The End of Suburbia

[Slick Vik]

You do realize that the streetcar networks were originally developed due to massive subsidies from electric companies and real estate developers though right?

 

The scale was not the same.

[Slick Vik]

If you're so bent on suburbia's death, the thing that probably will end happening is the socioeconomic structure prior to suburbs (which were first created by trains and streetcars): the center of town is where the wealthy live, followed by middle class, followed by the poor in the outskirts. In this case, the poor people would be living in the suburbs. 

 

At least that's what I remember from a history class.

 

To an extent this is happening in Houston. The inner loop property values are worth much, much more than suburban house prices, and there is a reason. Real estate value is based on location.

[Slick Vik]

I'll just leave this link here for you to read in regards to GM buying up streetcar lines... GM is not the sole reason for the deterioration of mass transit in the US. Even in cities with Strong Mass transit systems there exists vast and abundant suburbs. NYC, Chicago, and DC all have very large urban footprints. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

 

School funding bias towards suburbs appears to be a byproduct relic of racism and segregation.  Cheaper housing in the suburbs is a product of land availability, population density and desireablity. Theres a reason a new home in Midtown costs $300,000 and a new home in Spring costs $150,000. Coincidentally you can probably buy an old home in the 3rd ward, for $80,000. The only federal subsidy that really comes into play for those three homes involves property tax deductible. 

 

Can local government do more to promote growth in the urban core? Sure! You won't hear any qualms from me about that. 

 

Regardless, youve changed your argument again.  First you were indicating that the global oil market will lead to the downfall of suburbia. I think we all here refuted that. Now your argument is, that some "evil conspiracy" to build more suburbs is at play. In my opinion, suburbs exist because of economic conditions and racial discrimination for the last century. Nearly every city in North America is experiencing a rebirth of their city core in the last decade. Perhaps the racial discrimination, or the economic advantages associated with the suburbs are reduced. I dont know...  

 

1. I have a link for you too, the PBS documentary Taken for a Ride, which explains in detail how GM was the main contributer to the death of the streetcars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob2bYUtxlxs

 

2. I didn't change my argument, the lack of oil will lead to price increases across the board and particularly be a harsh slap in the face to suburban lifestyle. And as far as the evil conspiracy, it happened after World War II, and it's over and done with for the most part, a few cities like Houston still insist and more and more sprawl but as you said it seems there has been a renewed focus on urban core as of late.

 

Good to debate with you.

[Purdueenginerd]

What innovation? I'm yet to see any results beyond an expensive electric car with a 40 mile range and a hydrogen fuel cell theory that has yet to produce anything. We've already seen with air prices immediate effects of what fuel prices do. I think it would be best if we were taxed heavier like European nations and faced a $6-$8 per gallon price, to really see a change in the way of thinking in this country.

 

Despite those prices, and heavy encouragement of mass transit, The amount of space consumed per person has more than doubled over the past 50 years in Europe. Sprawl has hit all the major cities of Europe as well. 

[livincinco]

To an extent this is happening in Houston. The inner loop property values are worth much, much more than suburban house prices, and there is a reason. Real estate value is based on location.

Absolutely, and that's why people move to the suburbs and will continue to do so.

[samagon]

Slick - you always portray this as if people are being sold a way of life that they will someday come to their senses and realize how wrong they have been. I'd argue that personal transportation and the suburban lifestyle are desired by many people. The idea that it's not sustainable assumes static technology.

Cities will continue to sprawl because that's what many people want. The idea that a dramatic rise in oil prices will drive people from their cars is a fallacy because its just as likely to drive innovation to reduce the impact of the increased prices.

The minute someone delivers an electric car that provides a range that allows a full day of driving without requiring a recharge at a competitive price, or a comparable innovation, the whole game changes. I would argue that the probability that happens in the next twenty years is high.

 

exactly. peak oil isn't about running out of oil, it's about other resources becoming cheaper than oil per unit. that happens not just because oil will continue to go up in price as costs to produce go up, that happens as new technologies will emerge that will make it an irrelevant resource.

 

the USA peak oil is a perfect example. costs to produce a bbl of oil from USA got more expensive that shipping it in from other locations. it wasn't like they didn't know that oil existed in shale, or that hydraulic fracturing methods didn't exist 30 years ago, it just cost way too much.

 

here's a somewhat relevant article on the cost of gasoline in various countries:

http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2013-02-13/highest-cheapest-gas-prices-by-country.html#slide1

 

an interesting note from the article above is gallons used per person per day. USA is over 1 gallon on average, china is .05 gallons. so if gas prices were to soar, it would still not impact China as greatly as it does/would us.

[august948]

What innovation? I'm yet to see any results beyond an expensive electric car with a 40 mile range and a hydrogen fuel cell theory that has yet to produce anything. We've already seen with air prices immediate effects of what fuel prices do. I think it would be best if we were taxed heavier like European nations and faced a $6-$8 per gallon price, to really see a change in the way of thinking in this country.

"What innovation?", said the farmer to Henry Ford. "I'm yet to see any results beyond an expensive horseless carriage with a 40 mile range and a gas tank."

[livincinco]

Slick - GM buying the streetcars is irrelevant to the argument because the rise of suburbia is what created the streetcars to begin with. We've gone through this before on another thread but the perfect example is the Heights. Developer creates suburb and builds streetcar to provide easy transit to that suburb. That all predates the streetcar conspiracy.

My point is that the same reasons that encouraged people to move to the Heights in the 20s exist and motivate people to move to the suburbs today and for all the talk about continued urbanization, there's been no consistent movement away from suburbanization.

[august948]

So 22% of the world's resources that the US uses all come from the US?

No, the US produces 22% of the world's GDP (the output). The resources that fuel that (the input) come from all over, though a lot comes directly from the US. If we could manage to use 25% of the world's resources and not produce anything at all we'd be kings indeed (for a while, at least).

[august948]

The people want it because of a systematic, methodical collusion between developers, General Motors, and the federal government. Sprawl didn't just show up out of thin air, it was all methodically planned out. The people that "want" it are just pawns in a much bigger game.

Wait a minute! You left out the military-industrial complex, Wall Street, the Federal Reserve, the Church (pick your favorite), the Bilderberg Group, the Illuminati, birthers, and aliens.

[mkultra25]

A relevant post from the Smithsonian's Paleofuture blog:

 

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/paleofuture/2013/04/nobody-walks-in-l-a-the-rise-of-cars-and-the-monorails-that-never-were/

 

I draw your attention to comment #7: "Light rail is the utopic dream of the communist." That dude needs to be on HAIF.

 

[Slick Vik]

So has anyone even watched the film? I feel the points have totally been ignored; instead of concern the answer is mostly disdain and we will do what we want to do.

[august948]

So has anyone even watched the film? I feel the points have totally been ignored; instead of concern the answer is mostly disdain and we will do what we want to do.

Is there a salient point that hasn't been discussed? I'm not sure watching a 10 year old film pushing a particular socioeconomic viewpoint is a worthwhile expenditure of time. I can tune into Fox News, CNN or MSNBC for that.

[livincinco]

I will watch it, I'm just not in a location where I can do so right now. As I mentioned earlier though, and maybe this is discussed in the film, the streetcars were a by-product of sprawl, so I'm not sure how you can argue that their elimination caused sprawl. I'm also curious to discuss some specific locations where sprawl has been curtailed, because I'm not aware of them.

[Slick Vik]

I will watch it, I'm just not in a location where I can do so right now. As I mentioned earlier though, and maybe this is discussed in the film, the streetcars were a by-product of sprawl, so I'm not sure how you can argue that their elimination caused sprawl. I'm also curious to discuss some specific locations where sprawl has been curtailed, because I'm not aware of them.

 

The scale of distance the streetcars went can not be compared to freeways, for the most part. The only cities I can think of that had enormous networks were LA and San Francisco/Oakland. Also, another side effect of replacing streetcars with buses and expansion of freeways is the pollution. If you look at a picture of Los Angeles 100 years ago, it looks like a beautiful place. Now, it looks like smog.

[august948]

If you look at a picture of Los Angeles 100 years ago, it looks like a beautiful place. Now, it looks like smog.

You're comparing LA of today (pop 3.7 million in 2010 census) with LA of 1913 (pop 319k in 1910 census).

[livincinco]

The scale of distance the streetcars went can not be compared to freeways, for the most part. The only cities I can think of that had enormous networks were LA and San Francisco/Oakland. Also, another side effect of replacing streetcars with buses and expansion of freeways is the pollution. If you look at a picture of Los Angeles 100 years ago, it looks like a beautiful place. Now, it looks like smog.

Agreed, but my point is that the desire to escape the city to move to a suburban environment existed prior to the widespread adoption of the automobile and the "streetcar conspiracy". Earlier, you asserted that desire was created by GM and other conspirators. The scale certainly increased due to the automobile, but the desire was there previously.

Regarding LA, the problem with your point is that smog has decreased significantly in Los Angeles in the last 40 years in spite of population increases. It is measurably better today than it was then and that's primarily due to innovation in the emission systems of modern cars. The Economist ran a very convincing article a few years ago arguing that the most effective reduction of emissions would be to incentivize people in lesser developed countries get rid of older cars and replace them with new efficient ones because of how dramatic the improvements have been in the last forty years.

My point is simply that cars will continue to get more efficient and will not go away, primarily because car manufacturers have an extremely selfish interest in making sure that happens. They have absolutely no reason not to push in that direction as aggressively as possible.

[Slick Vik]

Agreed, but my point is that the desire to escape the city to move to a suburban environment existed prior to the widespread adoption of the automobile and the "streetcar conspiracy". Earlier, you asserted that desire was created by GM and other conspirators. The scale certainly increased due to the automobile, but the desire was there previously.

Regarding LA, the problem with your point is that smog has decreased significantly in Los Angeles in the last 40 years in spite of population increases. It is measurably better today than it was then and that's primarily due to innovation in the emission systems of modern cars. The Economist ran a very convincing article a few years ago arguing that the most effective reduction of emissions would be to incentivize people in lesser developed countries get rid of older cars and replace them with new efficient ones because of how dramatic the improvements have been in the last forty years.

My point is simply that cars will continue to get more efficient and will not go away, primarily because car manufacturers have an extremely selfish interest in making sure that happens. They have absolutely no reason not to push in that direction as aggressively as possible.

 

Have you ever seen the film Who Killed the Electric Car? Until very recently, car manufacturers sabatoged their own electric car plans.

 

And also about LA, I was comparing to before even 40 years ago. I saw a picture where it looked like Mount Fuji; I don't think it will ever look like that again.

[august948]

Have you ever seen the film Who Killed the Electric Car? Until very recently, car manufacturers sabatoged their own electric car plans.

You really should spend a little less time in front of the tube and a little more in the real world. You won't be as susceptible to propaganda and one-sided storytelling that way.

[RedScare]

This is one of the funniest threads on HAIF in years. The ability of Slick to fling out various unrelated theories and suddenly conclude, "therefore, suburbs are doomed!", is hilarious! Keep it up, dude. I kinda would like to hear you explain why all these disparate events suddenly will make Houston fail, but whatever.

 

Next, will you tell us who was behind the 9/11 attacks?

[august948]

This is one of the funniest threads on HAIF in years. The ability of Slick to fling out various unrelated theories and suddenly conclude, "therefore, suburbs are doomed!", is hilarious! Keep it up, dude. I kinda would like to hear you explain why all these disparate events suddenly will make Houston fail, but whatever.

 

Next, will you tell us who was behind the 9/11 attacks?

Everyone knows it was GM.

[RedScare]

You think that is what bankrupted them?

[august948]

This is one of the funniest threads on HAIF in years. The ability of Slick to fling out various unrelated theories and suddenly conclude, "therefore, suburbs are doomed!", is hilarious! Keep it up, dude. I kinda would like to hear you explain why all these disparate events suddenly will make Houston fail, but whatever.

 

Next, will you tell us who was behind the 9/11 attacks?

If you spend all day watching doomsday documentaries and "exposes" without objectivity and then spend whatever other time you have talking with others who share your same garbled opinions your thinking tends to get a little muddled.

[august948]

You think that is what bankrupted them?

GM's bankruptcy was an elaborate hoax to throw off investigators looking into the Bilderberg connection to developers who wanted to build a parking garage on the site of the World Trade Center and the Illuminati connection to the same government backed developers who wanted to raze the Pentagon to build a suburban oasis.

[livincinco]

Have you ever seen the film Who Killed the Electric Car? Until very recently, car manufacturers sabatoged their own electric car plans.

And also about LA, I was comparing to before even 40 years ago. I saw a picture where it looked like Mount Fuji; I don't think it will ever look like that again.

I'm not saying that cars didn't cause air pollution in LA. I'm saying that innovation in the car industry has reduced the amount of air pollution dramatically. I'm also thinking that LA is a pretty bad example to use when talking about reducing sprawl. LA shows that exburbs suffer at a higher rate than urban areas.

Regarding the electric car, I haven't seen the movie, but I think that car companies motivations with electric cars are pretty simple. If they think they are a good investment, they will make them. If they don't, they won't. Toyota has been reasonably outspoken in saying that they aren't economically viable yet, but it's pretty tough to make an arguement that Toyota is surpressing innovation.

[livincinco]

BTW, we haven't even started on driver less cars, why they are going to happen within the next 20 years and how they're going to completely change transportation and urbanization!

[Slick Vik]

You really should spend a little less time in front of the tube and a little more in the real world. You won't be as susceptible to propaganda and one-sided storytelling that way.

I've seen more of the world than 99% of people. That gives me the open eyes to see the truth for what it is.

[Slick Vik]

If you spend all day watching doomsday documentaries and "exposes" without objectivity and then spend whatever other time you have talking with others who share your same garbled opinions your thinking tends to get a little muddled.

The guys that did these films put years of research into them.

[Slick Vik]

I'm not saying that cars didn't cause air pollution in LA. I'm saying that innovation in the car industry has reduced the amount of air pollution dramatically. I'm also thinking that LA is a pretty bad example to use when talking about reducing sprawl. LA shows that exburbs suffer at a higher rate than urban areas.

Regarding the electric car, I haven't seen the movie, but I think that car companies motivations with electric cars are pretty simple. If they think they are a good investment, they will make them. If they don't, they won't. Toyota has been reasonably outspoken in saying that they aren't economically viable yet, but it's pretty tough to make an arguement that Toyota is surpressing innovation.

Even then LA is still among the top cities in the country for smog year after year.

[august948]

I've seen more of the world than 99% of people. That gives me the open eyes to see the truth for what it is.

Travelogues don't count.