METRO Works To Make Bus System Easier To Use

[RedScare]

If you can provide me with an example of a BRT line in the US that has higher ridership than a similar rail line, then I'll change my stance.  

 

I am not interested in changing your stance. I am simply pointing out that your stance has zero chance of becoming reality. That is all well and good in your fantasy world (and Vic's), but for those of us in real-life Houston, where we don't have the billion dollars or so needed to build your fantasy rail, I am suggesting that METRO consider BRT as a placeholder until that funding shows up in a couple of decades.

[mfastx]

I am not interested in changing your stance. I am simply pointing out that your stance has zero chance of becoming reality. That is all well and good in your fantasy world (and Vic's), but for those of us in real-life Houston, where we don't have the billion dollars or so needed to build your fantasy rail, I am suggesting that METRO consider BRT as a placeholder until that funding shows up in a couple of decades.

 

There are plenty of ways to get the funding.  Look at what the mayor of LA is doing.  If mayor Parker makes it a goal to get the University Line built, then she can find a way to get it built. 

 

The reason why I'm opposed to using BRT as a placeholder is that it has a high potential to be a permanent placeholder.  If METRO builds BRT instead of rail on the University line, and upgrades it to rail in a few decades, how much money are we talking here?  Billions, surely.  I'm just not sure we should invest all of that money in a single corridor.  I'd rather wait a little extra time and build it right.  And while we're waiting, build BRT along other corridors.  Who knows, maybe the University Line falls under METRO's "reimagining" scheme, perhaps METRO has other plans in store for that corridor.

[Slick Vik]

I am not interested in changing your stance. I am simply pointing out that your stance has zero chance of becoming reality. That is all well and good in your fantasy world (and Vic's), but for those of us in real-life Houston, where we don't have the billion dollars or so needed to build your fantasy rail, I am suggesting that METRO consider BRT as a placeholder until that funding shows up in a couple of decades.

 

Categorically false as far as TXDOT funds are concerned at least. They are technically allowed to use any of their funds on mass transit, but for the most part, simply choose not to do so. Also, METRO had billions TWICE, 1983 and 1991, but an election and a referendum of a former highway commissioner killed off those propositions. I agree that after the last referendum without some miraculous federal funding the university and uptown lines have no hope of getting built. BUT, our fantasy world is simply a real world anywhere that's not Houston or San Antonio or some other town full of good ol boy politicians. If the political will was there these things would get built.

[RedScare]

Umm...OK?      

[august948]

Categorically false as far as TXDOT funds are concerned at least. They are technically allowed to use any of their funds on mass transit, but for the most part, simply choose not to do so. Also, METRO had billions TWICE, 1983 and 1991, but an election and a referendum of a former highway commissioner killed off those propositions. I agree that after the last referendum without some miraculous federal funding the university and uptown lines have no hope of getting built. BUT, our fantasy world is simply a real world anywhere that's not Houston or San Antonio or some other town full of good ol boy politicians. If the political will was there these things would get built.

So here we have an example of a thirty year lack of interest and political will to put in a rail network. Perhaps it's time, then, that "Metro works to make the bus system easier to use"?

[mfastx]

So here we have an example of a thirty year lack of interest and political will to put in a rail network. Perhaps it's time, then, that "Metro works to make the bus system easier to use"?

 

True, but remember that just because there isn't political will, there is the will of the majority that have approved numerous rail systems since the 1980s.  Therefore, METRO is required per their referendum to not only make improvements to bus service, but to also build the rail lines that were approved in 2003.

[august948]

True, but remember that just because there isn't political will, there is the will of the majority that have approved numerous rail systems since the 1980s.  Therefore, METRO is required per their referendum to not only make improvements to bus service, but to also build the rail lines that were approved in 2003.

The "will of the majority" hasn't amounted to much over the last 30 years. You have to ask yourself, "Why is that?"

[mfastx]

The "will of the majority" hasn't amounted to much over the last 30 years. You have to ask yourself, "Why is that?"

 

Yeah I know, and I think it's a damn shame. 

[Slick Vik]

The "will of the majority" hasn't amounted to much over the last 30 years. You have to ask yourself, "Why is that?"

Politics

[august948]

Politics

Perhaps. Or perhaps the "majority" don't really care all that much about a rail system.

[JamesL]

Y'all have to be specific when you're talking about BRT because the term has come to mean so many things. If you're actually talking RAPID transit then that implies a dedicated lane and all the same property acquisition and street reconstruction as light rail. Chances are the savings over LRT wouldn't be substantial. If you just mean limited stop buses then yeah, that will be cheaper. It also won't be rapid.

[Slick Vik]

Perhaps. Or perhaps the "majority" don't really care all that much about a rail system.

 

No, it's politics. As was stated before, the majority have twice voted for systems, in the late 80's and in 2003. But each time political forces have stepped in to kill, or heavily damage the planned systems. If the majority's voice doesn't matter, and you're okay with it, I suspect you also supported Suddam Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi, and other dictators.

[august948]

No, it's politics. As was stated before, the majority have twice voted for systems, in the late 80's and in 2003. But each time political forces have stepped in to kill, or heavily damage the planned systems. If the majority's voice doesn't matter, and you're okay with it, I suspect you also supported Suddam Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi, and other dictators.

Maybe a majority of the voters who voted that day voted for these proposals, but if there was truly a majority of all Houstonians who cared about this the political leaders would have caved in a minute. Most people in the Houston area don't care enough about having a rail system to bother holding the political leadership accountable.

Funny you should mention Hussein et al. If you truly want rail done regardless of any other consideration, they'd be the people you'd want to support. After all, Mussolini did make the trains run on time.

[RedScare]

Wait...no comparisons to Hitler? What the hell's going on here?

[Slick Vik]

Maybe a majority of the voters who voted that day voted for these proposals, but if there was truly a majority of all Houstonians who cared about this the political leaders would have caved in a minute. Most people in the Houston area don't care enough about having a rail system to bother holding the political leadership accountable.

Funny you should mention Hussein et al. If you truly want rail done regardless of any other consideration, they'd be the people you'd want to support. After all, Mussolini did make the trains run on time.

 

Again, you're stating that the votes of the people do not matter. Doesn't sound like democracy to me. How you were able to twist this into me supporting dictatorship is a hilarious attempt at turning the buck around.

 

And to add to your first point, what do you expect people to do? The situation in this country at this point is one that makes anyone who protests look like a crazy person. Look at occupy wall street, they all got evicted out of their camps by the police. However, 40 years ago, there were mass protests all around the country against the Vietnam war. The situation has changed.

 

And finally, politicians do what is best for themselves, they don't care about the average joe. Look at wealth inequality.

[Pleak]

Again, you're stating that the votes of the people do not matter. Doesn't sound like democracy to me. How you were able to twist this into me supporting dictatorship is a hilarious attempt at turning the buck around.

 

And to add to your first point, what do you expect people to do? The situation in this country at this point is one that makes anyone who protests look like a crazy person. Look at occupy wall street, they all got evicted out of their camps by the police. However, 40 years ago, there were mass protests all around the country against the Vietnam war. The situation has changed.

 

And finally, politicians do what is best for themselves, they don't care about the average joe. Look at wealth inequality.

 

You missed global warming,  the Gulf war,  the clubbing of baby seals and the heartbreak of psoriasis.

 

And ows was a bunch of whiny kids who  majored in “fun” stuff in college instead of boring practical majors where you could actually get a job.  And they loaded up on debt to fund their little party then crapped bricks when they realized they had to pay them back and couldn’t get a decent job with their History degree.    If you take out $100k in loans for a journalism degree,  you just need to have your head examined.   Instead of just evicting them,   the police should have shipped every one of them to North Dakota.   As soon as they got off the plane,  each and every one of them could have got a $60k a year job as an entry level roughneck.      But that would have meant they would have actually had to WORK for a living instead of whine about  the injustice of it all in front of a camera and then go back to living in their parents basement and trolling the internet complaining.

 

What makes people look crazy is their irrational fetishes.   Like the inability to see that there are other perfectly good forms of transportation besides rail.   Everybody on this board probably likes rail.   But most (some?) of them are rational and understand that it is extremely expensive,  fairly rigid, and is not the panacea that you make it out to be.   It is part of a system,  and if rest of the system is not functioning – why should billions be thrown away for your personal jollies?  

Metro needs to get its internal house in order,  get the lines it is building up and running smoothly,  expand the bus system and make it a smooth running machine (this could be done easily – all it takes is the will to do it) and show Houston and the feds that the crap is all in the past.     Basically,   Metro has failed on execution for so many years,  they will need to prove themselves for several years now -  if they do so,  and ridership on all forms goes up  - I bet a lot of the arguments for rail expansion would go away.

 

Oh,  and as far as your little “people have spoken”  argument.    They also spoke when they elected Lanier as mayor for three straight terms.  He basically ran on a “I will kill the rail system”   platform.    And he is one politician who actually kept a campaign promise.    

[IHB2]

Again, you're stating that the votes of the people do not matter. Doesn't sound like democracy to me...Look at occupy wall street, they all got evicted out of their camps by the police. However, 40 years ago, there were mass protests all around the country against the Vietnam war. The situation has changed...And finally, politicians do what is best for themselves, they don't care about the average joe. Look at wealth inequality.

 

I can see why you feel like you're constantly swimming upsteam in the reddest of all states. You're lucky Ted Cruz hasn't called for your immediate rendition & waterboarding 

[august948]

Again, you're stating that the votes of the people do not matter. Doesn't sound like democracy to me. How you were able to twist this into me supporting dictatorship is a hilarious attempt at turning the buck around.

 

And to add to your first point, what do you expect people to do? The situation in this country at this point is one that makes anyone who protests look like a crazy person. Look at occupy wall street, they all got evicted out of their camps by the police. However, 40 years ago, there were mass protests all around the country against the Vietnam war. The situation has changed.

 

And finally, politicians do what is best for themselves, they don't care about the average joe. Look at wealth inequality.

What I'm saying is that politicians of all stripes do what is best for themselves and their cronies unless they perceive that a large enough majority is against them that they might lose the next election. And, in this case, they didn't/don't perceive that a majority of voters really care all that much about having a rail system.

I'm sure it's frustrating to realize that the majority of people just really don't give a hoot about things you hold near and dear, but that's life.

[Slick Vik]

You missed global warming,  the Gulf war,  the clubbing of baby seals and the heartbreak of psoriasis.

 

And ows was a bunch of whiny kids who  majored in “fun” stuff in college instead of boring practical majors where you could actually get a job.  And they loaded up on debt to fund their little party then crapped bricks when they realized they had to pay them back and couldn’t get a decent job with their History degree.    If you take out $100k in loans for a journalism degree,  you just need to have your head examined.   Instead of just evicting them,   the police should have shipped every one of them to North Dakota.   As soon as they got off the plane,  each and every one of them could have got a $60k a year job as an entry level roughneck.      But that would have meant they would have actually had to WORK for a living instead of whine about  the injustice of it all in front of a camera and then go back to living in their parents basement and trolling the internet complaining.

 

What makes people look crazy is their irrational fetishes.   Like the inability to see that there are other perfectly good forms of transportation besides rail.   Everybody on this board probably likes rail.   But most (some?) of them are rational and understand that it is extremely expensive,  fairly rigid, and is not the panacea that you make it out to be.   It is part of a system,  and if rest of the system is not functioning – why should billions be thrown away for your personal jollies?  

Metro needs to get its internal house in order,  get the lines it is building up and running smoothly,  expand the bus system and make it a smooth running machine (this could be done easily – all it takes is the will to do it) and show Houston and the feds that the crap is all in the past.     Basically,   Metro has failed on execution for so many years,  they will need to prove themselves for several years now -  if they do so,  and ridership on all forms goes up  - I bet a lot of the arguments for rail expansion would go away.

 

Oh,  and as far as your little “people have spoken”  argument.    They also spoke when they elected Lanier as mayor for three straight terms.  He basically ran on a “I will kill the rail system”   platform.    And he is one politician who actually kept a campaign promise.    

 

1. Your generalization of everyone who participated in OWS is a rambling rant. For you to ignore that it's more difficult to get a job these days for college graduates then it has been in the last 3 generalizations is selective arguing. This is the first generation in some time that will have less wealth than the one before it.

 

2. There are other forms of transportation besides rail, but rail is the most efficient one. It does have a high initial cost, but its efficiency and attractiveness to people is unquestioned, and as gas goes higher it will only attract more riders. If you think I'm wrong, look at nearly EVERY major city around the world. I agree that it's part of the system, but it's the base of any good system. I do agree that METRO has a lot of work to do to regain trust of people and the feds, however the people screwed METRO over with the last referendum as well. That was their chance to have something built but instead we'll be on hold for a decade, if not more.

 

3. The reason Lanier won his first election was a report by Wayne Delcefino on Sylvester Turner, which turned out to be false. Turner was leading and expected to win, but that report killed his chances and destroyed any large ambition of his political career. Had Lanier not won that election, a monorail system would've been built. Perhaps Lanier would've won later, but it would've been too late to stop it at that point.  

 

4. You ask why should billions be thrown towards rail, I ask you why should billion be thrown at freeways? It's a hypocrisy here that any time a penny goes towards rail there is a gargantuan outcry, but highway projects get built without a peep from anyone. People are muppets.

[Slick Vik]

I can see why you feel like you're constantly swimming upsteam in the reddest of all states. You're lucky Ted Cruz hasn't called for your immediate rendition & waterboarding 

 

This state was blue for a very long time until fairly recently. And soon, it will become blue again. Every day a hillbilly dies off, and a hispanic is born. The tide is turning. It already has on a national level.

[Slick Vik]

What I'm saying is that politicians of all stripes do what is best for themselves and their cronies unless they perceive that a large enough majority is against them that they might lose the next election. And, in this case, they didn't/don't perceive that a majority of voters really care all that much about having a rail system.

I'm sure it's frustrating to realize that the majority of people just really don't give a hoot about things you hold near and dear, but that's life.

 

I agree but it's sad that people vote for something to happen, only for it to not happen. This kind of thing happens in the third world, it's not supposed to happen here.

[musicman]

There are plenty of ways to get the funding.  Look at what the mayor of LA is doing.  If mayor Parker makes it a goal to get the University Line built, then she can find a way to get it built. 

 

Name 3 realistic ways to get funding, especially with the METRO board itself declaring the Richmond rail dead for at least a decade.

METRO has wasted 60 to 100 million on the richmond line and has zero to show for that expenditure.

Mayor Parker's only goal is to get fat Houstonians to lose weight.

[Slick Vik]

Name 3 realistic ways to get funding, especially with the METRO board itself declaring the Richmond rail dead for at least a decade.

METRO has wasted 60 to 100 million on the richmond line and has zero to show for that expenditure.

Mayor Parker's only goal is to get fat Houstonians to lose weight.

 

I would bet a rail will get built before fat Houstonians, which are the majority, get skinny. And I would say the main reason the university line never got started is the stalling tactics of one John Culberson via Afton Oaks, and at this point, he won.

[musicman]

I would bet a rail will get built before fat Houstonians, which are the majority, get skinny. And I would say the main reason the university line never got started is the stalling tactics of one John Culberson via Afton Oaks, and at this point, he won.

I think you're giving John Culberson more credit than he deserves. METRO's incompetancy did the line in.

[IHB2]

This state was blue for a very long time until fairly recently..

 

so true, but that was before the national Dems passed that pesky Voting Rights Act and most of those good ol' southern blues began migrating to red  (sorry, so off topic. I'll stop now)

[Slick Vik]

I think you're giving John Culberson more credit than he deserves. METRO's incompetancy did the line in.

 

It was a mix of both, but had there been no resistance the line would've gone down westheimer through highland village, making afton oaks a non-issue. So Culberson's and afton oaks' reaction was a secondary reaction to highland village protests. If there was no resistance period it would be hard to say that at this point ten years later that construction would have at least started.

[august948]

This state was blue for a very long time until fairly recently. And soon, it will become blue again. Every day a hillbilly dies off, and a hispanic is born. The tide is turning. It already has on a national level.

I'm going to take a wild guess here that you aren't old enough to remember that Texas has never really been "blue" and that folks were seriously discussing the demise of the national Democratic party in the mid-eighties.

[musicman]

It was a mix of both, but had there been no resistance the line would've gone down westheimer through highland village, making afton oaks a non-issue. So Culberson's and afton oaks' reaction was a secondary reaction to highland village protests. If there was no resistance period it would be hard to say that at this point ten years later that construction would have at least started.

if if if......fact, METRO is incompetent.

It would really help to keep the discussion in the present. The Richmond line is dead.

[Slick Vik]

if if if......fact, METRO is incompetent.

It would really help to keep the discussion in the present. The Richmond line is dead.

 

For you to simply ignore highland village, john culberson, and afton oaks' in the demise of the line is convenient for your argument. Their stalling tactics in the end hurt the line more than METRO. Does it make you happy to see that the line is dead? It sounds like it.

[musicman]

there's no argument. the line is dead as is the uptown line. METRO dropped the ball on that one too.