Texasota Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 "No one going to a big bar or live music club is going to shop for antiques, boutique clothing, or home decor on 19th street before they go to see Sparkle Pony." Are you familiar with a little street named Westheimer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Check out White Oak and Studewood on a Friday or Saturday night. I cannot think of anyone who wants that for 19th street. Umm...I live next door to it. I am there often during both the day and at night. It is MUCH better than before the arrival of Christian's, D'Amicoos, and the other establishments. Lame 19th Street should be so lucky as to get these stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJxvi Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Except that 19th St is a much more commercialized area than White Oak. White Oak is one narrow strip in a neighborhood. The area around 19th street is about 6 or 7 eighth mile by eighth mile squares (14 or more entire blocks) where there are very few residences and instead there are hospitals, banks, churches, schools, businesses, stores, utility areas, and major streets with street front parking including the Blvd ie tons and tons and tons of places to park without doing so in front of somebody's house unlike White Oak. It would be better for the neighborhood if White Oak was more like 19th and vice versa, IMO. (Not that I would be enthused about White Oak being a bunch of old boring shops that serve more as a "look how things were in the old timey days main streets!" novelty spot) Just pull up Google maps and compare the overhead satellite imagery of the 19th and Rutland and the surrounding blocks and then compare to White Oak and Studewood. Edited May 17, 2013 by JJxvi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I remember discussing with the owners of the Tea place that used to be open on 19th... it was impossible to draw anyone in because the whole area was dead after 5-6. The name of the place escapes me at the moment (sweet tea?), but they had fantastic tea, and rather good chicken salad croissants. A few seasoned ladies dropping in for tea just wasn't enough to sustain a business. I have a plan for spot on 19th street, and i've been looking in to it for a while. The cost to do what I want shouldn't be much, but due to city regulations/dry zones/ chumps that will try to block it for no good reason, I haven't pulled the trigger yet (and sadly for the neighborhood and myself, likely won't). I'm also willing to bet the Heights Theatre was an active place at night back in the 30s... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Many people think the best part of 19th street is the lack of nightlife. Many are not happy with how the bar scene on White Oak has created a little Washington Ave in the Heights. I would like to see a few more restaurants on 19th and maybe another low key bar like Down House. But a live music venue or big bar like Christian's would not be a good thing for 19th st. Repurposing the church buildings would be very difficult. It is such an odd configuration of buildings due to the ad hoc nature of the growth and expansion of that church. The 1912 building actually has a first floor that is a few feet under the street level. Getting it to be ADA compliant would be a major undertaking. I would love to see someone take a shot at it, but it would take more money than a local private investor is going to want to put up. I patronize businesses on White Oak regularly, yet I never visit those on 19th. I think 19th looks cool due to the old storefronts, but the businesses mostly cater to women and elderly. I think it would be great to have a few neighborhood bars along the strip to give it some life after 5pm, but I won't hold my breath that it will ever happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 I remember discussing with the owners of the Tea place that used to be open on 19th... it was impossible to draw anyone in because the whole area was dead after 5-6. The name of the place escapes me at the moment (sweet tea?), but they had fantastic tea, and rather good chicken salad croissants. A few seasoned ladies dropping in for tea just wasn't enough to sustain a business. I have a plan for spot on 19th street, and i've been looking in to it for a while. The cost to do what I want shouldn't be much, but due to city regulations/dry zones/ chumps that will try to block it for no good reason, I haven't pulled the trigger yet (and sadly for the neighborhood and myself, likely won't). I'm also willing to bet the Heights Theatre was an active place at night back in the 30s... Shade has had no trouble packing them in after 6 pm even though the rest of 19th is dead. The tea house failed because the food wasn't good enough to get anyone to eat there except out of convenience and tea houses never really caught on in Houston. Restaurants in Houston that are counting on foot traffic to drive sales are restaurants that will be short lived. If the food is good, people will come. Places like Mockingbird Bistro, La Fisheria, and Roost are completely out of the way and would only be found if you were either were specifically looking for it or got lost and stumbled across it. Just Dinner doesn't even have a sign. 19th doesn't need nightlife if that term is to mean live music venues or large bars. Neither will do anything for the retail on 19th street. None of the few retail spots on White Oak are open after 6 pm on the weekends. That is because no one going to bars or live music clubs is looking to shop. They come into the neighborhood to drink and party. That is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Shade has had no trouble packing them in after 6 pm even though the rest of 19th is dead. The tea house failed because the food wasn't good enough to get anyone to eat there except out of convenience and tea houses never really caught on in Houston. Restaurants in Houston that are counting on foot traffic to drive sales are restaurants that will be short lived. If the food is good, people will come. Places like Mockingbird Bistro, La Fisheria, and Roost are completely out of the way and would only be found if you were either were specifically looking for it or got lost and stumbled across it. Just Dinner doesn't even have a sign. 19th doesn't need nightlife if that term is to mean live music venues or large bars. Neither will do anything for the retail on 19th street. None of the few retail spots on White Oak are open after 6 pm on the weekends. That is because no one going to bars or live music clubs is looking to shop. They come into the neighborhood to drink and party. That is it. 19th does not need retail - it needs popular restaurants. The retail on 19th is abysmal... not just bad, its terrible. Its full of junk that NOBODY wants...I havent a clue how any place there is in business at all....that is why there is never anyone there, ever. Shade does fine b/c its a destination restaurant....down house does ok b/c there is not a whole lot of competition until you get to white oak, or cedar creek. 19th would take off if we could just get rid of all the junk/niche/stupid retail...let the image of the heights being a liberal, hipster utopia go, and accept the fact that the Heights is being completely inundated with young families who are completely taking over. I would love 19th to be a street of nice places for casual dinners. There is a rapidly increasingly high number of young 30's parents with kids who would love to have a few more places to go eat dinner other than just Collinas....really Collinas has the family market locked up tight. Go there any Friday/Saturday before 6, and its all families. They have 10 or so highchairs and if your not there early, your SOL on the high chair front. Evict the junk retail that NOBODY wants and lets move some family places in...the heights isnt just changing, its evolving. Though the census data does not definitely confirm the family increases, just walking around talking to folks does. The era of the hipster heights is over. Families are invading, and invading at a pace that just about nobody can compete with...the historic ordinance, tried to slow down the family invasion, but its only been successful at shifting the bulk of the invasion west....which has driven up the values on the west side quite nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 19th does not need retail - it needs popular restaurants. The retail on 19th is abysmal... not just bad, its terrible. Its full of junk that NOBODY wants...I havent a clue how any place there is in business at all....that is why there is never anyone there, ever. Shade does fine b/c its a destination restaurant....down house does ok b/c there is not a whole lot of competition until you get to white oak, or cedar creek. 19th would take off if we could just get rid of all the junk/niche/stupid retail...let the image of the heights being a liberal, hipster utopia go, and accept the fact that the Heights is being completely inundated with young families who are completely taking over. I would love 19th to be a street of nice places for casual dinners. There is a rapidly increasingly high number of young 30's parents with kids who would love to have a few more places to go eat dinner other than just Collinas....really Collinas has the family market locked up tight. Go there any Friday/Saturday before 6, and its all families. They have 10 or so highchairs and if your not there early, your SOL on the high chair front. Evict the junk retail that NOBODY wants and lets move some family places in...the heights isnt just changing, its evolving. Though the census data does not definitely confirm the family increases, just walking around talking to folks does. The era of the hipster heights is over. Families are invading, and invading at a pace that just about nobody can compete with...the historic ordinance, tried to slow down the family invasion, but its only been successful at shifting the bulk of the invasion west....which has driven up the values on the west side quite nicely. The good news is that Mr. Ainbinder has got you covered. Add the Yale St. Markets 250k sq ft of strip mall/suburban retail and you will have a hipster free zone in the Heights. 19th street is actually very successful. What you think are junk shops and hipster trash bins are actually very successful antique shops and boutiques that attract people from the suburbs on the weekends. The big thrift store and "fire sale" store on the far east end of 19th by Yale will not be there much longer. But the rest of 19th st. is just fine as it is. But, oddly, we are actually in agreement on restaurants. I am all for more restaurants in and around 19th St. I do not want large bars or a live music venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Shade has had no trouble packing them in after 6 pm even though the rest of 19th is dead. The tea house failed because the food wasn't good enough to get anyone to eat there except out of convenience and tea houses never really caught on in Houston. Restaurants in Houston that are counting on foot traffic to drive sales are restaurants that will be short lived. If the food is good, people will come. Places like Mockingbird Bistro, La Fisheria, and Roost are completely out of the way and would only be found if you were either were specifically looking for it or got lost and stumbled across it. Just Dinner doesn't even have a sign. 19th doesn't need nightlife if that term is to mean live music venues or large bars. Neither will do anything for the retail on 19th street. None of the few retail spots on White Oak are open after 6 pm on the weekends. That is because no one going to bars or live music clubs is looking to shop. They come into the neighborhood to drink and party. That is it. Of the few retail places on White Oak... one of them is open after 6pm on weekends regularly. Heights Vinyl has been open at midnight when I skated by on my way to Onion Creek. Tea Houses never really caught on in Houston (why are there so many then???) Did you even live here when the Tea place was open? Your continual contradictions blow my mind... your complaining that 19th doesn't need evening destinations (other than Shade?) but anytime something is being built your the one saying (why isn't this mixed use, why isn't this pedestrian freindly). 19th Street NEEDS people. Having places to go will put people there. Your view of bars and music clubs is rediculously skewed. A nice bar (lets keep it Hipster and say a Gin Bar) would draw a certain type of crowd to the area... these are the same people that would likely impulse shop. How about a blues lounge with some good ole New Orleans Soul Blues being played... These are the things that would go well on 19th, but since nobody is there, it isn't worth taking the risk. Once a few more restaurants and regular bars open up and maybe some retail with a stronger draw after 6pm get established it will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGM Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Your view of bars and music clubs is rediculously skewed.Well for starters the historic folks are living in the Prohibition Era. (Think of it like a Heights version of Midnight in Paris) Because of this your vision for smoke-filled dens of iniquity will never be approved. I suggest you go the speakeasy route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 The good news is that Mr. Ainbinder has got you covered. Add the Yale St. Markets 250k sq ft of strip mall/suburban retail and you will have a hipster free zone in the Heights. 19th street is actually very successful. What you think are junk shops and hipster trash bins are actually very successful antique shops and boutiques that attract people from the suburbs on the weekends. The big thrift store and "fire sale" store on the far east end of 19th by Yale will not be there much longer. But the rest of 19th st. is just fine as it is. But, oddly, we are actually in agreement on restaurants. I am all for more restaurants in and around 19th St. I do not want large bars or a live music venue. The area outside of I-10 is not the Heights. I would rather replace the worthless stores with something useful to people everyday....There is an antique, junk stuff, community near waco somewhere...we can just relocate those businesses there. Your definition of very successful and my definition of very successful are VERY different. If everyday people dont go to a place, its a niche store, and in a highly desirable area like the Heights, its a failure. The Heights has the demographics to do big business, unfortunately that ability is constrained by those who still think its 1920. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) 19th does not need retail - it needs popular restaurants. The retail on 19th is abysmal... not just bad, its terrible. Its full of junk that NOBODY wants...I havent a clue how any place there is in business at all....that is why there is never anyone there, ever. One of the few heights destinations I go to (outside of the Walmart and I don't really consider that in the heights) is the buffalo exchange on 19th specifically because everyone believes this. I can get interesting looking clothes for pretty cheap, compared to other resale shops (and even the other buffalo exchange) on Westheimer. The trick is to go on Thursday night, if you're in the mood for picking things up before the weekenders hit it, or the other locations come and fleece them of their good stuff. Edited May 20, 2013 by samagon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 The area outside of I-10 is not the Heights. I would rather replace the worthless stores with something useful to people everyday....There is an antique, junk stuff, community near waco somewhere...we can just relocate those businesses there. Your definition of very successful and my definition of very successful are VERY different. If everyday people dont go to a place, its a niche store, and in a highly desirable area like the Heights, its a failure. The Heights has the demographics to do big business, unfortunately that ability is constrained by those who still think its 1920. The leasing agent for 19th St. is a big for profit broker (Fidelis?) not some hipster/preservationist collective. Those "junk" shops are making them good money. If 19th street was full of stores from the mall, people wouldn't be beating each other over the head to buy a house in the Heights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 One of the few heights destinations I go to (outside of the Walmart and I don't really consider that in the heights) is the buffalo exchange on 19th specifically because everyone believes this. I can get interesting looking clothes for pretty cheap, compared to other resale shops (and even the other buffalo exchange) on Westheimer. The trick is to go on Thursday night, if you're in the mood for picking things up before the weekenders hit it, or the other locations come and fleece them of their good stuff. You would be shopping at a resale shop for children if you went to where Buffalo Exchange was on 19th st. Depsite popular opinion on message boards and the comment section on the Chronicle, there are not that many hipsters in the Heights. Buffalo Exchange did not last in the alleged hipster haven of the Heights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 The leasing agent for 19th St. is a big for profit broker (Fidelis?) not some hipster/preservationist collective. Those "junk" shops are making them good money. If 19th street was full of stores from the mall, people wouldn't be beating each other over the head to buy a house in the Heights. Nobody wants mall stores - heck nobody even wants retail. People want casual restaurants that cater to families....People are beating themselves over the head for houses in the Heights for one reason. LOCATION. If people wanted the feel of the heights and location did not matter they would live in historic Alvin, it makes the heights look brand new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) You would be shopping at a resale shop for children if you went to where Buffalo Exchange was on 19th st. Depsite popular opinion on message boards and the comment section on the Chronicle, there are not that many hipsters in the Heights. Buffalo Exchange did not last in the alleged hipster haven of the Heights. They closed that location? Admittedly, the last time I went was last summer and got a nice blazer for $5. I guess that shows how often I go resale shopping. As far as how many hipsters do or do not live in the heights, next time there's a music festival in Austin look and see how many people are not home, or better yet, take a trek around your neighborhood this week and see how many people are headed out to flipside this coming weekend. Edited May 20, 2013 by samagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 You would be shopping at a resale shop for children if you went to where Buffalo Exchange was on 19th st. Depsite popular opinion on message boards and the comment section on the Chronicle, there are not that many hipsters in the Heights. Buffalo Exchange did not last in the alleged hipster haven of the Heights. So, the only store worth visiting has already closed? Another reason we need some bars and restaurants on 19th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverJK Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Langford Market is a good store. (my wife loves it). After having a discussion with someone from that company, they were telling me how they wish they could stay open later but can't justify it with the lack of foot traffic. There store in the French Quarter however... (actually they have two sister stores there) does stay open late and rakes in the money from people going for drinks/food. Not everyone that goes to the bars is getting wasted and passing out in the street... most of the stores still close around 11pm or midnight... just before the sloppy party drunks get going. A bar/club/music venue isn't only open for the closing at 2am which seems to be the complaint of some. A lot of bars enjoy success during the 7pm-12am window where you just drop in a for a few drinks. I would like to see a push for these smaller/more intimate bars and live music venues. I mean... where the hell can I get a good Martini around here? Downhouse is too pretentious and proud of themselves (some people like that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west20th Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 ....Evict the junk retail that NOBODY wants and lets move some family places in... Those stores are there because they make $$$. Even the Label Wharehouse. Why do you hate free market capitalism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJxvi Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) If 19th street was full of stores from the mall, people wouldn't be beating each other over the head to buy a house in the Heights. This is a laughable claim. Have you ever been to, say, Rice Village? Edited May 20, 2013 by JJxvi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJxvi Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) This Baptist Temple thing is really kinda tame, small beans. The real story will be what is Weingarten's long term plan for the block across the street. When they redevelop or sell, will it be retail like the Village Arcade? Will it be apartments? Both? Edited May 20, 2013 by JJxvi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksmu Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Those stores are there because they make $$$. Even the Label Wharehouse. Why do you hate free market capitalism? I love free market capitalism. The stores may make money, but I can think of tons of places that would be better. I would not kick them out if I were the landlord - but as a resident I can sure wish that something that normal folks went to would go in. My evict them statement was more just puffing - I would never tell someone what to do with their own property. But I can also wish for something that did not suck...I drive by the stores on 19th frequently, and they are always empty. I really am not sure how they make money b/c they are always empty. Rent must be dirt cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 This is a laughable claim. Have you ever been to, say, Rice Village? Apples and oranges. Rice Village has about 10x the retail sq footage. A few mall shops mixed in with majority boutique/non-mall retail and restaurants is not the kind of thing that Marksmu is advocating. He wants to pluck a strip mall from Pearland and slam it on top of 19th street. Also, 19th street has a small town vibe (art market, festivals, etc.) that is very much a major draw for the Heights. It has been written up in a number of national publications over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) The number of people who bought in the Heights because of junk dealers on 19th Street is plus or minus zero. While I am sure that the above poster will claim that this is why he moved here, no one else did. But, hey, it sounded good to him. By the way, the number of people who bought in the Heights because of what they read in "national publications" is likewise...zero. Edited May 20, 2013 by RedScare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 The number of people who bought in the Heights because of junk dealers on 19th Street is plus or minus zero. While I am sure that the above poster will claim that this is why he moved here, no one else did. But, hey, it sounded good to him. By the way, the number of people who bought in the Heights because of what they read in "national publications" is likewise...zero. Yeah, you are right. Everyone I meet who moved to the Heights thinks that 19th street is a dump and can't wait for it to be demoed and replaced with bars and clubs. Only when that happens will the neighborhood ever take off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yeah, you are right. Everyone I meet who moved to the Heights thinks that 19th street is a dump and can't wait for it to be demoed and replaced with bars and clubs. Only when that happens will the neighborhood ever take off. Given your penchant for exaggeration, I'd posit that this number is no more than one or two. Besides, per usual, you are now moving the goalposts. Your initial statement was that everyone moved to the Heights BECAUSE of 19th Street. Now, after the ridiculousness of that statement was exposed, you changed it to people moving here thinking 19th Street is a dump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwki Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I'm so confused...not sure who wants what anymore. My retail world is online except for impulse shopping when I travel and want something souvenirish along the tourist strip. The days of Mayberry shopping are gone, Kaplan's was the last gasp. Antique stores / art galleries are an exception but they seem to need critical mass for long-term success, like Magazine Street in New Orleans which lost all the Mayberry long ago to be replaced by........restaurants and bars. Locals who like that sort of thing will go there for antiques and have a nice lunch while there. But more and more Magazine Street is becoming an eat/drink destination first as the population gets younger. So I think a successful business model for 19th would follow those lines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yeah, you are right. Everyone I meet who moved to the Heights thinks that 19th street is a dump and can't wait for it to be demoed and replaced with bars and clubs. Only when that happens will the neighborhood ever take off. I for one *like* 19th street, which is why I want to see bars and venues go in to help diversify it. A commercial strip that shuts down at 7 is not sustainable, and the occasional evening artsy events just isnt enough. Adding bars and clubs doesnt usually involve demoing anything; actually they tend to renovate and repurpose historic properties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3mh Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 Given your penchant for exaggeration, I'd posit that this number is no more than one or two. Besides, per usual, you are now moving the goalposts. Your initial statement was that everyone moved to the Heights BECAUSE of 19th Street. Now, after the ridiculousness of that statement was exposed, you changed it to people moving here thinking 19th Street is a dump. Here is all I said: "If 19th street was full of stores from the mall, people wouldn't be beating each other over the head to buy a house in the Heights." The obvious point was that if the retail section of 19th street looked like a chunk of Willobrook Mall, the neighborhood would not be getting the huge premium it is getting. 19th st. is a signature section of the Heights that is a major selling point for the neighborhood and sets it off from all other neighborhoods in Houston. Of course, you cannot argue with that point so you change it in order to suit your needs, as usual. That is the only thing that is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwki Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Here is all I said: "If 19th street was full of stores from the mall, people wouldn't be beating each other over the head to buy a house in the Heights." The obvious point was that if the retail section of 19th street looked like a chunk of Willobrook Mall, the neighborhood would not be getting the huge premium it is getting...... Both of these statements are foolish. Attributing all of the value and interest in the Heights to 19th Street is asinine. 19th Street was here and a lot nicer long before you and all the other value chasers ever arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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