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609 Main at Texas: Hines Next Downtown Tower

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Something like this does not make sense in Houston. Supertalls (and anything else actually) are allowed anywhere in Houston - except for deed-restricted developments. Land is not designated for any uses or density...that would be called the z word.

 

thats what i was thinking, but i couldnt ever get a response back from the person. i guess it was more out of the designated flight paths than anything.

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interesting article. im sure he is talking about the Hines redevelopment too (but hes assuming the Chevron tower will only be 50 stories, not sitting on top of a podium making the tower closer in height to a 58 story building). the crown will make Hines taller than 50 stories, but the podium will make Chevron taller than Hines. im thinking ~800', but im no expert.

as for the rumors. someone replied to a post of mine once mentioning Hines owning a plot located in an area that allowed/was basically designated for a supertall? anyone have any idea what lot this would be?

 

I'm Texas Leftist

 

Yes I was referring to 609 Main, given that we don't have an official height for it yet. 

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/realestate/07-08-13-houstons-next-great-skyscraper-hines-to-texas-size-new-main-street-office-tower-speed-up-development/

 

 

I just wrote a simple blog post outlining the totality of construction... didn't expect to set off a new rumor mill! 

Edited by totheskies
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Haha, no worries. So you don't think the 757' 49 story floor plans posted by lockmat are official?

 

I guess we all have different ways of measuring height.  The height of the Hines building hasn't been confirmed, and who knows if Chevron doesn't decide to slap an antenna or something on theirs, but my understanding is that the crown will be taller than Chevron's building, and by that reasoning the crown is part of the building. 

 

Of course we also know that total building height and number of floors don't necessarily correlate either.  A 40-story building could be taller than a 50-story one (office vs residential, etc.), so those are also factors to take into account. 

 

I'll have to revisit the thread, but lockmat posted the square footage and assumed number of stories, correct?  He didn't post the height. 

 

But I get y'all's point... when talking about Chevron I referred to stories, but then with Hines I referred to height (which was on purpose to keep the post very generalized). 

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I guess we all have different ways of measuring height. The height of the Hines building hasn't been confirmed, and who knows if Chevron doesn't decide to slap an antenna or something on theirs, but my understanding is that the crown will be taller than Chevron's building, and by that reasoning the crown is part of the building.

Of course we also know that total building height and number of floors don't necessarily correlate either. A 40-story building could be taller than a 50-story one (office vs residential, etc.), so those are also factors to take into account.

I'll have to revisit the thread, but lockmat posted the square footage and assumed number of stories, correct? He didn't post the height.

But I get y'all's point... when talking about Chevron I referred to stories, but then with Hines I referred to height (which was on purpose to keep the post very generalized).

I posted some drawings I received that showed its height.

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Oh I forgot we have 2 threads on this. That's probably why tothesky didn't notice the new renderings. And nativehoustonion.. It's 756'9".. Totally 757'.. That extra foot matters! Heh.

I agree tangledwoods. Chevron will be prob be at least 800'. I factored the height to floor ratios and 800' would put a 58 floor equivalent building (what the Chevron rendering shows) at less than 13.8' per floor.

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I could totally be wrong on Hines, which will be perfectly fine with me.  All is speculation until the building is off the ground anyway. 

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Oh I forgot we have 2 threads on this. That's probably why tothesky didn't notice the new renderings. And nativehoustonion.. It's 756'9".. Totally 757'.. That extra foot matters! Heh.

I agree tangledwoods. Chevron will be prob be at least 800'. I factored the height to floor ratios and 800' would put a 58 floor equivalent building (what the Chevron rendering shows) at less than 13.8' per floor.

Can somebody merge both threads?

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Can somebody merge both threads?

 

I think they should stay separate since the other one is mainly a poll and speculation merely on it's height. However this is the main thread on the subject.

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After watching what happened in the late 70's early 80's with the downtown building boom, and hearing reports of a similar

building spurt I really think the speculative talk about supertall skyscrapers,and the supersizing of proposed buildings is a little

naive. Sure I would love to see a really well designed 80 story building on the vacant lot on Milam in the heart of town which once was the proposed site of the Southwest Tower competition.

Realistically, I don't think that is going to happen. Developers are more conservative now and the city has developed too many other areas, the Galleria, Energy Corridor, the Woodlands, to name a few, that have taken up much of the sq. ftage. and the excitement of building everything downtown.

My hope is that the Chevron Tower, the Skanksa Building, the Marriot Marquis, and possibly the Hines or Linbeck properties are developed along with the Hines Market Square condo tower, joining the already in progress  Finger condos at Minute Maid and the sky space tower across from the Houston House. Throw in the other smaller convention center hotels and HSPVA, and I think everyone should be very excited about this cycle of downtown development.

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Realistically, I don't think that is going to happen. Developers are more conservative now and the city has developed too many other areas, the Galleria, Energy Corridor, the Woodlands, to name a few, that have taken up much of the sq. ftage. and the excitement of building everything downtown.

 

Agreed. I think the next 1.5 - 2 million square feet of absorption (in addition to those already announced/speculated on this forum) will come in the Energy Corridor. Downtown is a great place to be... if you want/can afford to pay $35/ft NNN, and $200/month for parking. Energy corridor offers the same shiny Class A space, admittedly without all that downtown has to offer, for closer to $28/ft NNN - with free parking. Makes too much sense for corporations looking to absorb MAJOR square footage to look in markets outside of downtown. 

 

Back on topic - who's going to occupy this building? There's probably 3-4 major tenants looking for space, and as far as I know, none of them are looking downtown.

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there are rumors that they already have a tenant secured. good question though.. hopefully there are more tenants interested in downtown with all the new proposals we have.

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Realistically, I don't think that is going to happen. Developers are more conservative now and the city has developed too many other areas, the Galleria, Energy Corridor, the Woodlands, to name a few, that have taken up much of the sq. ftage. and the excitement of building everything downtown.

Agreed. I think the next 1.5 - 2 million square feet of absorption (in addition to those already announced/speculated on this forum) will come in the Energy Corridor. Downtown is a great place to be... if you want/can afford to pay $35/ft NNN, and $200/month for parking. Energy corridor offers the same shiny Class A space, admittedly without all that downtown has to offer, for closer to $28/ft NNN - with free parking. Makes too much sense for corporations looking to absorb MAJOR square footage to look in markets outside of downtown.

Back on topic - who's going to occupy this building? There's probably 3-4 major tenants looking for space, and as far as I know, none of them are looking downtown.

What happened to all the demand that supposedly brought about all these downtown proposals and renderings?

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The Energy Corridor has great growth now, but I feel like future mobility problems could hamper growth in the future. They really only have 1 major thoroughfare, I10, and besides a car sharing program or two they haven't really invested in any other methods of transportation. What happens when the next wave of 3-5 Mil sq ft of office space is delivered? Possibly widen I10 some more? I'm sure they could implement buses quickly but that doesn't seem much of a solution when the streets are clogged. Then again, The Galleria seems to have much greater transportation challenges and developers are still cramming buildings in there.

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What happened to all the demand that supposedly brought about all these downtown proposals and renderings?

 

there's a ton of demand. Off of the top of my head, I can think of 2 million square feet of space that WILL be taken in the next 6-12 months (in big chunks). There's probably a whole lot more than that. Developers wouldn't build if the demand weren't there (CBD)... I just don't know currently who's demanding it. My guess is Linn Energy make a play for one of the new buildings downtown as an anchor in the next couple of years. Pure speculation though.

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there's a ton of demand. Off of the top of my head, I can think of 2 million square feet of space that WILL be taken in the next 6-12 months (in big chunks). There's probably a whole lot more than that. Developers wouldn't build if the demand weren't there (CBD)... I just don't know currently who's demanding it. My guess is Linn Energy make a play for one of the new buildings downtown as an anchor in the next couple of years. Pure speculation though.

 

Exciting stuff.  That bodes well for getting at least 2 of the proposed downtown towers under way, I would think.

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What happened to all the demand that supposedly brought about all these downtown proposals and renderings?

there's a ton of demand. Off of the top of my head, I can think of 2 million square feet of space that WILL be taken in the next 6-12 months (in big chunks). There's probably a whole lot more than that. Developers wouldn't build if the demand weren't there (CBD)... I just don't know currently who's demanding it. My guess is Linn Energy make a play for one of the new buildings downtown as an anchor in the next couple of years. Pure speculation though.

I think I'm misunderstanding or I'm just dense. If the 3-4 tenants that you know of are looking for space are looking in the energy corridor, how is there also demand downtown?

Thanks

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I'm just assuming there's demand in the CBD because developers are building (or planning on building) there. I can't think of any tenants that are looking for more than 50-60k sf in downtown, BUT, that doesn't mean there aren't any. Just means I don't know about them. 

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I'm just assuming there's demand in the CBD because developers are building (or planning on building) there. I can't think of any tenants that are looking for more than 50-60k sf in downtown, BUT, that doesn't mean there aren't any. Just means I don't know about them. 

 

Lockmat is not the only one having trouble understanding all of this.  Are you saying you know of 2 Million square feet of CBD leases that are going to be signed (in big chunks) in the coming 6-12 months, but you just don't know who any of the signing tenants are?

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Pretty sure if you reread the comments hoothrewpoo is saying the the large tenants in the market for space right now would rather look in the Energy Corridor or the Woodlands instead of downtown. Since she said previously that the next 1-2 Mil Sq Ft of absorption would probably be in the EC. 

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Lockmat is not the only one having trouble understanding all of this.  Are you saying you know of 2 Million square feet of CBD leases that are going to be signed (in big chunks) in the coming 6-12 months, but you just don't know who any of the signing tenants are?

 

To clarify, all of the major absorption I know of is going to happen in the EC (somewhere in the neighborhood of 2M sf). I assume there is demand in the CBD, because developers have plans to build there (CBD). I can't get my head around who the possible tenants are in the CBD, because most of the major blocks of space have been earmarked for the EC.

 

any better?

Pretty sure if you reread the comments hoothrewpoo is saying the the large tenants in the market for space right now would rather look in the Energy Corridor or the Woodlands instead of downtown. Since she said previously that the next 1-2 Mil Sq Ft of absorption would probably be in the EC. 

 

Bingo.

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Pretty sure if you reread the comments hoothrewpoo is saying the the large tenants in the market for space right now would rather look in the Energy Corridor or the Woodlands instead of downtown. Since she said previously that the next 1-2 Mil Sq Ft of absorption would probably be in the EC. 

 

Understood. But confusion arises when she posts, in response to a question clearly and solely about the CBD market, that "there's a ton of demand. . . . I can think of 2 million square feet of space that WILL be taken in the next 6-12 months (in big chunks). There's probably a whole lot more than that." 

 

Both the question and her response mentioned the CBD and neither the question nor the response made any mention whatsoever of the EC or any other submarket besides the CBD.

 

I am glad she has now clarified that she doesn't actually know of any potential major lessees looking in the CBD submarket or the source of any of the demand being perceived by Hines, et. al.

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With so much supposed demand downtown, in which it caused three new towers to be announced, you'd think someone would have secured enough tenant space to break ground...unless they all announced them very prematurely in hopes of getting ahead of one another?

 

Just seems like it is taking a long time for so much "demand."

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They have tenants. BG Group Place had no tenants and Hines still build it now it is 96 percent leased. Just give it a few months when they announced ground breaking. Just like today Chevron got their tax rebate from the city. I wonder if Occidental Oil will stay In Los Angeles?

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Oxy is rumored to be in the market for 1M sf in Houston, but that rumor has been floating around for the better part of a year. 

the rumor has been floated forever. they recently expanded and extended their lease at greenway for 10 yrs i believe so i don't think they'd be actively looking right now.

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the rumor has been floated forever. they recently expanded and extended their lease at greenway for 10 yrs i believe so i don't think they'd be actively looking right now.

 

agreed - downtown is an unlikely destination for them. I think they'll be back in the market well before their lease is up though... they'll get a new building in Greenway Plaza someday, possibly on the site that Amegy Bank was rumored to be building a new tower on.

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With so much supposed demand downtown, in which it caused three new towers to be announced, you'd think someone would have secured enough tenant space to break ground...unless they all announced them very prematurely in hopes of getting ahead of one another?

 

Just seems like it is taking a long time for so much "demand."

 

They are clearing out the innards of the Houston Club building. Of course that's a much longer critical path to building a new structure, but Skanska is spending money on it now.

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Some confusing but interesting information I found regarding Hines' new tower. They both seem to indicate that it for sure is going forward in early 2014 with PM Realty's report even going as far as to say they were going to go spec. Bisnow's information is confusing because if says, "But the CBD has been stable for the last 15 years. In that time, only four multitenant office towers were built in the submarket, and now there are none under construction and only two slated to break ground before year-end 2014. And those are already 60% pre-committed; Hines' 800k SF tower at 609 Main doesn't have a tenant yet, but Chevron's 50-story tower is owner-occupied." Since Chevron's building is owner-occupied why would they bring it up since it is not multitenant? Even if it was with some quick math, dividing Chevron's 1.7 mil sq ft of occupied space by the 2.5 mil sq ft between the 2 buildings it comes out to 68% occupancy. Unless of course they are only occupying 1.5 mil and renting out another 200k of space for amenities. There's no other way the numbers would add up because it would take both Skanska and Linbeck's projects to be fully occupied to even out Hines since its presumed spec.

http://www.bisnow.com/commercial-real-estate/houston/is-downtown-a-gateway-market/

http://downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2013-08-14/2013-2Q_-_PMRG_Market_at_a_Glance.pdf

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Some confusing but interesting information I found regarding Hines' new tower. They both seem to indicate that it for sure is going forward in early 2014 with PM Realty's report even going as far as to say they were going to go spec. Bisnow's information is confusing because if says, "But the CBD has been stable for the last 15 years. In that time, only four multitenant office towers were built in the submarket, and now there are none under construction and only two slated to break ground before year-end 2014. And those are already 60% pre-committed; Hines' 800k SF tower at 609 Main doesn't have a tenant yet, but Chevron's 50-story tower is owner-occupied." Since Chevron's building is owner-occupied why would they bring it up since it is not multitenant? Even if it was with some quick math, dividing Chevron's 1.7 mil sq ft of occupied space by the 2.5 mil sq ft between the 2 buildings it comes out to 68% occupancy. Unless of course they are only occupying 1.5 mil and renting out another 200k of space for amenities. There's no other way the numbers would add up because it would take both Skanska and Linbeck's projects to be fully occupied to even out Hines since its presumed spec.

http://www.bisnow.com/commercial-real-estate/houston/is-downtown-a-gateway-market/

http://downtownhouston.org/site_media/uploads/attachments/2013-08-14/2013-2Q_-_PMRG_Market_at_a_Glance.pdf

 

It was a little sloppy to be talking about multitenant buildings and then suddenly throw Chevron in there.  But that's Houston "journalism".  I think 609 Main is now expected top be 1 Million square feet, rather than 800,000.  That makes the 60% number closer to making sense (and maybe 609 Main is going to be 1.1 Million square feet).

 

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Chevron said in their press release that it would be 1.7 million sqft.

 

"Chevron U.S.A. is planning to build a new downtown skyscraper for its growing Houston workforce

The energy giant said this morning it will build a 50-story tower with 1.7 million square feet at 1600 Louisiana St. at Pease."

Edited by HOUSTONIAN (N-ATL)

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Wow spectacular renderings, as always great find Urbannizer.  :)

 

I heartily concur.

Those renderings make clear it's a full block utilized - so the old building on the NE corner is a (soon-to-be) goner?

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It seems like to me towers such as this and the International Tower will reign in a new era of Houston architecture with their fantastic sharp lines and glass facades. These two towers really do set a higher bar and standard for the downtown area. It certainly will be a beautiful building upon completion.

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I heartily concur.

Those renderings make clear it's a full block utilized - so the old building on the NE corner is a (soon-to-be) goner?

Yeah the old Texas Tower will have to come down. It's been empty for years though.

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Yeah the old Texas Tower will have to come down. It's been empty for years though.

 

Not a big loss. 

 

I'm still wondering how 609 Main will connect to the tunnels, if at all.

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Not a big loss. 

 

I'm still wondering how 609 Main will connect to the tunnels, if at all.

 

Chase Tower garage is tunnel-connected right across Main; so that seems the logical choice.  I'm pretty sure Hines still manages the Chase Tower complex, so that may already be in the works.

 

It's inconceivable to me that Hines would build a super-premium Class A w/o tunnel access.

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I'm still wondering how 609 Main will connect to the tunnels, if at all.

 

From what this article said,"...The building will contain ground-floor retail space and be connected to downtown’s tunnel system through the BG Group Place building and eventually to another high-rise planned to the north of the property." I can only presume the building to the north would be this one. Is it odd that Hines would go through the new Texaco building after it's renovated to connect one of their buildings to the tunnel system? Hines is so tricky.

 

 

http://blog.chron.com/primeproperty/2013/08/old-texaco-building-getting-a-new-life/#comments

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Not a big loss. 

 

I'm still wondering how 609 Main will connect to the tunnels, if at all.

 

:blink:

 

c'mon man... you've been around long enough where you shouldn't openly wonder this.

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Chase Tower garage is tunnel-connected right across Main; so that seems the logical choice.  I'm pretty sure Hines still manages the Chase Tower complex, so that may already be in the works.

 

It's inconceivable to me that Hines would build a super-premium Class A w/o tunnel access.

 

If memory serves the Chase garage tunnel runs through the west side of the block, so connecting to 609 Main might mean burrowing through their basement, which Chase might not want.  The alternaive of approaching north from BG Place would mean digging under an entire block of older structures. 

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If memory serves the Chase garage tunnel runs through the west side of the block, so connecting to 609 Main might mean burrowing through their basement, which Chase might not want.  The alternative of approaching north from BG Place would mean digging under an entire block of older structures. 

 

That's fascinating.  A tunnel run connecting only 609 Main and BG Group (800 block) north-to-south would be a long run -- I don't see any precedent for it in the current tunnel system.  And I assume that it would have to run out in the Fannin Street ROW, since the older buildings on the 700 block (St. Germaine lofts, Houston Bar Building) would likely not be connected, and would not readily grant an easement. Using the Texaco redevelopment as a hop-scotch is a very interesting idea. 

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From what this article said,"...The building will contain ground-floor retail space and be connected to downtown’s tunnel system through the BG Group Place building and eventually to another high-rise planned to the north of the property." I can only presume the building to the north would be this one. Is it odd that Hines would go through the new Texaco building after it's renovated to connect one of their buildings to the tunnel system? Hines is so tricky.

http://blog.chron.com/primeproperty/2013/08/old-texaco-building-getting-a-new-life/#comments

I think you've got it right.

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