't seen. At that point you might not need another blanket incentive, but then you can start isolating areas of downtown with separate incentives or create other blanket incentives that help bring a greater variety of incomes into downtown.

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Lets also remember that before all these apartments it was a completely foreign idea to most developers here to put residential in Downtown. In this case it was up to the city to sell the idea to developers and that sell was creating an incentive or a nudge to help lead developers to the idea that this was possible. The biggest question is once these res buildings are built what will the business client be then in terms of taking a greater risk to build in downtown. If these buildings are successful then you got the "build it and they will come" mentality and then we might see a rush into the downtown the likes we haven't seen. At that point you might not need another blanket incentive, but then you can start isolating areas of downtown with separate incentives or create other blanket incentives that help bring a greater variety of incomes into downtown.

Very well put point. I would like to see a couple more incentives in place, just until things begin to stabilize on their own. I completely agree though with your comment.

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you are absolutely right Luminare. and let me be clear, the meeting was almost all positives. the commentator asked for some "not so rosy comments" from the panel and they were having a hard time coming up with negatives about downtowns future, and accidentally sidetracked onto positives a few times. heh. obviously people are able to make these projects work with the climbing land prices. they will just have to start getting more creative with their developments and less 609 Main-esque entire block one tower projects.

Edited by cloud713
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yeah.. he was saying it was quite a high price, and that people needed to start learning how to develop denser and smarter because of these higher prices.

edit. they definitely paid a premium for Market Square frontage, so that $240 quote was just for their plot, not average downtown prices. but he seemed to be speaking on behalf of the majority of the DLI applicants that it wouldn't of made sense economically and they wouldn't of been able to move forward on their projects without the incentives.

 

Wow, Camden paid $125psf for their land near the Toyota Center. I'm sure Market Square is a more appealing area, but twice the price seems tough to swallow.

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Wow, Camden paid $125psf for their land near the Toyota Center. I'm sure Market Square is a more appealing area, but twice the price seems tough to swallow.

 

There's also more vacant lots around the Toyota Center.  There's not many more surface lots around Market square

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Market Square is way more desirable than Toyota Center area. Market Square is a functional park now surrounded by existing businesses like Batanga, La Carafe, Market Sq Cafe, Main St bars, etc... It's also a very short walk to the bayou trails, which is great for dog walkers. You're also closer to Sundance, Alley, Wortham, Jones Hall, Hobby Center, and most of the class A office towers. Most importantly though, you're closer to the majority of downtown's residents at Rice Lofts, Hogg Palace, Hermann Lofts, Capitol Lofts, Bayou Lofts, Byrd Lofts, and a few others. 

 

 

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I'm all for the DLI, but I personally don't think there should be more large-scale incentives like this for developers to come downtown.  The nudge in the right direction was crucial, but let the market determine the rest.  You have less risk for players to enter the market that otherwise should not have been in the game, w/o the additional funding.  I want downtown to be a destination like anyone else, but let the invisible hand do the work.  There does not need to be a retail-incentive package.  You have the possibility of 5,000 units coming online in the next 2-3 years.  All of these residents have the disposable income that will make retailers want to be downtown.  The Allen Center and Houston Center proposed GF improvements will really enhance the street level bringing more people up from the tunnels and opening up more opportunity for retailers.  Safe, walkable, and lively downtown streets will further promote downtown living, and removing incentives will make the market more competitive giving consumers the best finished product.  The units under development will create a domino-effect and the outcome everyone is hoping for. 

 

All of the above is just my opinion, of course.

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Downtown Houston build an indoor public ice rink someplace, charge a reasonable fee to skate. Build a rock climbing place in the Warehouse District. Build a trampoline gym there too, and a big lazer tag place.

Thank you, Timoric.

I shall now steal your ideas and make untold MILLIONS from them. You are a great man indeed, a TRUE visionary!

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Like the colors and saturation of this pic, whatever you did differently... (maybe tinted window?)

 

Tinted window and I cropped it down from a larger file so there is less resolution than if I had an actual camera that I could set the frame from where I was. Totally accidental, but the sunlight angle was in my favor.

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I wonder if they could do a similar incentive for retail - something like a sales tax break on all groceries or dry-goods sold. (Yes I realize the grocery basics don't have sales tax but prepared frozen food does, toilet paper, etc - things that Phoenicia doesn't have anyway)

There have been retail and restaurant incentives in place since about 2005. OKRA, Batanga, Oxheart, Honeymoon, Little Dipper, El Big Bad, etc used them to get open. Only soft good retailer I know of that used the retail incentive was the Tipping Point, which has now closed. American Apparel was set to receive incentives about 10 years ago before the landlord of the Sakowitz building pulled the deal from them.

Edited by largeTEXAS
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Any good rooftop bars in downtown, current or coming soon? Or a building that SHOULD have one on top?

There's one in the Hilton, 1 Shell (Houston Club), Total Plaza (petroleum club), but those are venues that you have to be a member or rent out. There's one ontop of the Wedge that's a restaurant but it has office hours. Spindle top on the Hyatt (restaurant).
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There's one in the Hilton, 1 Shell (Houston Club), Total Plaza (petroleum club), but those are venues that you have to be a member or rent out. There's one ontop of the Wedge that's a restaurant but it has office hours. Spindle top on the Hyatt (restaurant).

 

I don't think those qualify as roofTOP.  I think he is talking about outdoor areas.

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