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dfwcre8tive

Dallas Midtown

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This is a long-term plan to redevelop the area near the Galleria at the Dallas North Tollway and IH635. The current Valley View Center has been in decline for several years and will be replaced with a mixed-use district. The new Area Plan for 400+ acres was approved a few weeks ago but will take years (if not decades) to fully implement.

 

http://www.dallasmidtown.com/

 

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2013/05/as-city-looks-to-remake-valley-view-galleria-area-check-cashers-pawn-shops-and-big-boxes-zoned-out-of-existence.html/

 

DallasMidtownAerial.jpg

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This is a long-term plan to redevelop the area near the Galleria at the Dallas North Tollway and IH635.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but did they ever do anything with the Dallas Galleria? I visited it several times in the mid-late 80's and it was the place to be. Last time I was there, in 2000 or 2001 it seemed dead by comparison. Reminded me of how Town & Country was here in Houston in it's later years.

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That would have been before the latest rennovations of the Dallas Galleria in 2005. It made the mall way nicer, but it is still no Houston Galleria.

 

And the midtown Dallas concept is nice. One thing about Dallas is it does think big. And i believe that Dallas will make it happen. Many have said that this no more than what we have at citycentre here in Houston, but Dallas's developments will be much closer in together.

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DallasMidtownAerial.jpg

That'll be quite an urban canyon on the right side of the rendering.

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Pretty impressive vision. Wish we could get plans of that magnitude here in Houston.

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Pretty impressive vision. Wish we could get plans of that magnitude here in Houston.

 

Break out your pencils and draw one then. No one said that those buildings would be constructed. That is simply a drawing of what it COULD look like in 20 or 30 years IF developers all followed one person's idea of what buildings should be built in what locations. It is a safe bet that it will never look like that.

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Break out your pencils and draw one then. No one said that those buildings would be constructed. That is simply a drawing of what it COULD look like in 20 or 30 years IF developers all followed one person's idea of what buildings should be built in what locations. It is a safe bet that it will never look like that.

 

This isn't Houston.  :D

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Break out your pencils and draw one then. No one said that those buildings would be constructed. That is simply a drawing of what it COULD look like in 20 or 30 years IF developers all followed one person's idea of what buildings should be built in what locations. It is a safe bet that it will never look like that.

 

I never said that I believed it would be developed or constructed. All I said is that it was nice that they have plans of that magnitude key word plans. I think that it is more then just someone breaking out pencils. They are trying to get that area zoned so that the type of buildings depicted can possibly be developed in that area.

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And we thought the traffic would be bad at Exxon. This looks nice but that would be a disaster considering there is basically one entering point.

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I never said that I believed it would be developed or constructed. All I said is that it was nice that they have plans of that magnitude key word plans. I think that it is more then just someone breaking out pencils. They are trying to get that area zoned so that the type of buildings depicted can possibly be developed in that area.

Houston has had plenty of pretty plans that haven't happened (e.g., Astroworld site redevelopment, Hardy Yards). When one reads more of the detail of this "plan", one sees how unlikely this plan is to come to fruition. Head scratchers include luxury retail anchored by Sears and JCPenney; and a gondola!

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I would file this in the same folder as the 'Port' of Dallas and the countless other proposals that were announced there and never built. That area is a junk heap and will always be. Wake me up in 30 years.

Edited by Mister X

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That would have been before the latest rennovations of the Dallas Galleria in 2005. It made the mall way nicer, but it is still no Houston Galleria.

And the midtown Dallas concept is nice. One thing about Dallas is it does think big. And i believe that Dallas will make it happen. Many have said that this no more than what we have at citycentre here in Houston, but Dallas's developments will be much closer in together.

How are Dallas developments "much closer in together"?

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Houston has had plenty of pretty plans that haven't happened (e.g., Astroworld site redevelopment, Hardy Yards). When one reads more of the detail of this "plan", one sees how unlikely this plan is to come to fruition. Head scratchers include luxury retail anchored by Sears and JCPenney; and a gondola!

 

I predict that both Astroworld AND Hardy Yards will be redeveloped within 30 years.

 

And, Houston will do it without zoning!

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How are Dallas developments "much closer in together"?

 

It just feels that way when driving through downtown Dallas. It feels that it doesn't take as long to get places, and I think that has alot to do with the way downtown/Uptown Dallas is built. The heart of everything seems to be right there. In Houston, it takes at least 7 minutes to get from downtown to the Museum District. It takes 15-20 minutes to get from downtown to City Centre. Dallas planned their arts district right outside of Uptown which was a pretty smart move.

 

.

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It just feels that way when driving through downtown Dallas. It feels that it doesn't take as long to get places, and I think that has alot to do with the way downtown/Uptown Dallas is built. The heart of everything seems to be right there. In Houston, it takes at least 7 minutes to get from downtown to the Museum District. It takes 15-20 minutes to get from downtown to City Centre. Dallas planned their arts district right outside of Uptown which was a pretty smart move.

 

.

 

Houston has its theater district right in downtown, with at least eight heavily-scheduled performance venues in a compact and urban (compared to the Dallas Arts District) district.  The Dallas Arts District has 4 relatively-lightly scheduled performance venues and 2 musuems.   The Houston Museum District is very near downtown (by either car or rail) and has 19 museums/galleries in close proximity to one another.  How far would one have to travel in Dallas to find that many museums?

 

Couldn't help noticing you ignored the fact that it also takes 15-20 minutes to get from downtown Dallas to this proposed development in north Dallas (the topic of the thread), similar to the time it takes to go from downtown Houston to the CityCentre development (which also has the distinct advantage of actually existing). 

 

How long does it take to get from downtown Dallas to:

 

American Airlines Center

the Ballpark in Arlington

Cowboys Stadium

the MLS stadium in Frisco

 

Now compare that to how long it takes to get from downtown Houston to:

Toyota Center

MinuteMaid Park

Reliant Stadium

BBVA Compass Stadium?

Edited by Houston19514
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Break out your pencils and draw one then. No one said that those buildings would be constructed. That is simply a drawing of what it COULD look like in 20 or 30 years IF developers all followed one person's idea of what buildings should be built in what locations. It is a safe bet that it will never look like that.

 

Yeah, it's unlikely the final product will look anything like the rendering. I do think the central park has a chance of being built and that would encourage SOME residential development in the area. Being surrounded by suburbs, Dallas is starting to realize the only way to grow is to add density (but creating this new North Dallas "town center" won't help downtown at all).

 

 

ValleyViewRedo040413.jpg

Edited by dfwcre8tive

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Being surrounded by suburbs, Dallas is starting to realize the only way to grow is to add density (but creating this new North Dallas "town center" won't help downtown at all).

It's been a few years since I've been there but the last time I was in Dallas it was surrounded by wide open, flat, cheap land all the way to the Oklahoma border. Did some geographical anomaly occur in the last 12 years or so that prevents developers from buying that land and putting up more suburbs?

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Houston has its theater district right in downtown, with at least eight heavily-scheduled performance venues in a compact and urban (compared to the Dallas Arts District) district.  The Dallas Arts District has 4 relatively-lightly scheduled performance venues and 2 musuems.   The Houston Museum District is very near downtown (by either car or rail) and has 19 museums/galleries in close proximity to one another.  How far would one have to travel in Dallas to find that many museums?

 

Couldn't help noticing you ignored the fact that it also takes 15-20 minutes to get from downtown Dallas to this proposed development in north Dallas (the topic of the thread), similar to the time it takes to go from downtown Houston to the CityCentre development (which also has the distinct advantage of actually existing). 

 

How long does it take to get from downtown Dallas to:

 

American Airlines Center

the Ballpark in Arlington

Cowboys Stadium

the MLS stadium in Frisco

 

Now compare that to how long it takes to get from downtown Houston to:

Toyota Center

MinuteMaid Park

Reliant Stadium

BBVA Compass Stadium?

 

Your post made me chuckle, and i mean chuckle at myself.

 

I guess i have to admit, I tend to look at other places and admire what they have from a distance, and automatically think its so much different than what i have at home. Character flaw, i guess. LOL

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It's been a few years since I've been there but the last time I was in Dallas it was surrounded by wide open, flat, cheap land all the way to the Oklahoma border. Did some geographical anomaly occur in the last 12 years or so that prevents developers from buying that land and putting up more suburbs?

 

The City of Dallas is surrounded by other cities (suburbs) and unable to annex more land. Redeveloping underutilized areas helps keep the tax dollars in the city, and there are plenty of areas within the city limits where this can happen.

Edited by dfwcre8tive

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That would have been before the latest rennovations of the Dallas Galleria in 2005. It made the mall way nicer, but it is still no Houston Galleria.

 

And the midtown Dallas concept is nice. One thing about Dallas is it does think big. And i believe that Dallas will make it happen. Many have said that this no more than what we have at citycentre here in Houston, but Dallas's developments will be much closer in together.

 

It's nicer, cleaner, and less crowded than Houston Galleria. 

 

I shake my head at the defensive attitude of Houstonians when Dallas is doing well in anything. 

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I shake my head at people who prove conclusively that they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

It's not just Houstonians, NOBODY in their right mind would be more impressed with the Dallas Galleria than the Houston Galleria. The Houston Galleria is epic. It's like a sprawling indoor mini city located in the middle of the 17th largest business district in the United States which is currently immediately surrounded by building cranes and new construction in every direction. The Dallas Galleria is a white elephant over-sized mall with an ice skating rink in a crappy part of town surrounded by dying malls and decaying apartments. The vibes that each Galleria give off are incomparable.

 

Midtown Dallas is a pipe dream if there ever was one. Any potential that area has to be redeveloped will undoubtedly be siphoned off 15 miles to the north in Frisco. The money moved farther north of LBJ and so did the future.

 

I hope that didn't come off sounding too defensive, because it is the truth.

Edited by Mister X
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I shake my head at people who prove conclusively that they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

It's not just Houstonians, NOBODY in their right mind would be more impressed with the Dallas Galleria than the Houston Galleria. The Houston Galleria is epic. It's like a sprawling indoor mini city located in the middle of the 17th largest business district in the United States which is currently immediately surrounded by building cranes and new construction in every direction. The Dallas Galleria is a white elephant over-sized mall with an ice skating rink in a crappy part of town surrounded by dying malls and decaying apartments. The vibes that each Galleria give off are incomparable.

 

Midtown Dallas is a pipe dream if there ever was one. Any potential that area has to be redeveloped will undoubtedly be siphoned off 15 miles to the north in Frisco. The money moved farther north of LBJ and so did the future.

 

I hope that didn't come off sounding too defensive, because it is the truth.

 

We will see. In some aspects Dallas is much farther along than houston, look at their 80+ miles of rail for example. 

 

And I've lived in Houston and worked for significant periods of time in Dallas. I like Dallas galleria better. 

 

And basically your last post said "Screw Dallas. Just because they said they're going to build something means it can't happen, because that would make Houston look bad." 

Edited by Slick Vik

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I keep looking at those 80 miles of rail and wondering why nobody rides it. Actually, DART is the perfect metaphor for Slick's posts. The grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

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We will see. In some aspects Dallas is much farther along than houston, look at their 80+ miles of rail for example. 

 

And I've lived in Houston and worked for significant periods of time in Dallas. I like Dallas galleria better. 

 

And basically your last post said "Screw Dallas. Just because they said they're going to build something means it can't happen, because that would make Houston look bad." 

 

I don't disagree that in some respects that Dallas is much farther along than Houston. But not when Gallerias are being compared. It's just opinion. If you prefer less crowed, less popular, over-sized malls in junky areas of Dallas to more popular, crowed, successful vibrant business/shopping/living districts in Houston, by all means enjoy yourself. Some people are entertained by Mozart. Some people are entertained by Honey Boo Boo.  Take your pick.

 

And you misunderstood. I never said Midtown Dallas can't happen because it would make Houston look bad. Houston already has this, it's called City Centre. I said Midtown Dallas can't happen because that area of Dallas is too far gone, too far from the money and too far from the hip areas. I think the area will be redeveloped into something. But I'd be willing to bet money that it won't look like that rendering within our lifetimes. I believe there was something similar to this project planned for the old Texas Stadium site in Irving. How'd that work out?

 

I agree with Red Scare this time. This is a simple case of "The Grass Is Greener Syndrome". I've been coming to HAIF long enough to recognize all the symptoms of that disease.  The good news is that it isn't fatal, but it will rot your brain if left untreated.

Edited by Mister X
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I don't disagree that in some respects that Dallas is much farther along than Houston. But not when Gallerias are being compared. It's just opinion. If you prefer less crowed, less popular, over-sized malls in junky areas of Dallas to more popular, crowed, successful vibrant business/shopping/living districts in Houston, by all means enjoy yourself. Some people like Honey Boo Boo. Some people like Mozart. Take your pick.

And you misunderstood. I never said Midtown Dallas can't happen because it would make Houston look bad. Houston already has this, it's called City Centre. I said Midtown Dallas can't happen because that area of Dallas is too far gone, too far from the money and too far from the hip areas. I think the area will be redeveloped in to something. But I'd be willing to bet money that it won't look like that rendering within our lifetimes.

I believe there was something similar to this project planned for the old Texas Stadium site in Irving. How'd that work out?

Galleria area is closer to hip areas than city centre is. Also that area isn't bad Addison has a lot of restaurants and around the galleria are a lot of offices. The only blights are pawn shops and cash loan offices. But it's not the "too far gone" you claim.

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I keep looking at those 80 miles of rail and wondering why nobody rides it. Actually, DART is the perfect metaphor for Slick's posts. The grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

At least it's built. The attitude of people not willing to ride it is something that has to change. I've been to the other side and I'm not a houston homer I can speak honestly about dallas

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Galleria area is closer to hip areas than city centre is. Also that area isn't bad Addison has a lot of restaurants and around the galleria are a lot of offices. The only blights are pawn shops and cash loan offices. But it's not the "too far gone" you claim.

 

Don't forget about the endless acres of run down, decaying apartments, dying malls and ugly strip centers not to mention the pawn shops, check cashing places and dollar stores that stretch every inch of land between the Tollway to Preston and beyond. There is a very good reason that this area has attracted so many of those kinds of businesses. It's called 'Supply and Demand'. Currently there isn't much demand for 4 star restaurants near Valley View Mall. Now THAT'S what I call 'honest'.

 

Those "hip" areas you speak of that are close by will be a drain to any traction that Midtown Dallas could ever establish. There is not much reason for Midtown Dallas to exist. There are a lot of reasons that this project would be very cool. But it certainly seems like there would be many more things working against it. 

 

The Galleria area of Dallas reminds me of the Greenspoint area in Houston. "Isn't bad" you say? I say "bad" is in the eye of the beholder. Just like Greenspoint, the Dallas Galleria area has its good points too.

 

Respectfully, I don't believe you can be honest about Dallas. Anyone who says they prefer the Dallas Galleria to the Houston Galleria is either bias or not playing with a full deck. I will give you credit that you ARE playing with a full deck. So that only leaves the question about your 'honesty'.

Edited by Mister X
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At least it's built. The attitude of people not willing to ride it is something that has to change. I've been to the other side and I'm not a houston homer I can speak honestly about dallas

 

The problem with trains is that if they go to places where no one wants to go they end up empty. Dallas took the cheap route and built their light rail down old rail ROWs. But no one lives or works near those old ROWs. So, they ended up with a very expensive empty train.

 

Pretty useless.

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The problem with trains is that if they go to places where no one wants to go they end up empty. Dallas took the cheap route and built their light rail down old rail ROWs. But no one lives or works near those old ROWs. So, they ended up with a very expensive empty train.

 

Pretty useless.

 

But at least it looks cool when passing by it on the freeway. :D And the lightrail stations are definitely artwork masterpieces.

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Don't forget about the endless acres of run down, decaying apartments, dying malls and ugly strip centers not to mention the pawn shops, check cashing places and dollar stores that stretch every inch of land between the Tollway to Preston and beyond. There is a very good reason that this area has attracted so many of those kinds of businesses. It's called 'Supply and Demand'. Currently there isn't much demand for 4 star restaurants near Valley View Mall. Now THAT'S what I call 'honest'.

Those "hip" areas you speak of that are close by will be a drain to any traction that Midtown Dallas could ever establish. There is not much reason for Midtown Dallas to exist. There are a lot of reasons that this project would be very cool. But it certainly seems like there would be many more things working against it.

The Galleria area of Dallas reminds me of the Greenspoint area in Houston. "Isn't bad" you say? I say "bad" is in the eye of the beholder. Just like Greenspoint, the Dallas Galleria area has its good points too.

Respectfully, I don't believe you can be honest about Dallas. Anyone who says they prefer the Dallas Galleria to the Houston Galleria is either bias or not playing with a full deck. I will give you credit that you ARE playing with a full deck. So that only leaves the question about your 'honesty'.

Ok now you're being an extremist. Dallas galleria area you're comparing to greens point? I've spent many weeks working at the Dallas galleria and have walked around the valley view area day and night and never once felt in danger. This is like comparing Brownsville Brooklyn to the woodlands. And I do prefer the Dallas galleria for the reasons I stayed above: it's cleaner, less crowded, and I like the set up.

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The problem with trains is that if they go to places where no one wants to go they end up empty. Dallas took the cheap route and built their light rail down old rail ROWs. But no one lives or works near those old ROWs. So, they ended up with a very expensive empty train.

Pretty useless.

You're right nobody lives in garland, Richardson, Plano, Addison, Rowlett, etc.

And do you know where much of the money that was used to build DART came from? From houston funds that were never used, thanks bob Lanier.

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It's nicer, cleaner, and less crowded than Houston Galleria. 

Wait, are we talking about the Dallas Galleria or the DART trains?

I shake my head at the defensive attitude of Houstonians when Dallas is doing well in anything. 

We should congratulate DFW on it's extensive highway system. They've got parts or all of 8 named Interstates vs only 4 for Houston and 6 US highways vs 3 for Houston. I haven't found the stats for miles of highways, but the DFW area is so crisscrossed with them that I suspect they've got us beat in total miles as well. We need to build more to catch up. Edited by august948
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Ok now you're being an extremist. Dallas galleria area you're comparing to greens point? I've spent many weeks working at the Dallas galleria and have walked around the valley view area day and night and never once felt in danger. This is like comparing Brownsville Brooklyn to the woodlands. And I do prefer the Dallas galleria for the reasons I stayed above: it's cleaner, less crowded, and I like the set up.

 

Not at all. I call 'em as I see 'em. The area immediately surrounding the Dallas Galleria is blighted the same way the Greenspoint area is blighted. Truth hurts.

 

They are VERY comparable. Both made a big splash in their day. Both are surrounded by trashy apartments.  And most people don't walk around the streets that surround them after dark too often. I'm glad you feel safe walking around Valley View. I'm certain there are people out their who feel safe walking around Greenspoint too. More power to y'all.

 

Also, no one is saying you can't prefer the Dallas Galleria to the Houston Galleria either. It's just not a very commonly shared opinion in either Houston or Dallas. Washed up has been reality t.v. stars still have some fans out their too I suppose. It's no crime to embrace mediocrity, knock yourself out. 

Edited by Mister X
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The Dallas Galleria's redo is nicer than Houston's current Galleria, hands down, but Galleria Dallas is much smaller. I prefer Houston's Galleria by far still because it gives off a vibe as a sense of place. It's immediate surroundings are also far more vibrant and energetic. Restaurants, condos/apartments, the up and coming BLVD place, and West Ave developments add far more to the area. Dallas's Galleria just seems disjointed from everything, almost like an afterthought in the city. Houston's is woven better into the urban fabric.

 

I really think the City of Houston cheated itself by delaying/defeating the University Line and Uptown Lines. Those stupid BRT plans seem like it should've gone on the eastside instead of a premier destination in the city.

 

EDIT:  I just thought of something funny.... Galleria Dallas and Houston's Galleria kind of in a way, represent the comparisons of the cities themselves. Dallas is slightly nicer and glitzier of the two, but smaller and more sterile. Houston's Galleria is nice, but bigger, funkier, and more energetic/chaotic, much kind of like the way the cities are. LOL

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The Dallas Galleria is transitioning to more of a middle-level mall and siphoning remaining stores from Valley View Center (which, in leasable area, was a larger mall). Saks Fifth Avenue will soon be replaced with a flagship Belk, for example. Most of the high-end retailers have moved to NorthPark Center (the largest in the region) or boutiques in smaller retail centers (like Highland Park Village). The consolidation of retail over the past few years has left Valley View Center obsolete.

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I'm not biased, I can see things from a third person perspective because I've lived other places besides Houston and Dallas. They are basically as similar as two cities can get, and seeing petty arguments about the cities is rather hilarious, and sad.

There really aren't a lot of cases where those kind of rivalries don't exist when you have two major cities that are that close to each other. Look at LA-SF, Portland/Seattle, NY/Boston, etc.

A lot of the ways that Houston and Dallas are alike though are the same ways that the other growth cities in the sunbelt are. I grew up in Los Angeles and there's a lot about Houston that reminds me of LA of that time period.

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I'm not biased, I can see things from a third person perspective because I've lived other places besides Houston and Dallas. They are basically as similar as two cities can get, and seeing petty arguments about the cities is rather hilarious, and sad.

 

I don't understand the constant putting down of Houston.   It's childish.. . .

 

;-)

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To reiterate to the usual suspects:

 

Flame wars aren't tolerated here.

HAIF isn't in the business of running city v city flame wars either. 

 

These are the forum rules - you're going to have to abide by them.

 

 

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Darn - I guess I'll have to call off that Navasota/Montgomery cage match that was about to start.

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I agree with DFW Cre8tive, the Dallas Galleria is becoming the new Valley View mall. And I believe it will share the same future.

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I agree with DFW Cre8tive, the Dallas Galleria is becoming the new Valley View mall. And I believe it will share the same future.

 

Which is part of the reason for the area plan, I think. There are good older neighborhoods in this area but Valley View's decline has caused the immediate area to spiral downhill. Having a plan in place to encourage smart development and reinvestment may be one way to stabilize the area and protect the Galleria from a similar fate. 

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Plans are great. No one is impugning the plan. It's only the logistics that are in question. Valley View mall and the Galleria are practically across the street from each other. Everything that worked against Valley View is working against the Galleria. An awful lot has to happen to save the Galleria from the same fate as Valley View. I'm not saying that it isn't possible that the Galleria can alter it's destiny and I certainly think it is encouraging that official efforts are being made to change the area for the better. It's a very big and admirable goal, but as you said it will take decades if it happens at all. A lot can go wrong (or right) during the coarse of decades.

 

Greenspoint mall in Houston could come back into relevance in decades too. Anything's possible.

Edited by Mister X

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I have a question. Does Dallas have a transient/homeless problem in their downtown/midtown areas like Houston?

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I have a question. Does Dallas have a transient/homeless problem in their downtown/midtown areas like Houston?

 

Yes. The Bridge Homeless Recovery Center (which sees 1,200 people per day), permanent supportive housing programs and anti-panhandling ordinances have made a difference, but it's still an issue.  

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I hope it will help this conversation to point out that TheGalleria is 5.5 miles from downtown.  When Gerald Hines went out to Dallas, Ray Nasher already had a mall 5.5 miles from downtown, so he built in an analogous position on the next loop out.

 

CityCentre / once-Town & Country is 11.5 miles from downtown, with Memorial City Mall a mile closer.  The also razed and rebuilt Prestonwood Mall was  12 miles from downtown, with Valley View two miles closer.

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