Midtown Retail Development

[Jax]

That rendering further proves what I was saying before - which was that "The Mix" was at some point planned to be across the street (or across the corner) from the 24 Hour Fitness building but then they stuck the name "The Mix" on the fitness building instead.

[musicman]

That rendering further proves what I was saying before - which was that "The Mix" was at some point planned to be across the street (or across the corner) from the 24 Hour Fitness building but then they stuck the name "The Mix" on the fitness building instead.

The Mix at Midtown, will have the largest 24 Hour Fitness inside the Loop and contain over 300,000 square feet of upscale retail on five city blocks upon completion.

[swtsig]

Okay, now its all coming together. I know exactly where this is now. When all of this gets built this is going to be a nice area. So when exactly will the tall building get built?

probably tomorrow or the day after.

[Houston19514]

That rendering further proves what I was saying before - which was that "The Mix" was at some point planned to be across the street (or across the corner) from the 24 Hour Fitness building but then they stuck the name "The Mix" on the fitness building instead.

How does it do that? "The Mix" was always planned to be a multi-block development. The fact that they now may be proceeding with another block of the development hardly proves otherwise. (Remember a few weeks ago, we completely DISproved what you were saying before.)

[20thStDad]

Okay, now its all coming together. I know exactly where this is now. When all of this gets built this is going to be a nice area. So when exactly will the tall building get built?

You mean the building in this picture? The one that's already done?

[lockmat]

1. Where did swtsig get that rendering? I never saw a source in the thread.

2. This map from their website seems to show that the current building is on the southeast corner (where the X is) and this rendering is on the northwest corner. Yes?

[Jax]

How does it do that? "The Mix" was always planned to be a multi-block development. The fact that they now may be proceeding with another block of the development hardly proves otherwise. (Remember a few weeks ago, we completely DISproved what you were saying before.)

Okay I guess you disproved me then. Sorry.

[citykid09]

You mean the building in this picture? The one that's already done?

I posted that picture to get a better understanding of how the area would look. I knew that that was already built, I have seen it in person enough, I was talking about the building in the rendering with all of the billboards.

[lockmat]

The first phase of Crosspoint

[musicman]

[TheNiche]

The first phase of Crosspoint’s multiblock development around Elgin and Louisiana called The Mix houses an urban 24 Hour Fitness health club. The rest of the space has been sitting vacant, but there are deals in the works, which Stovall said will be announced soon.

“A lot of deals were done a year ago or more, and it just takes time for tenants to get their financing in some cases,” he said. “The current economy slows that process down.”

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6509509.html

Translation: we built all this really expensive and really cool space by using the Levan family's generationally-bought-and-paid-for land as collateral instead of actually having to raise hard cash, but recently figured out that we can't bring in very many tenants. The book value of our land and properties now exceeds the current market value by a ridiculous sum, eliminating viable exit strategies, and we're getting desperate enough for cash flow to put out a press release with misleading rhetoric about Midtown based on the opening of only a restaurant, a tiny B&B, Camden's apartment deal (which was arranged before things got too nasty and was last year's news) and a bunch of dead-end inquiries in the hopes that it will influence lenders, whose hands are tied anyways by the folks who don't read these kinds of articles. The owner would have been the one getting interviewed by Nancy, but he's sobbing incoherently all over his most recent financial statements, which his executive assistant had to get laminated so the ink didn't start to run.

...ok, so that last bit was a little exaggerated, but you get the point.

EDIT: Btw, it's interesting that they say that Post Midtown kicked off Midtown's rejuvenation. Actually, Enron's land acquisitions and political clout are the true culprits, and Camden Midtown was the true pioneer. It's just that nobody wants to associate Midtown with scoundrels or too-quickly-aging apartments.

Edited July 3, 2009 by TheNiche

[lockmat]

EDIT: Btw, it's interesting that they say that Post Midtown kicked off Midtown's rejuvenation. Actually, Enron's land acquisitions and political clout are the true culprits, and Camden Midtown was the true pioneer. It's just that nobody wants to associate Midtown with scoundrels or too-quickly-aging apartments.

what did they do? Sounds interesting.

[TheNiche]

what did they do? Sounds interesting.

I'm not familiar with the details, as this all went down years before I became a Houstonian and was never relevant enough for me to have a deep understanding of what went on. Try google.

[musicman]

from the chron comments:

Middown is the primary breeding ground for the 30K Millionaire, it is festooned with them. As long as status remains the most important thing in life, middtown will always survive.

LOL

[TheNiche]

from the chron comments:

Middown is the primary breeding ground for the 30K Millionaire, it is festooned with them. As long as status remains the most important thing in life, middtown will always survive.

LOL

We all know better than that. I give Midtown another decade, maybe fifteen years. As their apartments start to age, rents begin to decline (adjusted for inflation), and the air of exclusivity is lost forever, this lemming-like population will only move on to rape and pillage another inner city neighborhood that's cool because the man says it is.

[UrbaNerd]

We all know better than that. I give Midtown another decade, maybe fifteen years. As their apartments start to age, rents begin to decline (adjusted for inflation), and the air of exclusivity is lost forever, this lemming-like population will only move on to rape and pillage another inner city neighborhood that's cool because the man says it is.

And where do you supposed that will be, eh?

[musicman]

And where do you supposed that will be, eh?

he could tell you however there is a fee for that service.

[Houston19514]

EDIT: Btw, it's interesting that they say that Post Midtown kicked off Midtown's rejuvenation. Actually, Enron's land acquisitions and political clout are the true culprits, and Camden Midtown was the true pioneer. It's just that nobody wants to associate Midtown with scoundrels or too-quickly-aging apartments.

Not absolutely certain, but I think theNiche is confused. I do not recall any Enron purchase of property in Midtown. He might be confusing it with a purchase/investment they made in the area east of Hwy 59 (east of MinuteMaid Park).

[brian0123]

We all know better than that. I give Midtown another decade, maybe fifteen years. As their apartments start to age, rents begin to decline (adjusted for inflation), and the air of exclusivity is lost forever, this lemming-like population will only move on to rape and pillage another inner city neighborhood that's cool because the man says it is.

Sorry Niche, but that comment pisses me off. First, have aging apartments destroyed Montrose/The Heights/Washington Ave/etc... or do you give those places another decade as well? I seem to remember in past threads (esp Washington Ave more urban than Midtown) that you were quite fond of Washington Avenue. However, by using your logic above, Washington Avenue (in another decade or so) should return to the craphole it once was.

Also, remember that a lot of the development you see in Midtown today occurred when Midtown was an ultra ghetto, not necessarily "hip" place to live. The reason it occurred was because of the location, convenience, and access this chunk of land has to Downtown, the Med Center, Museums, Montrose, etc. My wife and I bought our townhouse in Midtown for this very reason... not because we are lemmings or the man told us to.

[TheNiche]

Not absolutely certain, but I think theNiche is confused. I do not recall any Enron purchase of property in Midtown. He might be confusing it with a purchase/investment they made in the area east of Hwy 59 (east of MinuteMaid Park).

No, I'm definitely talking about Midtown. Multiple independent sources conveyed the same story. I know that Enron also had real estate elsewhere in town, but my understanding was that they were very heavy on Midtown and especially politically active about it.

[TheNiche]

Sorry Niche, but that comment pisses me off. First, have aging apartments destroyed Montrose/The Heights/Washington Ave/etc... or do you give those places another decade as well? I seem to remember in past threads (esp Washington Ave more urban than Midtown) that you were quite fond of Washington Avenue. However, by using your logic above, Washington Avenue (in another decade or so) should return to the craphole it once was.

Also, remember that a lot of the development you see in Midtown today occurred when Midtown was an ultra ghetto, not necessarily "hip" place to live. The reason it occurred was because of the location, convenience, and access this chunk of land has to Downtown, the Med Center, Museums, Montrose, etc. My wife and I bought our townhouse in Midtown for this very reason... not because we are lemmings or the man told us to.

Very few parts of Houston have so many apartment complexes so densely clustered as the northwest quadrant of Midtown. There haven't actually been all that many new apartment complexes built within the Washington Avenue corridor or in the Heights (yet), and although there has been plenty of new construction in the Montrose area, individual apartment complexes are fairly well spread out.

Looking strictly at the proximity of complexes, Midtown has a situation that is more akin to Gulfton than to Montrose. And don't forget that Gulfton is very well located relative to the Galleria and other employment centers, and that it is adjacent to the McMansions of Bellaire which themselves are proof that the location could be desirable but not for the crappy old apartments.

All it would take is for a couple of badly-managed apartment complexes to age poorly, for rents to decline, and for demographics to trend in the wrong direction, and Midtown's fate could be sealed by way of a slow-motion domino effect. These kinds of things happen with apartments, and they're usually very predictable. Can you think of any other neighborhood in Texas with a very large concentration of apartments that has not declined over time? And it is important to clarify Texas as the geography of interest because we have very few geographic of political barriers to new development, unlike cities such as San Francisco or New York, where supply-side barriers ensure that inner-city neighborhoods will forever remain attractive to the yuppies.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that Midtown is destined to become the next Gulfton. It is better-located relative to employment centers and is essentially at the center of our transportation systems. An exodus of lemming-like yuppies is destined, but those that will replace them will be average folks who live somewhere for practical reasons and not because it's the scene. They make good neighbors, but don't justify as much pricey or dense new construction.

Central Houston has plenty of very well-located underdeveloped neighborhoods and few barriers to entry on new development, allowing the lemming-like yuppies to engage in their naturally flighty behavior rather than cooping them up and limiting their options. Washington Avenue is a nascent scene, but as apartments go, it has a lot of room to grow. The land area of the Washington Avenue corridor is about three times that of Midtown, after all. The next scene that appeals to lemming-like yuppies could be almost anywhere, including Third Ward, the East End (esp. inside of Lockwood or south of Harrisburg), or the Near Northside. Probably not Fifth Ward, which is more geographically removed from any of the other inner city neighborhoods. It will not be the Heights; there's too much NIMBY political clout there, the existing demographics tend to be older and less edgy, and land prices are already too high.

[MyEvilTwin]

Very few parts of Houston have so many apartment complexes so densely clustered as the northwest quadrant of Midtown. There haven't actually been all that many new apartment complexes built within the Washington Avenue corridor or in the Heights (yet), and although there has been plenty of new construction in the Montrose area, individual apartment complexes are fairly well spread out.

...

All it would take is for a couple of badly-managed apartment complexes to age poorly, for rents to decline, and for demographics to trend in the wrong direction, and Midtown's fate could be sealed by way of a slow-motion domino effect. These kinds of things happen with apartments, and they're usually very predictable. Can you think of any other neighborhood in Texas with a very large concentration of apartments that has not declined over time? And it is important to clarify Texas as the geography of interest because we have very few geographic of political barriers to new development, unlike cities such as San Francisco or New York, where supply-side barriers ensure that inner-city neighborhoods will forever remain attractive to the yuppies.

Maybe Westcreek? At least in relation specifically to the "Northwest quadrant of Midtown" I'd guess the complexes centered around Westcreek Ln between San Felipe and Westheimer seem fairly comparable in units. Keeping in mind that much of the development in that area of Midtown was or became Condos... If what you're referring to as the Northwest quadrant is strictly west of Brazos, there aren't all THAT many units there, really. My office looks right over it.

Anyhow, the apartments themselves in the Westcreek area may have declined in value over time -- seems like just part of the natural process in our non-bubble Houston economy -- but they haven't exactly turned into a neighborhood of blight, nor have they pulled down the property values at Afton Oaks (right across Westheimer) with them, have they?

Not that I'd be all that comfortable investing in Midtown property myself... But my fear there wouldn't be the "lemming yuppie" apartments so much as the fact that it's been booming for a full economic cycle and there are still too many run-down / undeveloped areas to make me comfortable. I'm no real estate pro, but if I were hypothesizing, I'd worry as much about the long-term viability of key businesses like the midtown Randall's as the abundance of apartments in the area if I were considering a Midtown investment. Not that they're unrelated... Randalls needs the "lemming yuppies". (Feel free to correct me if I'm overlooking anything obvious!)

Edited July 6, 2009 by MyEvilTwin

[brian0123]

Very few parts of Houston have so many apartment complexes so densely clustered as the northwest quadrant of Midtown. There haven't actually been all that many new apartment complexes built within the Washington Avenue corridor or in the Heights (yet), and although there has been plenty of new construction in the Montrose area, individual apartment complexes are fairly well spread out.

The apartment section of Midtown (even though it's what most people think of when they think Midtown) is not all of Midtown. On the other side of Midtown, there is a huge swath of very nice town homes owned by non-party types... and the town homes are in high demand. We are in the middle of a horrible recession, and the house behind me just sold in two weeks, and the one across the street has been on the market 1 1/2 weeks and I just drove by on the way home for lunch and it has an Option Pending sign on it. I agree that poor mgmt can bring down apartments, but I fail to see how they will bring the ENTIRE Midtown area down. Gulfton is a so so example (even though it is outer loop). They might be crap, but they haven't brought down nearby Bellaire.

I mentioned Washington Ave as an example because it does have a lot of apartments too (i.e. the Memorial Heights areas, CORE apts, Jackson Hill, and what about Archstone taking the ENTIRE Washington block from Studemont to Heights Blvd?)

Looking strictly at the proximity of complexes, Midtown has a situation that is more akin to Gulfton than to Montrose. And don't forget that Gulfton is very well located relative to the Galleria and other employment centers, and that it is adjacent to the McMansions of Bellaire which themselves are proof that the location could be desirable but not for the crappy old apartments.

All it would take is for a couple of badly-managed apartment complexes to age poorly, for rents to decline, and for demographics to trend in the wrong direction, and Midtown's fate could be sealed by way of a slow-motion domino effect.

Again, I think you are focusing on Midtown as an apartment area... when town homes (and other single family residences south of Elgin) take up a lot more blocks than the apartments in Midtown. Also, the largest land holder in Midtown is HCC, and they are going to be spending millions upgrading their campus and surrounding properties soon. The MMD will be collecting $$$ from them for a long time and will continue to funnel that into district improvements.

Yes, apartments make up SOME of Midtown... but large businesses, town houses, single family residences, and govt. entities make up the other... and they operate independent of any club scene.

[TheNiche]

Maybe Westcreek? At least in relation specifically to the "Northwest quadrant of Midtown" I'd guess the complexes centered around Westcreek Ln between San Felipe and Westheimer seem fairly comparable in units. Keeping in mind that much of the development in that area of Midtown was or became Condos... If what you're referring to as the Northwest quadrant is strictly west of Brazos, there aren't all THAT many units there, really. My office looks right over it.

Anyhow, the apartments themselves in the Westcreek area may have declined in value over time -- seems like just part of the natural process in our non-bubble Houston economy -- but they haven't exactly turned into a neighborhood of blight, nor have they pulled down the property values at Afton Oaks (right across Westheimer) with them, have they?

Not that I'd be all that comfortable investing in Midtown property myself... But my fear there wouldn't be the "lemming yuppie" apartments so much as the fact that it's been booming for a full economic cycle and there are still too many run-down / undeveloped areas to make me comfortable. I'm no real estate pro, but if I were hypothesizing, I'd worry as much about the long-term viability of key businesses like the midtown Randall's as the abundance of apartments in the area if I were considering a Midtown investment. Not that they're unrelated... Randalls needs the "lemming yuppies". (Feel free to correct me if I'm overlooking anything obvious!)

When I'm talking about the northwest quadrant of Midtown, I'm using Main Street and McGowen as my southern boundaries. This includes Camden Midtown, which I'd point to as a leading indicator of things to come.

Westcreek is kind of unique in that it was originally developed as one single apartment complex with 1,200+ units. These days it has two different owners and two different leasing offices, but the management company is the same one and they still run it pretty much like it's one big property. All together, it's probably one of the two or three largest apartment complexes in Houston. But if you view Westcreek and some of the other apartments that have been nearby in the context of the former Mid Lane "scene", then actually there's definitely something to be said for your example. The current tenant base is somewhat youthful, but not especially hip or cool, not nouveau riche, and is very practical. They don't scare people away from adjacent neighborhoods, but they don't add much to them either.

I think that Midtown has at least another decade of growth to look forward to. By that time, hopefully, the population will be sufficiently large to at least support critical neighborhood infrastructure. In the long run, the nature of businesses in transitioning neighborhoods may change, but history has shown that businesses of some form or another will continue to operate in the spaces available.

[TheNiche]

The apartment section of Midtown (even though it's what most people think of when they think Midtown) is not all of Midtown. On the other side of Midtown, there is a huge swath of very nice town homes owned by non-party types... and the town homes are in high demand. We are in the middle of a horrible recession, and the house behind me just sold in two weeks, and the one across the street has been on the market 1 1/2 weeks and I just drove by on the way home for lunch and it has an Option Pending sign on it. I agree that poor mgmt can bring down apartments, but I fail to see how they will bring the ENTIRE Midtown area down. Gulfton is a so so example (even though it is outer loop). They might be crap, but they haven't brought down nearby Bellaire.

The Third Ward side of Midtown does have a different character, has only one big apartment complex (Ventana), and will benefit as development eats further into parts of the Third Ward across 288, displacing nuisance populations. But the reason I'm talking about Midtown in a broad sense even in the context of a topic about apartments that has narrower geographic relevance is for the reason that you pointed out at the top of your post. When most people say "Midtown", they are really talking about the northwest quadrant. Our disagreement is largely semantic and does not necessarily apply to your household.

I mentioned Washington Ave as an example because it does have a lot of apartments too (i.e. the Memorial Heights areas, CORE apts, Jackson Hill, and what about Archstone taking the ENTIRE Washington block from Studemont to Heights Blvd?)

You mentioned Archstone in Memorial Heights, but it's going to be recycled over about the next ten years into new higher-density housing. As of today, you may as well view it as vacant land. What is there does not detract from the area, nor will it ever have the opportunity to detract. What will be built will in decades to come will pose the same kinds of risks as I'm identifying for Midtown. Otherwise, you're absolutely correct that there are other apartments along the corridor, but they are pretty spread out. I'm not saying that the Washington Avenue corridor (which has areas like Rice Military that like east Midtown don't have much apartment exposure but that are getting thrown into the discussion anyway) is immune to the processes that I was discussing in Midtown, just that they aren't as far along in the cycle.

I mentioned Washington Ave as an example because it does have a lot of apartments too (i.e. the Memorial Heights areas, CORE apts, Jackson Hill, and what about Archstone taking the ENTIRE Washington block from Studemont to Heights Blvd?)

Again, I think you are focusing on Midtown as an apartment area... when town homes (and other single family residences south of Elgin) take up a lot more blocks than the apartments in Midtown. Also, the largest land holder in Midtown is HCC, and they are going to be spending millions upgrading their campus and surrounding properties soon. The MMD will be collecting $$$ from them for a long time and will continue to funnel that into district improvements.

Yes, apartments make up SOME of Midtown... but large businesses, town houses, single family residences, and govt. entities make up the other... and they operate independent of any club scene.

It seems unlikely that the Midtown Management District will be collecting tax revenues from properties owned by the Houston Community College System. Government-owned properties are not taxed.

In time, it may behoove you to try and create an independent identity for east Midtown. Whether you like it or not, you are going to get associated with discussions about Midtown issues. And in the eyes of many ignorant people (especially the trendy types), there's going to be a tendency to determine guilt by association. And whether it makes sense or not, the good money is leading the lemming-like yuppies around, the bad money is following the lemming-like yuppies around, and the ugly money is passive. It all comes back to influence land values.

[MyEvilTwin]

When I'm talking about the northwest quadrant of Midtown, I'm using Main Street and McGowen as my southern boundaries. This includes Camden Midtown, which I'd point to as a leading indicator of things to come.

Westcreek is kind of unique in that it was originally developed as one single apartment complex with 1,200+ units. These days it has two different owners and two different leasing offices, but the management company is the same one and they still run it pretty much like it's one big property. All together, it's probably one of the two or three largest apartment complexes in Houston. But if you view Westcreek and some of the other apartments that have been nearby in the context of the former Mid Lane "scene", then actually there's definitely something to be said for your example. The current tenant base is somewhat youthful, but not especially hip or cool, not nouveau riche, and is very practical. They don't scare people away from adjacent neighborhoods, but they don't add much to them either.

I think that Midtown has at least another decade of growth to look forward to. By that time, hopefully, the population will be sufficiently large to at least support critical neighborhood infrastructure. In the long run, the nature of businesses in transitioning neighborhoods may change, but history has shown that businesses of some form or another will continue to operate in the spaces available.

I don't think that's exactly correct... Westcreek started as two separate complexes (Westcreek and... Avalon Square, I think?), which were later merged (maybe in the early '90s?) and more recently re-split. I was also including the Park at Westcreek (a third complex, developed later) in the Westcreek set. But I can't argue with most of your points. Your characterization of the current Westcreek crowd seems about right... but was the original Westcreek tenant base something more like today's Midtowners? I don't know -- that predates me.

At least one of the complexes in Midtown (Post?) brought street-level retail with it. That's a plus for the neighborhood. It's too bad more didn't do so.

[lockmat]

You mentioned Archstone in Memorial Heights, but it's going to be recycled over about the next ten years into new higher-density housing.

Are you implying a high-rise?

[Houston19514]

No, I'm definitely talking about Midtown. Multiple independent sources conveyed the same story. I know that Enron also had real estate elsewhere in town, but my understanding was that they were very heavy on Midtown and especially politically active about it.

Oh, so you found something about it using both Google and Yahoo? ;-)

[TheNiche]

I don't think that's exactly correct... Westcreek started as two separate complexes (Westcreek and... Avalon Square, I think?), which were later merged (maybe in the early '90s?) and more recently re-split.

I'm not going to say that that's an impossibility, but I hadn't heard about it before now, and both sides of Westcreek were built exactly the same.

Are you implying a high-rise?

Not at all. Think about Esplanade at Hermann Circle, then multiply it several times over one right next to the other.

[TheNiche]

Oh, so you found something about it using both Google and Yahoo? ;-)

Nope, from talking to folks in the know that were here and in business when it was all going on.