Inner Loop Traffic

[Slick Vik]

what's worse is that they've spent about 45 million on design and various studies for the galleria line and even more for the richmond line. all down the drain.

I think they're waiting for a miracle, meaning federal funds

[KinkaidAlum]

Not sure I'd lay the blame on lack of building of the University and Uptown lines on METRO.

 

Culberson's cronies are where I'd point my finger...

[IHB2]

I have to admit it is rather amazing that metro was unable to even get started on uptown and university lines since the referendum nearly 10 years ago.

 

unless you came late to the party that began in earnest in 2005, there's not a damn thing amazing about it.

 

opposition to those 2 rail lines extends well beyond a few pricy neighborhoods and kneejerk NIMBYs b/c the design of both has centered on political considerations rather than efficient, cost-effective routes.

 

and you have to account for the agency's annoying combination of arrogance and ineptitude in its decision to just release proposed routes to the public as a fait accompli before gathering sufficient stakeholder support. my 1st Univ Line meeting was at the Holiday Inn Galleria in summer 05 and for the benefit of the Afton Oaks crowd, who were there in full force and already plenty pissed that the line would be on any part of Richmond, especially their part.

 

Frank Wilson had yet to develop his shuck 'n jive "we're crossing to Westpark" schtick, but I'll claim some credit for his future talking points that Westpark between Weslayan and Chimney Rock is a transit "desert" from a ridership perspective, since the term was mine when I spoke at the 05 meeting.

[Slick Vik]

unless you came late to the party that began in earnest in 2005, there's not a damn thing amazing about it.

opposition to those 2 rail lines extends well beyond a few pricy neighborhoods and kneejerk NIMBYs b/c the design of both has centered on political considerations rather than efficient, cost-effective routes.

and you have to account for the agency's annoying combination of arrogance and ineptitude in its decision to just release proposed routes to the public as a fait accompli before gathering sufficient stakeholder support. my 1st Univ Line meeting was at the Holiday Inn Galleria in summer 05 and for the benefit of the Afton Oaks crowd, who were there in full force and already plenty pissed that the line would be on any part of Richmond, especially their part.

Frank Wilson had yet to develop his shuck 'n jive "we're crossing to Westpark" schtick, but I'll claim some credit for his future talking points that Westpark between Weslayan and Chimney Rock is a transit "desert" from a ridership perspective, since the term was mine when I spoke at the 05 meeting.

What would be the most efficient routes? Richmond or westheimer to me seem the obvious ones. But I think highland village had staunch opposition also

[IHB2]

What would be the most efficient routes? Richmond or westheimer to me seem the obvious ones. But I think highland village had staunch opposition also

 

 

I would urge you to search for METRO's original Univ Line route proposal that stayed on Richmond west of Main until Timmons, then turned north to Westheimer, then through Highland Village through the Galleria to Sage/Hidalgo, turning south to Richmond to the SW Fwy feeder at the Westpark curve, then crossing Westpark to the P&R terminus.

 

The route made sense to me on many levels, especially the idea of running through the heart of the Galleria and of critical importance IMO the fact that the line would never have to cross the SW Fwy.

 

HV was utterly opposed. So it didn't happen. Only then was Richmond through Afton Oaks included in the line.

 

HV merchants didn't want LRT for the same reason Costco killed it going past Cummins - no left turns allowed across Richmond = limits automobile access to merchant parking - and forcing the elevated turn south over 59 to Westpark that was just a stupid decision from a cost, engineering, and ridership perspective.

 

When METRO suggested a grade separation LRT bridge over the UPRR tracks at HV, the merchants could see the same problem Harrisburg merchants had with the East Line bridge, only HV merchants have a hell of a lot more stroke than the Harrisburg businesses. Homeowners on the Westheimer end of Afton Oaks also were not happy about elevating the train.

 

METRO then suggested a similar bridge elevating the train over the UPRR on Richmond and all of Afton Oaks went nuts...

[Slick Vik]

I would urge you to search for METRO's original Univ Line route proposal that stayed on Richmond west of Main until Timmons, then turned north to Westheimer, then through Highland Village through the Galleria to Sage/Hidalgo, turning south to Richmond to the SW Fwy feeder at the Westpark curve, then crossing Westpark to the P&R terminus.

The route made sense to me on many levels, especially the idea of running through the heart of the Galleria and of critical importance IMO the fact that the line would never have to cross the SW Fwy.

HV was utterly opposed. So it didn't happen. Only then was Richmond through Afton Oaks included in the line.

HV merchants didn't want LRT for the same reason Costco killed it going past Cummins - no left turns allowed across Richmond = limits automobile access to merchant parking - and forcing the elevated turn south over 59 to Westpark that was just a stupid decision from a cost, engineering, and ridership perspective.

When METRO suggested a grade separation LRT bridge over the UPRR tracks at HV, the merchants could see the same problem Harrisburg merchants had with the East Line bridge, only HV merchants have a hell of a lot more stroke than the Harrisburg businesses. Homeowners on the Westheimer end of Afton Oaks also were not happy about elevating the train.

METRO then suggested a similar bridge elevating the train over the UPRR on Richmond and all of Afton Oaks went nuts...

That route sounds fabulous. But that makes too much sense. I find it amazing that merchants and neighborhoods have more power than transit authorities.

[Houston19514]

I would urge you to search for METRO's original Univ Line route proposal that stayed on Richmond west of Main until Timmons, then turned north to Westheimer, then through Highland Village through the Galleria to Sage/Hidalgo, turning south to Richmond to the SW Fwy feeder at the Westpark curve, then crossing Westpark to the P&R terminus.

The route made sense to me on many levels, especially the idea of running through the heart of the Galleria and of critical importance IMO the fact that the line would never have to cross the SW Fwy.

HV was utterly opposed. So it didn't happen. Only then was Richmond through Afton Oaks included in the line.

HV merchants didn't want LRT for the same reason Costco killed it going past Cummins - no left turns allowed across Richmond = limits automobile access to merchant parking - and forcing the elevated turn south over 59 to Westpark that was just a stupid decision from a cost, engineering, and ridership perspective.

When METRO suggested a grade separation LRT bridge over the UPRR tracks at HV, the merchants could see the same problem Harrisburg merchants had with the East Line bridge, only HV merchants have a hell of a lot more stroke than the Harrisburg businesses. Homeowners on the Westheimer end of Afton Oaks also were not happy about elevating the train.

METRO then suggested a similar bridge elevating the train over the UPRR on Richmond and all of Afton Oaks went nuts...

Source? Links?

[Ross]

That route sounds fabulous. But that makes too much sense. I find it amazing that merchants and neighborhoods have more power than transit authorities.

 

Right, because we should all lay down and let the government tell us what to do, even if it means destroying our neighborhood or business.

[Slick Vik]

Right, because we should all lay down and let the government tell us what to do, even if it means destroying our neighborhood or business.

This would be for the better good of the overall population, to help people get from place to place in a cost and time efficient manner. And second of all, without this government there would be no roads, no lights, no infrastructure period, a lot of which created the suburban "American Dream." You can't have it both ways.

[samagon]

Right, because we should all lay down and let the government tell us what to do, even if it means destroying our neighborhood or business.

 

It makes sense for a government agency to not be given free reign to just drop a line anywhere without careful consideration regarding how it will affect those neighborhoods. One has only to look at how freeways cut through the middle of neighborhoods affected them negatively, and it takes decades for them to get their feet back under them, no matter how good it might have been for the overall city.

 

Of course, I personally think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. The government isn't willing to pose a short term disruption anywhere at the cost of the long game. And it seems like that direction is not given by the voice of people, but money.

 

Why was the east end line okay running straight down the middle of a very vibrant (if not money rich) community, yet the same cannot be done down the middle of another vibrant (and rich) community?

 

I'd bet, with the way Montrose is turning into River Oaks east, that in 5-10 years time when they start planning for this route again, it won't just be HV, or AO, all of everything west of the midtown spur will be against it going through.

 

As a casual observer, it sure as hell looks like this tiny bit of America is ruled not by one person/one vote, but who's got the bigger pockets? But I guess, how is this different than any other time in American history?

[IHB2]

Source? Links?

 

I can't dredge up any text source from pre-Solutions referendum in Nov 2003, but the original Timmons to Westheimer route was the proposal for "The East-West Line" (later renamed the Univ Line) before Solutions, and HV had already shot it down by late 2003.

 

"NEW" METRO's website re: LRT is scrubbed clean of anything happening before Greanias took over, and if you want to try to slog through the Chronicle online archives to find a 10-12 yr old article with route map (there was one I think) good luck.

 

My info on HV's position comes from attending every Univ Line meeting from summer 2005 through the end of 2009 (including meetings for citizen design of the stations to fit the unique character of each neighborhood that would have a station   ). If that's not good eneough for you, you can wade through the public testimony for every meeting and my testimony is evidence I was actually there.

 

Here is a link to Christof Spieler's analysis of the evolving Solutions rail plan from 2004. Needless to say, things changed considerably from 2004.

 

It's an interesting read and interesting to see his own evolution, especially once they gave him the key to METRO's executive washroom uh Board appointment.

 

http://citemag.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/MetroWhatsNext_Spieler_Cite61.pdf

 

As usual Spieler's original take makes a lot of sense.

[Houston19514]

Well, it's not good enough for me. ;-). Because you told us nothing. The Spieler article you linked does not even contain any of the words "Westheimer", "Highland Village" , or "Timmons". Further, your having allegedly attended every University Line meeting starting in mid-2005 is not evidence of knowledge of plans supposedly killed and buried 1 1/2 years prior.

[musicman]

This would be for the better good of the overall population, to help people get from place to place in a cost and time efficient manner.

METRO is not an organization that does anything in a cost and time efficient manner. They've wasted over 100 million on the 2 lines that haven't been built. That money could have been used to actually help our transportation concerns.

[samagon]

METRO is not an organization that does anything in a cost and time efficient manner. They've wasted over 100 million on the 2 lines that haven't been built. That money could have been used to actually help our transportation concerns.

 

is there any government run, or government funded organization that does anything in a cost/time efficient manner?

[Slick Vik]

At the same time it is absurd that a neighborhood like Afton Oaks can reroute a light rail line. This isn't like an expressway ripping through the Bronx.

[IHB2]

Well, it's not good enough for me. ;-). Because you told us nothing. The Spieler article you linked does not even contain any of the words "Westheimer", "Highland Village" , or "Timmons". Further, your having allegedly attended every University Line meeting starting in mid-2005 is not evidence of knowledge of plans supposedly killed and buried 1 1/2 years prior.

 

  ok then.

 

last links: 2007 the earliest Chronicle reference I can find to rail on Westheimer but is in response to an anti-rail on Richmond group "dredging up" an old idea according to this article and Gulf Coast Institute (David Crossley.)

 

the very 1st meeting I attended in 2005 there was some discussion of the "original" Richmond rail route by both the AO folks, Frank Wilson, and the lead METRO LRT engineer at the time (Scott ?? somebody - can't remember his name), which in fact turned north at Timmons to Westheimer - see the 2006 link below to Gulf Coast Institute (you'll have to click on the imbedded links to the "Richmond/Westheimer Alignment" b/c this is as far as I'm going to lead you, you just have to go it alone from here   )

 

keep in mind that the Uptown Line was not part of the 2003 referendum (was to be voted on in a 2nd Solutions referendum proposed for 2009 after the other 4 were completed or well underway to completion), and an earlier plan to run on Westheimer through the heart of the Galleria makes more sense.

 

2006:  http://www.gulfcoastinstitute.org/university/

 

 

2007: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-traffic/article/For-some-Westheimer-light-rail-still-merits-1592373.php

[Houston19514]

  ok then.

 

last link: 2007 the earliest reference I can find to rail on Westheimer but is in response to an anti-rail on Richmond group "dredging up" an old idea according to this article and some blog posts by David Crossley.

 

the very 1st meeting I attended in 2005 there was some discussion of the "original" Richmond rail route, which in fact turned north at Timmons to Westheimer.

 

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-traffic/article/For-some-Westheimer-light-rail-still-merits-1592373.php

 

Just because someone may have used the words "original" Richmond rail route to describe a route that you remember understanding 8 years ago to mean a route that turned north at Timmons to Westheimer does not make any of it so.

 

In fact, one of the early alternative routes considered by Metro went out Richmond and turned north on Weslayan (not Timmons) to Westheimer.  It was never in any sense the "original" or  designated or chosen route.  It was dismissed very early on in the process, largely, I think, because of lack of space on Westheimer to add surface rail.

[KinkaidAlum]

is there any government run, or government funded organization that does anything in a cost/time efficient manner?

 

No. But that is what happens when we keep electing people to government who inherently hate government.

 

The sequester nonsense is about to make things worse. I am praying that it will make the average American WAKE UP and realize that we NEED government. It's a necessary evil, but it doesn't have to be evil. We can make government efficient but not with teabaggers in charge.

 

It always amazes me that people are stunned by how inefficient our government is but then they turn around and vote to send people to Congress/Austin/City Hall whose only plan of action is to light a match and burn the house down.

[Ross]

At the same time it is absurd that a neighborhood like Afton Oaks can reroute a light rail line. This isn't like an expressway ripping through the Bronx.

 

Any neighborhood can fight that battle. Afton Oaks was successful. I am curious as to why your commute to the Galleria area should be more important than the property rights of the folks in Afton Oaks.

[Slick Vik]

Any neighborhood can fight that battle. Afton Oaks was successful. I am curious as to why your commute to the Galleria area should be more important than the property rights of the folks in Afton Oaks.

I could say the same thing about the freeways that trampled neighborhoods all across the country. But they didn't even have a chance to fight. You are selectively arguing.

[LarryDierker]

How is it anything to do with property rights? They don't own Richmond Ave.

 

 

[kylejack]

Any neighborhood can fight that battle. Afton Oaks was successful. I am curious as to why your commute to the Galleria area should be more important than the property rights of the folks in Afton Oaks.

 

"Property rights", you have a funny conception of that term, I think

[samagon]

Any neighborhood can fight that battle. Afton Oaks was successful. I am curious as to why your commute to the Galleria area should be more important than the property rights of the folks in Afton Oaks.

 

Property rights? Does Afton Oaks own Richmond?

 

What rights does someone have to something they don't own?

[OkieEric]

As I've said before some of the most congested areas in the world have light rail, Richmond avenue is not even in the same league.

 

Is light rail handled in the same way?  That is, at-grade right down the middle of the street?  I guess in some ways I'm not as worried about Richmond as I would be about Montrose, Shepherd, Kirby, Wesleyan, etc., etc.  Actually, considering we have a decade or more before this even possibly comes to fruition I guess I'm not really worried about any of it.  Hopefully in the meantime a better solution presents itself

 

I don't take the rail because even though I live just west of the med center and work downtown, it's still more convenient to drive.  Maybe someday that won't be the case

[Slick Vik]

Is light rail handled in the same way?  That is, at-grade right down the middle of the street?  I guess in some ways I'm not as worried about Richmond as I would be about Montrose, Shepherd, Kirby, Wesleyan, etc., etc.  Actually, considering we have a decade or more before this even possibly comes to fruition I guess I'm not really worried about any of it.  Hopefully in the meantime a better solution presents itself

 

I don't take the rail because even though I live just west of the med center and work downtown, it's still more convenient to drive.  Maybe someday that won't be the case

 

I guess cost of gasoline and parking is simply not an issue for you.

[Houston19514]

I guess cost of gasoline and parking is simply not an issue for you.

 

. . . and those supposed 5 minute waits at stop lights (mysteriously caused by the light rail that runs parallel to his route) aren't really that much of a problem after all.