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What Are The Odds These Will All Be Built?


Downtown Projects  

90 members have voted

  1. 1. Which will get built?

    • 609 Main (Hines)
      79
    • Capitol Tower (Skanska)
      51
    • Linbeck Market Square project
      27
    • New Chevron tower
      73
    • 5 Allen Center (Brookfield)
      16
    • Foley's / Americana blocks (Hilcorp Ventures)
      43
    • 6 Houston Center (Crescent)
      4


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It's not new construction, so not on the list, but I think the project that is potentially most at risk is the redevelopment of the Exxon Building.  The location is suboptimal, tunnel connections would be expensive to build, there will be no lead tenant, and the structure may need some (very expensive) asbestos remediation.  On top of all that, Exxon won't fully vacate until starting in 2015, by which time a lot of these other Class A buildings would have come online.  All it takes is one downturn and this can become a huge white elephant.  It is easy to see a scenario where it remains vacant for decades, like its neighbor the Heaven on Earth Inn. 

 

But it's even easier to see a scenario where the exact opposite happens and they move forward as planned.

 

Btw Hines is in extended negotiations with a large lead tenant for 609, as if that wasn't already fairly obvious.

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  • 1 month later...

From Houston Business Journal - 

 

 

What Hines' new downtown skyscraper means for other tower timelines

After Hines released the timeline for its next downtown tower, other developers with proposals are remaining quiet — planning their next strategic move to get another on the ground.

It’s uncertain at this point if other developers with proposals are moving forward on spec or with secured pre-leasing.

New York-based Skanska USA Commercial Development announced plans for its Capitol Tower, a 34-story office structure, designed by San Francisco-based Gensler’s Houston office, with 700,000 square feet. It is the former site of the Houston Club at 811 Rusk and is bounded by Main, Clay, Fannin and Bell.

“Construction timing will depend on market conditions,” Mike Mair, executive vice president and regional manager of Skanska, said after the Hines announcement.

Dallas-based Stream Realty Partners LP’s Houston office and Houston-based Essex Commercial Properties have a 750,000-square-foot structure in the works in a downtown lot bounded by Preston, Prairie, Milam and Travis. Essex is affiliated with Houston-based Linbeck Group.

After the Hines announcement, Stream said the company is “still excited” about its project and is “working on it;” however it was not ready to announce anything.

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/breaking-ground/2013/10/what-hines-new-building-means-for.html?page=2

 

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Of all the space downtown, why are developers honing in on a particular section? Southeast downtown is begging for development.

 

 

You're right, but most of the office is concentrating in the northeast part.

 

Here are the current high-rise developments according to the Downtown Houston development map, dividing downtown at Main Street Square:

 

Southeast:

3 highrise residential

(Plus the possible high rise hotel addition to GreenStreet)

 

Southwest:

3 highrise office towers under development

2 highrise office towers under redevelopment

1 highrise hotel under redevelopment

 

Northwest:

2 highrise office towers under development

2 highrise residential under development

1 highrise hotel under redevelopment

1 highrise office building under redevelopment

 

Northeast:

2 highrise office buildings under development

3 highrise hotels under development

1 highrise residential under development

1 highrise residential under redevelopment

Edited by Houston19514
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Here are the current high-rise developments according to the Downtown Houston development map, dividing downtown at Main Street Square:

 

Southeast:

3 highrise residential

(Plus the possible high rise hotel addition to GreenStreet)

 

Southwest:

3 highrise office towers under development

2 highrise office towers under redevelopment

1 highrise hotel under redevelopment

 

Northwest:

2 highrise office towers under development

2 highrise residential under development

1 highrise hotel under redevelopment

1 highrise office building under redevelopment

 

Northeast:

2 highrise office buildings under development

3 highrise hotels under development

1 highrise residential under development

1 highrise residential under redevelopment

 

Probably could have just posted the map. ;-)  Dividing downtown into 4 quadrants at Main Street Square seems misleading, as it would for example put the 806 Main renovation in the "northwest" on par with the stuff on Market Square, which doesn't really seem right.

Edited by H-Town Man
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Probably could have just posted the map. ;-)  Dividing downtown into 4 quadrants at Main Street Square seems misleading, as it would for example put the 806 Main renovation in the "northwest" on par with the stuff on Market Square, which doesn't really seem right.

 

So sorry.  I guess even the ever-so-slight honing in on a particular section of downtown that could be discerned from my suggested division of downtown was exaggerated.   Thank you for helping to demonstrate the silliness of treblelino's complaint about developers honing in on a particular section of downtown.

Edited by Houston19514
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So sorry.  I guess even the ever-so-slight honing in on a particular section of downtown that could be discerned from my suggested division of downtown was exaggerated.   Thank you for helping to demonstrate the silliness of treblelino's complaint about developers honing in on a particular section of downtown.

 

I don't really follow your second sentence. As far as treblelino, he wasn't really complaining, and I think his point was legitimate, at least as far as office development - I count four new buildings that aren't additions to an existing campus and so could have been anywhere, and three of them are on the north side. You spend too much time trying to bully people.

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why would additions to an existing campus be any sort of qualifier? building development is building development.

 

Because it's not like the people who own Allen Center or Houston Center are going to develop a building on the other side of downtown.  But they will try to develop something to capture some of the growth. So I think buildings that are independent of any existing campus are a better indicator of where the hot area is.

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Dude, he specifically clarified that he was speaking of office and residential development.  If taking people at their word is bullying.  Again, I plead guilty.

 

(But even apart from residential development, until you added the previously unheard qualifier about developments apart from campuses, the idea that office developments are honing in on a particular section of downtown was/is demonstrably silly.)

 

I think the qualifier is sound. The fact that office developers who have no previous anchoring in a certain area are mainly concentrating on the north end is an indicator that the north end is hotter than the other sides of downtown.

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I'm pretty confident about this one too (as in <75% likelihood). I think the order of likelihood for the various major towers not being built for specific tenants getting completed are...

1. 609 Main (Hines)

2. Capitol Tower (Skanska) 

3. 6 Houston Center

4. International Tower (Stream/Essex)

5. 5 Allen Center

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I'm pretty confident about this one too (as in <75% likelihood). I think the order of likelihood for the various major towers not being built for specific tenants getting completed are...

1. 609 Main (Hines)

2. Capitol Tower (Skanska) 

3. 6 Houston Center

4. International Tower (Stream/Essex)

5. 5 Allen Center

I'd love to see #4 at #1, but I agree with you. Not a big fan of #3, but it would certainly be better than what's there now for sure.

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http://houston.culturemap.com/news/real-estate/01-28-14-major-oil-company-quietly-downsizes-its-downtown-operations-as-an-iconic-tower-is-revamped/

 

I doubt anymore office buildings are in the works for downtown. Shanksa may build theirs, but this is probably the last to slip in.

 

No way Allen 5, Houston 6, or International Tower get built unless the differentials favor Class A so heavily compared to the availability of Class A...

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I'm pretty confident about this one too (as in <75% likelihood). I think the order of likelihood for the various major towers not being built for specific tenants getting completed are...

1. 609 Main (Hines)

2. Capitol Tower (Skanska) 

3. 6 Houston Center

4. International Tower (Stream/Essex)

5. 5 Allen Center

 

How likely now? There will have to be alot of companies pining to get into downtown for this tower to work:

 

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/real-estate/01-28-14-major-oil-company-quietly-downsizes-its-downtown-operations-as-an-iconic-tower-is-revamped/

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http://houston.culturemap.com/news/real-estate/01-28-14-major-oil-company-quietly-downsizes-its-downtown-operations-as-an-iconic-tower-is-revamped/

I doubt anymore office buildings are in the works for downtown. Shanksa may build theirs, but this is probably the last to slip in.

No way Allen 5, Houston 6, or International Tower get built unless the differentials favor Class A so heavily compared to the availability of Class A...

Not that I'm a fan of 6 HC, they too look like they are going to slip into this next wave of office space. According to Central Houston, they have construction documents in completed, so presumably they can start work whenever they want. They also don't have to go through the lengthy process of demoing buildings on site, just ripping up a parking lot.

What will be interesting will be to see is how downtown deals with all the "new"(including all the upcoming renovations" space over the next few years. They don't really seem to have any pull in the current tenant market, but maybe rising office rents and gridlock on the roads in the suburban employment centers makes it attractive once more? That or they push outside the Grand Parkway I guess.

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Will it be a nice little urban area though with 40+ stories of glass looming over it?  Think about it.

Lets see thousands of workers . eatting at niko niko, batanga.. fusion taco.. Hundreds going out after work to have drinks at okra, bad news, gun and goro  or a dozen others... wwith walking distance... Those that can afford it ling in hines proposed highraise for the simple reason their job will be right across the street ?

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Lets see thousands of workers . eatting at niko niko, batanga.. fusion taco.. Hundreds going out after work to have drinks at okra, bad news, gun and goro  or a dozen others... wwith walking distance... Those that can afford it ling in hines proposed highraise for the simple reason their job will be right across the street ?

 

While I would have prefered another redis I will take a tower over a parking lot anyday

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I contemplated whether or not to post this - we own in midtown and go out downtown a lot! My job took me west this week and I work with Air LIQUIDE - thy recently announced they are. Holding a 20 story campus in EC - man I know I'm gonna catch heat but - couldn't any of those companies build move DT ? I literally flew home all week on the Katy tollway but how long is that possible? Anyway probably not the best topic to post this but the wind has been taken out of my DT loving sails - someone pick me up...

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Lets see thousands of workers . eatting at niko niko, batanga.. fusion taco.. Hundreds going out after work to have drinks at okra, bad news, gun and goro  or a dozen others... wwith walking distance... Those that can afford it ling in hines proposed highraise for the simple reason their job will be right across the street ?

Market Square is already going to have a 40 story residential "looming over it"...

While I would have prefered another redis I will take a tower over a parking lot anyday

And just a block away there's a 72 story building lol.

 

Classic haif pile-on, I love it. 

 

mfastx that 75 story building is three blocks away and doesn't loom over Market Square at all. But its looming presence hasn't exactly done wonders for street life along Texas Ave., so I wonder what your point is?

 

cloud713 I thought your response was the strongest, but the 40 story tower is only half a block wide, not a full block, and will probably present a more interesting facade than the expanses of glass on the International Tower. So I'm not as concerned about it.

 

Moore713, that is a very optimistic picture. I don't think though that just the presence of many workers in an office tower guarantees that they'll all go down to the street below and foster urban life. All else being equal, yes it is good to have lots of workers in close proximity, but there is a danger in brutalizing the space.

 

Classic example of brutalizing a space by the way is the Tour Montparnasse, which so overwhelmed the neighborhood below it that two years later Paris passed a law banning all buildings over 7 stories anywhere in the central city. The Montparnasse neighborhood never fully recovered its charm, although there's some places where you don't see the building.

 

I have mixed feelings about the International Tower... I love what it would do for the skyline, extending it north, and we can all agree it's better than a parking lot, but the point of my original post was to say that I think there might be a hidden blessing if this doesn't get built, assuming something else does in a few years. Just one man's opinion, though. :)

Edited by H-Town Man
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I think Stream Realty and Essex Commercial Properties will just try to get International Tower out of the ground during the next office boom if they can't get it up during this one. Same way Bookfield and Crescent is trying again with their proposed office towers.

Bookfield may finally have the captial did,nt they just make a huge sell of one their buildings

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I contemplated whether or not to post this - we own in midtown and go out downtown a lot! My job took me west this week and I work with Air LIQUIDE - thy recently announced they are. Holding a 20 story campus in EC - man I know I'm gonna catch heat but - couldn't any of those companies build move DT ? I literally flew home all week on the Katy tollway but how long is that possible? Anyway probably not the best topic to post this but the wind has been taken out of my DT loving sails - someone pick me up...

I work on Park Row... there is no possible way you "fly" home using the regular lanes. However if you're sucked in to the hctra's scheme then it is quite possible.

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Classic haif pile-on, I love it. 

 

mfastx that 75 story building is three blocks away and doesn't loom over Market Square at all. But its looming presence hasn't exactly done wonders for street life along Texas Ave., so I wonder what your point is?

 

cloud713 I thought your response was the strongest, but the 40 story tower is only half a block wide, not a full block, and will probably present a more interesting facade than the expanses of glass on the International Tower. So I'm not as concerned about it.

 

Moore713, that is a very optimistic picture. I don't think though that just the presence of many workers in an office tower guarantees that they'll all go down to the street below and foster urban life. All else being equal, yes it is good to have lots of workers in close proximity, but there is a danger in brutalizing the space.

 

Classic example of brutalizing a space by the way is the Tour Montparnasse, which so overwhelmed the neighborhood below it that two years later Paris passed a law banning all buildings over 7 stories anywhere in the central city. The Montparnasse neighborhood never fully recovered its charm, although there's some places where you don't see the building.

 

I have mixed feelings about the International Tower... I love what it would do for the skyline, extending it north, and we can all agree it's better than a parking lot, but the point of my original post was to say that I think there might be a hidden blessing if this doesn't get built, assuming something else does in a few years. Just one man's opinion, though. :)

 

 

I see what you're saying.  Say International Tower doesn't get built, because realistically how much has demand for downtown Class A space grown?  So given continued incentives for downtown residential, and the two new residential projects adjoining Market Square, this block would be an obvious call for another residential project.  Think of Market Square with three large residential projects.  It could easily become Houston's version of Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.

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I see what you're saying.  Say International Tower doesn't get built, because realistically how much has demand for downtown Class A space grown?  So given continued incentives for downtown residential, and the two new residential projects adjoining Market Square, this block would be an obvious call for another residential project.  Think of Market Square with three large residential projects.  It could easily become Houston's version of Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.

 

To be honest, I rather an office or a mix use office there.

 

Think of it in this way, market square is one square block. Without any of these residential projects, it is pretty full of people and activities. You add 3, 350 unit developments and the park becomes overrun in the mornings / evenings by people needing to let out their dogs, and spending their outdoor time there... on the one square block. Grass / nature couldnt survive as well with all that ware. Honestly, with the 2 proposed (and God willing built) the park might still suffer. If the office building goes in there, then there will be a steady stream of people that can reduce the stress times on the park.

 

Either way, it's going to be a popular park. no doubt or worry about that.

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To be honest, I rather an office or a mix use office there.

Think of it in this way, market square is one square block. Without any of these residential projects, it is pretty full of people and activities. You add 3, 350 unit developments and the park becomes overrun in the mornings / evenings by people needing to let out their dogs, and spending their outdoor time there... on the one square block. Grass / nature couldnt survive as well with all that ware. Honestly, with the 2 proposed (and God willing built) the park might still suffer. If the office building goes in there, then there will be a steady stream of people that can reduce the stress times on the park.

Either way, it's going to be a popular park. no doubt or worry about that.

There's always the bayou a few blocks away. Lots of small parks in New York have much higher populations within a three block radius and seem to do well. If there's too many people walking in this part of town... what a nice problem to have!

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mfastx that 75 story building is three blocks away and doesn't loom over Market Square at all. But its looming presence hasn't exactly done wonders for street life along Texas Ave., so I wonder what your point is?

 

 

Okay, it's two blocks away, and all over the world there are many large towers that loom over heavily utilized pedestrian areas.  It's all about street level interaction.  No matter how tall the building is, if it engages the pedestrian then they will be comfortable.

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Agreed with most of the above.. Another residential might put this park over an edge we don't want it to go over.. I'm sure we've all seen how discovery green and klyde warren have to rope off sections of grass for days to allow the ground to recover..

But a hotel/office/retail combo would be fantastic here..

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Okay, it's two blocks away, and all over the world there are many large towers that loom over heavily utilized pedestrian areas.  It's all about street level interaction.  No matter how tall the building is, if it engages the pedestrian then they will be comfortable.

 

Heavily utilized could mean Rockefeller Plaza or it could mean Washington Square, Greenwich Village. One of those works with tall buildings looming over it, the other wouldn't. The thing about Market Square is that it has the oldest buildings in all of Houston, and is one of the only places in the whole city that could be called quaint or charming. I just don't want to risk building a giant glass highrise on one side. If the character of this place is damaged, then that's it... Houston doesn't have any other square with quaint old-timey buildings around it.

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Heavily utilized could mean Rockefeller Plaza or it could mean Washington Square, Greenwich Village. One of those works with tall buildings looming over it, the other wouldn't. The thing about Market Square is that it has the oldest buildings in all of Houston, and is one of the only places in the whole city that could be called quaint or charming. I just don't want to risk building a giant glass highrise on one side. If the character of this place is damaged, then that's it... Houston doesn't have any other square with quaint old-timey buildings around it.

 

Unfortunately the character was damaged back when the south side of buildings was replaced with surface parking, and the west side with a jumbo parking garage.  I can understand the concern with a glass facade, and the shape of the proposed International Tower hardly coordinates with the local building, but maybe a residential building, even a highrise, could be designed with greater sensitivity to the street and square.  Here's hoping anyhow. 

 

Now that I've read your comments I'm starting to think it might be better if International Tower weren't built!

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Scale being an important consideration and the fact that this is on the edge of the only historical area left in downtown it might be nicer to have a building intended for whatever use, that becomes the integrating factor of the skyline area and the theater/ historic district.

I like the idea of a hotel and I imagine with all of the performing arts centered in the neighborhood a nice boutique hotel similar to the Lancaster, or maybe our own W, might be a good choice. I think something else to consider is the view from N45. If the building was in say the 30 story range and a really amazing design it wouldn't block the buildings behind it and would be a nice transition.

It would definitely have a great location to be seen from several different angles. Every building built downtown doesn't have to be a 75 story building. We have plenty of empty blocks for those to come. Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

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One thing I meant to bring up is the block that was going to be the site of the 80 story tower that they had the competition for back in the late 70"s . I believe it was called the Bank of the Southwest Tower . I'm sure someone will correct me on the title but the competition made national news and the story made the headlines and cover story of Time Magazine as the project of the time.

That's where we need the 80+ story tower. Right in the center and between the Texas Commerce/Chase 75stories and the 71 story Wells Fargo building. Hell make it 102 stories and screw the FAA!

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