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Chi-Char-Hou-Dal

Hit and run pedestrian killed on McGowen last night - near Specs

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I hate to say it but the crowd going out to Midtown bars has gotten sketchier over the past few months. Loud, drunk people from other neighborhoods are starting fights, playing excessively loud music in their cars, and driving way too fast on crowded streets. For a while, Midtown was dominated by neighborhood bars but now kids are coming in from the burbs like they did on Washington. There are empty beer bottles in front of my place almost daily and there never used to be. Some of the visitors have no respect for the residents. Very sad to hear about this poor woman.

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True! And whats difficult is to get the property owner of the club/bar to show some respect to nearby residents by curtailing the rowdiness, fights, etc. Plus, getting the police to do anything about the noise (not from the club) but from the patrons is like pulling teeth. Only criminal violations count. No zoning really causes residents and business to fight each other. Why can't they (patrons) just come and go peacefully. 

 



True! And whats difficult is to get the property owner of the club/bar to show some respect to nearby residents by curtailing the rowdiness, fights, etc. Plus, getting the police to do anything about the noise (not from the club) but from the patrons is like pulling teeth. Only criminal violations count. No zoning really causes residents and business to fight each other. Why can't they (patrons) just come and go peacefully. 

 

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No zoning really causes residents and business to fight each other. Why can't they (patrons) just come and go peacefully. 

 

Really? Now no zoning is the cause of loud drunks? 

 

I think I have now heard it all.

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I feel your pain regarding the clientele of the neighborhood changing but agree with RedScare - you knew what Midtown was and is when you bought here and zoning would do nothing to change the fact that Midtown is a booming neighborhood that people want to be in.

 

The crowds will change, bars will come and go and life will go on.

 

Think of the alternative - empty blocks and low valued townhomes and real estate. Not to call anyone out; but on other threads complaining of the bars and noise next to their property, I don't hear people complaining about the town-home they bought for $275,000 now conservatively valued at $360,000

 

There is a red-brick townhome off bagby listed for 485K and it will probably bring something in that range - two new monstrous townhomes behind Metro Midtown just went up both option pending they were listed at 629K!!!

 

There's always a quiet cul-de-sac in Sealy where you will inherit a whole new set of gripes i.e. Nosy mothers, kids skateboarding on your curb,  HOA's, rules of what you can and can't do and general "Pleasentville flurf"

 

I put this link here bc I too was outraged at a hit and run and a lady dying in the street and didn't like that no one was talking about it. Who knows for all we know it could have been a car coming off 59 making their way through Midtown.

 

I love Midtown and all the change that's happening here and with all the new apartments and development I'm excited to see what it turns in to.

 

 

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Well said Chi-Char-Hou-Dal.

 

I often park on McGowen in the same location as this hit and run occurred, zoning would not resolve this issue, and I think it's probably a bad topic for discussion in this thread.

 

It was probably a combination of the people getting in their car not being aware of their surroundings (always look before stepping into the street).

 

And (most importantly) a person behind the wheel that not looking for pedestrians. The driver should have been way more cautious driving down McGowen, but likely was drunk enough to not think to pay attention, or was drunk enough to think he/she was paying attention and misjudged.

 

I hope this person is found and is never allowed behind the wheel of a vehicle again, not only did he/she (very likely) use bad judgment in driving drunk, but also fled the scene. horrible.

 

I hope police presence in the area is stepped up, a lot, especially between midnight and 3 am on weekends, it won't assure things like this never happen again, but it will reduce the likelihood that it will.

Edited by samagon

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Well, the point of my post was not zoning. Just that a lot of new people having been coming into Midtown lately and there has been a noticeable uptick in rowdiness, reckless driving, and polluting. I think it's a phase but may last a few years before Midtown becomes more of a local hangout again.

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Zoning...No zoning. I am certainly aware that complaining on this blog won't clean up the trash from my front yard, quiet the rowdiness or wake up tomorrow to a Zoned city . I live hear and just deal with it. I know i am right though that if Houston had zoning, then there wouldn't be a bar or club next to your house creating problems (trash, rowdiness,parking, etc) for residents. But getting back to the original complaint about OTC bar which is surrounded by town-homes and residents that had to deal with the disrespectful patrons from Union Bar. Clearly, zoning won't happen here in Houston. So residents and business must compromise at some point. Have your bar and drink, just keep it quiet and don't throw your trash on my front yard or anyone's for that matter! No one in the city/burbs... zoning/no zoning wants these kind of disturbances. 

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Clearly, zoning won't happen here in Houston. So residents and business must compromise at some point. Have your bar and drink, just keep it quiet and don't throw your trash on my front yard or anyone's for that matter! No one in the city/burbs... zoning/no zoning wants these kind of disturbances. 

Right, but how do you suggest making that compromise? I assume it is not the OTC owners or employees throwint their trash there or yelling on their walk to the car. How should they go about stopping people leaving their place from throwing trash?

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Don't know about the noise, but you could install some sprinklers around the perimeter of your yard and do your watering on Friday and Saturday nights, making sure to water the concrete around you as well.

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GINIMBY

(Glad it's....)

Another way of looking at it; Are the beer bottles half full, or half empty?

Midtown has always been a crossroad for all sorts of visitors. Before it was 3rd ward drug dealers, prostitutes, paroles, and panhandlers. Now it's relocated Washington Ave douchbags. All of the former go quietly into the night. The Washington dude-bro's like to scream out how drunk they are while relieving themselves on your property at 3am. Lots of luck...

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Don't know about the noise, but you could install some sprinklers around the perimeter of your yard and do your watering on Friday and Saturday nights, making sure to water the concrete around you as well.

 

Please don't encourage people to make sidewalks hostile to pedestrians.

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Please don't encourage people to make sidewalks hostile to pedestrians.

It's an extreme suggestion to meet an extreme situation. Not suggesting that it should be done during normal times, but when some of the pedestrians are behaving like this you've got to look at your options.

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Not sure it's an extreme situation.

 

I don't find it that hard to pick up trash someone has decided to dump in my yard. The bonus is I get to recycle it for them, rather than just throwing paper, glass, or plastic in the trash, or in the street, or in someone else's lawn (because my sprinklers are on), they throw it in mine, I pick it up and recycle it for them.

 

At my specific domicile I don't have to deal with this very often, maybe once a week someone is inconsiderate and doesn't dispose of their own crap, you might have to deal with it more.

 

You did hit the nail on the head, as it is an extreme solution, is it really worth turning on your sprinklers for multiple hours (and wasting who knows how much water and money in the process) to keep from having to bend down and grumble at someone being inconsiderate as you put their trash in the recycle bin?

 

And then it's likely not to stop anything, and you'll end up with soggy wet paper littering your yard that's even harder to clean up.

 

Does anyone know if the driver (killer) was caught?

Edited by samagon

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It's an extreme suggestion to meet an extreme situation. Not suggesting that it should be done during normal times, but when some of the pedestrians are behaving like this you've got to look at your options.

 

In case you forgot, this thread is about a pedestrian that was killed in the street. Call police if people are violating property rights, but don't try and reclaim public space as your own.

Edited by kylejack

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In case you forgot, this thread is about a pedestrian that was killed in the street. Call police if people are violating property rights, but don't try and reclaim public space as your own.

One of the earlier posters stated that the police can't or won't do anything about it. In that case you have to either look at alternate solutions or just put up with it (or move). I'm in favor of alternate solutions. If you don't fancy watering the concrete you could plant some nice thorny hedges instead.

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Please don't encourage people to make sidewalks hostile to pedestrians.

I'm not sure if you can consider water to be hostile. Is it assault-water? 10-gallon limit?

The only thing hostile would be the amount the city would charge you for it.

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I'm not sure if you can consider water to be hostile. Is it assault-water? 10-gallon limit?

The only thing hostile would be the amount the city would charge you for it.

 

Yes, spraying water on the sidewalk to discourage people from using it is hostile.

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Yes, spraying water on the sidewalk to discourage people from using it is hostile.

Water torture, I take it? Good heavens somebody get Amnesty International on the phone! Sigh..

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Water torture, I take it? Good heavens somebody get Amnesty International on the phone! Sigh..

 

The sidewalk is a public right-of-way. If you can't understand and accept that, maybe you shouldn't be living in a city full of other people.

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I'm not sure if you can consider water to be hostile. Is it assault-water? 10-gallon limit?

The only thing hostile would be the amount the city would charge you for it.

 

Well, now that you mention it...

 

 

Sec. 22.01.  ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1)  intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;

(2)  intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or

(3)  intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.

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ha. Lawyered. 

 

indeed, and it is interesting to note that if someone intentionally causes bodily injury to your spouse that you as well have been assaulted, but if they spray your significant other with water in an offensive manner, your significant other might have been assaulted, but you have not.

Edited by samagon
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indeed, and it is interesting to note that if someone intentionally causes bodily injury to your spouse that you as well have been assaulted, but if they spray your significant other with water in an offensive manner, your significant other might have been assaulted, but you have not.

 

huh?

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Well, now that you mention it...

Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;

(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or

(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.

So much for wet t-shirt night....

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So much for wet t-shirt night....

 

I think the law only applies if the person being sprayed finds it offensive, not if the young ladies are lined up wanting to be sprayed. I am curious, though, if there's any case law to support assault by water sprinkler.

Edited by august948

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indeed, and it is interesting to note that if someone intentionally causes bodily injury to your spouse that you as well have been assaulted, but if they spray your significant other with water in an offensive manner, your significant other might have been assaulted, but you have not.

 

Well, that would be interesting if true. However, the statute says that assault occurs if a person causes injury to his spouse. In some cultures it is not assault for a husband to beat his wife. The Texas assault statute makes clear that we do not subscribe to that culture.

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Well, that would be interesting if true. However, the statute says that assault occurs if a person causes injury to his spouse. In some cultures it is not assault for a husband to beat his wife. The Texas assault statute makes clear that we do not subscribe to that culture.

 

ahhh!!! I was reading it wrong.

 

I was reading it as if a person assaulted someone they were also assaulting the spouse. That makes perfect sense.

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Lots of cases found on Google with water hose assault. http://law.rightpundits.com/?p=582

Eh, that's a case where the guy went after his wife with a water hose and then elbowed her. If you stood there by the faucet and turned on the water every time someone passed, there might be a case, but I'm thinking it'd be hard to prove intent if you just turned your sprinklers on for a few hours and you just happened to choose Saturday nights to water your lawn.

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Eh, that's a case where the guy went after his wife with a water hose and then elbowed her. If you stood there by the faucet and turned on the water every time someone passed, there might be a case, but I'm thinking it'd be hard to prove intent if you just turned your sprinklers on for a few hours and you just happened to choose Saturday nights to water your lawn.

 

Water your lawn all you want. But spraying water on the sidewalk to intentionally reclaim a public right-of-way that is not yours to reclaim is arrogant and dangerous. It's not "you just happened to choose Saturday nights", you are recommending for people to intentionally choose that day and time. There is no "just happened to" about it.

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Lots of cases found on Google with water hose assault. http://law.rightpundits.com/?p=582

No one is going to argue against a water hose being a weapon of assault. (1960's Alabama anyone?)

A light sprinkle from a motion activated sprinkler is just going to make someone get out of the way. No one is suggesting that you respond like some jug head who has been told their schools will be integrated.

Edited by TGM

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I don't actually care about the legal case to be made for assault, but I do consider any unwanted touching to be an assault, regardless of the legal definition.

 

No, my problem is with people thinking they have the right to reclaim public space.

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Water your lawn all you want. But spraying water on the sidewalk to intentionally reclaim a public right-of-way that is not yours to reclaim is arrogant and dangerous. It's not "you just happened to choose Saturday nights", you are recommending for people to intentionally choose that day and time. There is no "just happened to" about it.

Am I reclaiming the street when my run-off water hits the curb?

If he were to block off the section of sidewalk that runs in front of his house with say a orange warning come, then you might be able to argue that. Ditto for yellow caution tape. If I recall correctly property owners are responsible for maintaining sidewalks and curbs. (That was what the city always told us) He could perform maintenance on his section, insuring that it remains off-limits until the construction is complete.

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Water your lawn all you want. But spraying water on the sidewalk to intentionally reclaim a public right-of-way that is not yours to reclaim is arrogant and dangerous. It's not "you just happened to choose Saturday nights", you are recommending for people to intentionally choose that day and time. There is no "just happened to" about it.

I'm not thinking about it as a case where you are trying to reclaim public right of way, just trying to mitigate rudeness from particular pedestrians at a particular time and place. Maybe watering just to the edge of your lawn would be sufficient deterrent.

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Am I reclaiming the street when my run-off water hits the curb?

If he were to block off the section of sidewalk that runs in front of his house with say a orange warning come, then you might be able to argue that. Ditto for yellow caution tape. If I recall correctly property owners are responsible for maintaining sidewalks and curbs. (That was what the city always told us) He could perform maintenance on his section, insuring that it remains off-limits until the construction is complete.

 

You want to talk about laws and I want to talk about ethics, so I don't see how we're going to make any progress.

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You want to talk about laws and I want to talk about ethics, so I don't see how we're going to make any progress.

The party goers have a right to the sidewalk and conversation. Is it ethical to be loud and obnoxious at 2am?

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The party goers have a right to the sidewalk and conversation. Is it ethical to be loud and obnoxious at 2am?

 

No, nor is it ethical to punish all pedestrians for the actions of certain pedestrians.

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No, nor is it ethical to punish all pedestrians for the actions of certain pedestrians.

A decibel and/or glass breakage sensor will see to it that no innocent, cherubic pedestrians are punished by mistake. Would this appease the committee of PC anxiety and hand-wringing?

Edited by TGM
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It's the result of the never ending friction of private property owner interests vs. the maternal instincts of those who seek to insure that the concrete and asphalt public right of ways are enjoyed to the maximum by those without a voice or a HAIF account. It's also a good chuckle.

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It's the result of the never ending friction of private property owner interests vs. the maternal instincts of those who seek to insure that the concrete and asphalt public right of ways are enjoyed to the maximum by those without a voice or a HAIF account. It's also a good chuckle.

I thought the problem was those with a little TOO much voice. At 2am. Outside your window. ;)

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I thought the problem was those with a little TOO much voice. At 2am. Outside your window. ;)

Not outside my window. I no longer have the joy of hearing drunk renditions of Sweet Caroline outside my windows at 2am.

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banning high capacity water hoses will certainly help protect the innocent walkers by at 2am. So that should be an easy target.

 

Anyway, perhaps a 10' cinderblock wall would help reduce noise pollution, as well as trash being thrown into the yard, although it might be worth it to install a net that goes even higher to help reduce the possibility of some coordinated drinker being able to loft a solo cup over the 10' fence.

 

As a matter of deterrence that isn't an unsightly wall. Perhaps a large spotlight that is sound activated, or a grid of lasers that recognize when something has been wantonly tossed on the lawn that sets off alarm klaxons and strobes and perhaps a recorded message that asks them to kindly pick up their trash and throw it in the appropriate receptacle? I'm imagining it would be not unlike those smoke alarms used in large office buildings.

 

Not outside my window. I no longer have the joy of hearing drunk renditions of Sweet Caroline outside my windows at 2am.

 

if you feel that this joy is missing, you can PM me your address and for a small fee, I can help you capture this joy yet again.

 

This entire post was very much in jest, except the alarm klaxons and strobe lights, that would be cool.

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banning high capacity water hoses will certainly help protect the innocent walkers by at 2am. So that should be an easy target.

How about a registry and waiting period? With the size of lawns in Midtown no one needs more than one hose, and a very small one at that. Then again hoses don't kill people, nozzles do.

klaxons and strobes and perhaps a recorded message

Klaxons. I think I liked this post simply because you used Klaxon in a sentence.

if you feel that this joy is missing, you can PM me your address and for a small fee, I can help you capture this joy yet again.

Sorry, but I'm chock full of dealing with thieving urban wildlife.

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This entire post was very much in jest, except the alarm klaxons and strobe lights, that would be cool.

 

Stobe lights!  That would be cool.

 

Actually, maybe the best solution is to set up a desk in the front lawn and charge the drunks for 'admitance' to the party.  You might make a killing. :)

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I for one welcome the new businesses and activity in Midtown, but I also welcome things like the Safe Passing Ordinance that was just passed in Council today, better law enforcement, better signage and developements that will help cater more to pedestrians.  IMO Accidents like this have much less to do with zoning and much more to do with the fact that Midtown is a network of very busy, very wide one-way streets that people think they can drag race on. 

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I think one of the next things to be done is to lower the speed limit in certain areas at night. 30mph during the day is pushing it in Midtown by Bagby, but at night, 10mph is pushing it for safety. 

 

A couple of cops walking the beat the old fashion way would be awesome as well.

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