Megachurches

[RedScare]

DJ:

These are Churches, not Fortune 500 companies. True, they may not be doing anything illegal, but shouldn't a church and its pastor aspire to something higher than bare legality? Aren't churches supposed to preach and teach morality? How can you teach morality, if you are 'morally questionable'. And why should I or anyone listen to a preacher who chooses his morality (stem cell research bad...my million dollar house and death penalty good)?

[Casual Observer]

Thank You Rescare.

DJ - you've totally missed my point. I HAVE been arguing the morality this whole time, not the legality.

My point remains - I'll never trust a man who tells me to put God first and give all that I have in his name, only to see him not do the same. I'm no scholar, but I'll bet my pension that Mr. Dollar and his 2 Rolls Royces are NOT getting into heaven.

As for the legality of it all, I don't mind churches being tax exempt - but I think we need better tax laws to limit their exemptions.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Thank You Rescare.

DJ - you've totally missed my point. I HAVE been arguing the morality this whole time, not the legality.

My point remains - I'll never trust a man who tells me to put God first and give all that I have in his name, only to see him not do the same. I'm no scholar, but I'll bet my pension that Mr. Dollar and his 2 Rolls Royces are NOT getting into heaven.

As for the legality of it all, I don't mind churches being tax exempt - but I think we need better tax laws to limit their exemptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Casual Observer, I've been getting your point. I actually agree with you and RedScare.

My point is that there's gotta be a legitimate reason why this bling bling pastor or bling bling church thing is acceptable in our society, and I'm only trying to understand the whole concept. To be honest, I'm baffled.

Even though a lot of us may be on the same page when it comes to morality taking a backseat in a lot of these megachurches, SOMEONE out there keeps giving these people money. There's gotta be a reason behind it. I'm trying to put myself in the pastor's point of view to see what those reasons are.

And not to argue, but just to clarify, do you believe EVERY rich person is going to hell, or just that Dollar dude with da Rolls Royces, and why?

[Casual Observer]

And not to argue, but just to clarify, do you believe EVERY rich person is going to hell, or just that Dollar dude with da Rolls Royces, and why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the point you've been missing. I don't think rich people are going to hell. I however think that those who choose to live a life for God, yet still worship their money will go to hell.

Mr. "If I don't make Dollars then it don't make sense" is going straight to hell from what you've told me. Why? Because he's made the choice to lead others to God here on Earth. He either made that choice by one of two reasons: he felt like God asked/told him to, or he just thought he could get by/make money by doing so.

If he's doing what he thinks God has asked/told him to do - then he's definately going to hell because theres no way the God Christianity would advocate driving a 150k car when a 30k car will do just fine. The other 120k could go to any community type organization to help the community and spread God's word of peace and good will towards all. But is he doing that? Nope.

If he got into preaching for the wrong reasons, and this is where he's ended up - then again, he's going to hell. He's blastphomous in the face of God driving a 150k car. Why? Because the same reason I listed above applies here.

Now look - I'm not a very spiritual man - and on some days I'm not spritual at all - but common sense is common sense. Based on everything I've ever read & heard told about Jesus, is that he was a very humble man. Humility is not found in a Rolls Royce.

By chosing to represent God here on earth, you have to be prepared to sacrifice all to show God's love. Do you think Dollar Bill going to sell either of those Rolls Royces?

So in conclusion - rich doesn't equal hell. Greed does however.

[DJ V Lawrence]

This is the point you've been missing. I don't think rich people are going to hell. I however think that those who choose to live a life for God, yet still worship their money will go to hell.

Mr. "If I don't make Dollars then it don't make sense" is going straight to hell from what you've told me. Why? Because he's made the choice to lead others to God here on Earth. He either made that choice by one of two reasons: he felt like God asked/told him to, or he just thought he could get by/make money by doing so.

If he's doing what he thinks God has asked/told him to do - then he's definately going to hell because theres no way the God Christianity would advocate driving a 150k car when a 30k car will do just fine. The other 120k could go to any community type organization to help the community and spread God's word of peace and good will towards all. But is he doing that? Nope.

If he got into preaching for the wrong reasons, and this is where he's ended up - then again, he's going to hell. He's blastphomous in the face of God driving a 150k car. Why? Because the same reason I listed above applies here.

Now look - I'm not a very spiritual man - and on some days I'm not spritual at all - but common sense is common sense. Based on everything I've ever read & heard told about Jesus, is that he was a very humble man. Humility is not found in a Rolls Royce.

By chosing to represent God here on earth, you have to be prepared to sacrifice all to show God's love. Do you think Dollar Bill going to sell either of those Rolls Royces?

So in conclusion - rich doesn't equal hell. Greed does however.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Respect to da Casual Dude for that clarification.

Now can someone try to clarify the previous question: a legitimate reason why this bling bling pastor or bling bling church thing is acceptable in our society?

[RedScare]

I think it is really simple. We (Americans) want it to be acceptable. The Bible says that the rich are going to hell. The poor are rewarded. The humble are rewarded. This is not a good sign in an uber materialistic culture. People don't like being told that they are going to hell. Eventually, they stop going to church, so they don't have to hear it.

Low attendance is not good for the preacher business. Enterprising preachers (especially evangelicals, who are not burdened by a church doctrine) start figuring out that if they preach materialism is not all bad (Osteen even says that God WANTS you to be successful/wealthy), then people will come back and fill the coffers.

It matters not that the Bible not only doesn't say this, but even warns against it. The flock is being told that they need not feel guilty for being materialistic, as long as they accept Jesus as their savior. The flock says 'Hey, that's easy!' Everyone is happy. No one notices or cares that this is not what the Bible says. My preacher says its OK and I feel good. Isn't that all that matters?

Therefore, if it is OK by God to be rich, then Rev Dollar's Rolls, Rev Joel's and Dr. Young's million dollar houses become testament to the rewards of believing in Jesus. Believing will make you rich!

[Casual Observer]

When I die I hope I get a seat next to Joel in heaven..

Jesus? Who's that?

[Guest Mastermindbuilder]

I've really have nothing to say about this thread. But, it's good to see houston has another tourist destination built.

[HOUCAJUN]

DJ:

These are Churches, not Fortune 500 companies.  True, they may not be doing anything illegal, but shouldn't a church and its pastor aspire to something higher than bare legality?  Aren't churches supposed to preach and teach morality?  How can you teach morality, if you are 'morally questionable'.  And why should I or anyone listen to a preacher who chooses his morality (stem cell research bad...my million dollar house and death penalty good)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well then,who do you listen to or will listen to? frst of all Jesus wasn't poor and God definitely isn't. Jesus also was anything but humble, he stirred up every place he went.get a good understanding of the Bible first before stating hear say comments( i heard Jesus was an humble man)..... please.An humble man doesn't get crucified. Did i say Jesus wasn't poor?Just in case someone missed that.He lived very well. "Should a church and its pastor aspire to something higher." Higher as in what?Spreading the gospel throuought the world,Getting people saved around the world. Aren't they doing that? Why don't you join a church and make a DIFFERENCE instead of sitting here critcizing on baseless and unreasearched knowledge. If you feel more comfortable witha preacher who lives in a $100,000 house then so be it .Then you'll say that's too much and want him to live in a $60,000 house and then that "ll be too materialistic and you'll think he should live in a one bedroom apartment and so on. Look, God blesses those who walk in obedience with him and he blesses you in every area in your life.Even money. It's okay ,I said the "M" word, don't faint on me. Those preachers who misuse church money will be dealt with by God. Don't worry. In the mean time,start focusing on yourself and what you are doing and not doing. Seems like you're more caught up on materialistic things than the people you are crticizing.Knowledge is key.Peace out.

[RedScare]

"get a good understanding of the Bible first before stating hear say comments( i heard Jesus was an humble man)..... "

Interesting remarks, considering the bible is a collection of hearsay remarks. It was written decades after the events it depicts.

[Guest danax]

I've really have nothing to say about this thread. But, it's good to see houston has another tourist destination built.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not trying to be negative but they've created a miniature hell on Earth.

Traffic hell, that is. I made the mistake of going over to Kirby around 59 today. I hadn't seen bumper to bumper side-street traffic like that since I lived in L.A. It took me about 15 minutes to get from Bissonett to Richmond. It's just a bad coincidence that one of our already worst little sections traffic-wise will now be a total mess while services at Lakewood are happening.

The guy selling roses was center stage. Just imagine when the word gets out to the homeless population what's going on over there.

[Casual Observer]

Just imagine when the word gets out to the homeless population what's going on over there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

saaaaaaaaaaweet. I hope all the bums in the city go there looking for a hand-out. Since I never frequent that area, that should open the rest of city and ensure I'll be able to once again pull up to an intersection without having to roll-up my windows.

Sorry suckers - but I'm looking out for me on this one!

[pineda]

That preacher is not setting a very good example in God's name

And the flip-flop of this statement is the question, who is?

Maybe the late Mother Teresa, who else?

p.s. see you in church tomorrow!

[HOUCAJUN]

"get a good understanding of the Bible first before stating hear say comments( i heard Jesus was an humble man)..... "

Interesting remarks, considering the bible is a collection of hearsay remarks.  It was written decades after the events it depicts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

heree is a site to refer to http://www.ibs.org/bibles/about/index.php

[RedScare]

"These earliest accounts were handed on from generation to generation in songs, narratives, and poetry.

In those early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts with great detail and accuracy."

Thanks for the link. It confirmed my statement.

I have not come about my opinions lightly. On the contrary, having gone to a parochial school, I spent a lot of time in church. But, instead of accepting things that troubled me, I investigated them. The result is my firm agnosticism.

My statements on this board are not meant to challenge or change your beliefs. Neither will your posts change mine. They were formed by a lot more research than 4 or 5 paragraphs written by someone who disagrees with me.

I still spend a lot of time researching the sociology and psychology of religin. It intrigues me how and why people choose to believe in a god. Being American, I am most interested in American beliefs, especially non-denominational Christians. In the last decade, I have seen religion politicized. It seems America had an epiphany. But, in looking closer, what I see, is that Americans did not like conforming their behavior to religious rules...so they change the rules to conform to their behavior. The churches changed their message, not the churchgoers. It is just that now the message does not demand sacrifice...and so it is easier to be a believer.

That was and is my point. It is not meant to challenge you or your beliefs. I look forward to reading your opinions as well.

[HOUCAJUN]

"These earliest accounts were handed on from generation to generation in songs, narratives, and poetry.

In those early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts with great detail and accuracy."

Thanks for the link.  It confirmed my statement.

I have not come about my opinions lightly.  On the contrary, having gone to a parochial school, I spent a lot of time in church.  But, instead of accepting things that troubled me, I investigated them.  The result is my firm agnosticism.

My statements on this board are not meant to challenge or change your beliefs.  Neither will your posts change mine.  They were formed by a lot more research than 4 or 5 paragraphs written by someone who disagrees with me.

I still spend a lot of time researching the sociology and psychology of religin.  It intrigues me how and why people choose to believe in a god.  Being American, I am most interested in American beliefs, especially non-denominational Christians.  In the last decade, I have seen religion politicized.  It seems America had an epiphany.  But, in looking closer, what I see, is that Americans did not like conforming their behavior to religious rules...so they change the rules to conform to their behavior.  The churches changed their message, not the churchgoers.  It is just that now the message does not demand sacrifice...and so it is easier to be a believer.

That was and is my point.  It is not meant to challenge you or your beliefs.  I look forward to reading your opinions as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what are american beliefs?What religious rules are you refering to and how did americans change rules? it doesn't make sense."the message does not demand sacrifice." have you heard of consecration of the spirit?What message were you listening to,since you don't go to church? What churches are you refering to?Your view is so clouded.

[genghiskahn]

what are american beliefs?What religious rules are you refering to and how did americans change rules? it doesn't make sense."the message does not demand sacrifice." have you heard of consecration of the spirit?What message were you listening to,since you don't go to church? What churches are you refering to?Your view is so clouded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It does no good to throw around supposed theological terms (which you have misused, by the way) to explain away clear violations of Christian doctrine.

The point that RedScare was making (and he was making his point rather well) was that many American Christians claim allegiance to the Bible on the one hand but on the other hand reject the clear teachings of what the Bible says. Look, as a devout protestant, I'm as orthodox as they come but I'll take RedScare's side in this portion of the argument, at least.

Did i say Jesus wasn't poor?Just in case someone missed that.He lived very well.

I'm not going to do lenghty posts of Bible verses in the forum, that would be counterproductive. However, I'll give you the link in case you want to look it up yourself. You didn't say Jesus was poor, he said it himself.

Jesus also was anything but humble, he stirred up every place he went.

Wow. This is "Christianity" you're talking about, right? Because in this one statement you've challenged the veracity of the Bible more than anything RedScare has said. He's said it's an untrustworthy collection of folk tales (my summary of his position, not his own), you've called it a flat-out lie.

But, in looking closer, what I see, is that Americans did not like conforming their behavior to religious rules...so they change the rules to conform to their behavior.

This would make an interesting sociological study. Rooted in American independence and anti-authoritarianism, churches in all sectors of Christianity (liberal and conservative [theologically speaking]) have "modified" what's clear for what's convenient.

HOUCAJUN, I'm not trying to rip you a new one, but please strive for consistency with the foundational tenets of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that opulence isn't one of the great Christian virtues (or, should I say, it shouldn't be one of the great Christian virtues). The danger for many churches, but mega-churches especially, is the subtle seduction of wealth and power (or, in traditional terms, avarice and vanity). If a businessman or rapper or sports star lives royally, they're living out the socially accepted lifestyle of their profession (right or wrong). If a minister lives like royalty, it gives others reason to question the minister's devotion to what he espouses. Excess is going to mean something different for each person; what I'm trying to do is to show that excess actually is something to consider rather than something to "live up".

[DJ V Lawrence]

If a businessman or rapper or sports star lives royally, they're living out the socially accepted lifestyle of their profession (right or wrong).  If a minister lives like royalty, it gives others reason to question the minister's devotion to what he espouses.  Excess is going to mean something different for each person; what I'm trying to do is to show that excess actually is something to consider rather than something to "live up".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, like, if thousands of people are flocking to a larger church, and are all donating to the church in order to pay the pastor 6 to 7 figures, and are paying for luxuries seen every week in that church, wouldn't that mean that those people, and society as a whole, already accepts the thought of a pastor living in royalty?

[editor]

It would seem that if the parishioners were unhappy with a preacher's standard of living, they could simply change the situation by having him removed (if the church's structure allows such a thing) or by going to another church that better suits them.

Almost all of these mega-churches are so-called "non-denominational," so it's not like they're breaking with their religion if they go somewhere else.

I read several interesting studies about megachurches over the last few days. One came to the conclusion that there are no "non-denominational" megachurches because if you have that many people in your group, you've effectively created your own denomination.

Something else I read was a little more critical, saying "non-denominational" was a nice way of saying "least common denominator." Food for thought.

[kjb434]

Editor, Redscare, and genghiskah,

Growing up catholic and going to catholic school, they actually taught much of the aspects you are emphasizing. I was repeatedly taught in my catholic schooling that bible is just another facet to our faith and not in anyway the central piece to it.

I couldn't quote much from it if you asked. We didn't have reall bible study like most protestant and megachurches. We learned more about what it really know about the true history of the Old and New Testament in comparison to Bible. The book isn't perfect in the historical terms and doesn't claim to be. The truths are much more important than the true facts of the events.

Now all grown up, I still believe very much in god and christ, but i don't go to church or read the bible. Actually, i don't even own one. After college, I haven't really did much theological education (looking into your faith critically).

The biggest thing I see in churches is that people get a sense of community and belonging from being a part of it. There faith is a common element that brings them together. Just like me and most of my friends being gay is a common element. Since homosexuality is objected more by the physical churches than the faith itself, i have know problem continuing to believe much of it.

And please, no one start qoting Leviticus. To understand that you need to know a lot about the Jewish society at that time realize much of there laws. Which now most are perceived as ridiculous and quite illegal.

[RedScare]

I agree with what you say. I believe that most American churchgoers also agree with you. Churches are communities, and communities help each other and so on.

The belief system is another story. And I believe many churchgoers have a shallow belief. Their choice, but my opinion.

BTW, I was raised Catholic as well. Can't recite many Bible verses, either.

[HOUCAJUN]

Well genghi or whatever your name is .while i have several responses and re intrpretations of the scriptures that you have posted, explaining them to you would be a waste of time since your interpretation lacks revelation. do you need me to explain that. Or is that too theological for you. So, i wont Rip you one so you can keep the little dignity you have left.

[Nakatosh]

Yes, he did just say that . Ouch! Let's close this thread and move on. You guys are all crazy if you asked me. The new Lakewwod church is good for Houston. another tourist attraction. Look on the bright side, we can't get astro world to remodel,so why not Compaq.Yall are still crazy though.

[Casual Observer]

Well genghi or whatever your name is .while i have several responses  and re intrpretations of the scriptures that you have posted, explaining them to  you would be a waste of time since your interpretation lacks revelation. do you need me to explain that. Or is that too theological for you. So, i wont Rip you one so you can keep the little dignity you have left.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha! Ha! You're getting all emotional over a simple discussion.

Newsflash - neither of you can prove the truth behind one scripture in the bible. It's a 100% faith driven document.

Believe it.

[uncertaintraveler]

Newsflash - neither of you can prove the truth behind one scripture in the bible. It's a 100% faith driven document.

Believe it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps this is a good time to remember that using "absolutes" is often shortsighted and results in incorrect statements, particularly when it comes to matters of religion.

For example, as to certain biblical scriptures, it is very easy to prove the truth behind them.

Was there a man named Peter? Yes, and that can be proved factually.

Did he go on several missionary journeys? Yes, and that can be proved factually.

Was he shipwrecked on Patmos? Yes, and that can be proved factually.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point. On issues that require precise commentary, using "absolutes" just muddies the waters.

[Casual Observer]

Okay holy-roller, tell your kids to stop telling my kids they're going to hell, its getting old already.

[uncertaintraveler]

Okay holy-roller, tell your kids to stop telling my kids they're going to hell, its getting old already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know for whom the not-so Casual Observer's comment was intended, but I'd like to go on record as saying that I do not have any kids.

[Casual Observer]

It was aimed at you. You were too busy cross-referencing scripture to notice.

I am correct in my previous statement - You can't prove anymore that Jesus walked the earth than you can George Washington.

Please don't even bother with the logistics because you lack the two things needed: photographic evidence and DNA. Neither existed in their times. So for all we know, they've both been made up an passed on from generation to generation to generation.

Scribblings on a scroll, and paintings don't count either.

No matter what you reply with, I'll simply reply with: "Prove it.."

[sevfiv]

You can't prove anymore that Jesus walked the earth than you can George Washington.

So for all we know, they've both been made up an passed on from generation to generation to generation.

Scribblings on a scroll, and paintings don't count either.

No matter what you reply with, I'll simply reply with: "Prove it.."

case closed!

[editor]

Okay holy-roller, tell your kids to stop telling my kids they're going to hell, its getting old already.

Chill, dude. You're starting to get out of hand.