Megachurches

[editor]

It's a better story when there are problems at a big church.  You can go back to the Swaggart and Baker situations for an example.  However improprieties happen at small churches too.  There are always cases of pastors getting into improper relationships, or money that turns up missing.  That is just human nature.  Bad things will always happen everywhere.  If you are trying to have a relationship with God, don't use other people's failings as a reason to stay away from church.  Focus on your own development.

You are correct. Corruption happens in churches of every size. It's one of the main reasons there are so many splinter church groups in places like West Virginia. In those cases, it's only a couple of dozen people affected. When it happens to a megachurch it attracts more attention because there are potentially tens of thousands of people affected. That's why the media report on those cases -- because they affect so many people.

Some of my former co-workers would regularly complain about their medium-sized (about 1,000 people) church's corruption problems in Fort Bend County. It happens all over, not just to the big names.

[pineda]

What's it going to be like when 16,000 are leaving one service, and 16,000 more are trying to get into the next???

A few of my relatives came to town last month and they all wanted to go check out Joel's church in person. I wasn't able to go with them. My brother, however, did go and said he was very worried when they drove up to the church because it was in kind of a remote location with little access. But, he also said that when the service was over, that Lakewood had all kinds of paid traffic personnel to direct traffic and that they were out of there in five minutes. He was very impressed with how well it was managed. Given those circumstances, and extrapolate them onto the Summit/Compaq/Lakewood, I'm sure Lakewood will take care of the situation in the best possible way in order to expedite the traffic flow. Personally, I'd like to go just to check out the fourth floor cafe to see the views of downtown Houston, and to see the transformation of the building.

[editor]

Maybe Lakewood will get its own exit off the Southwest Freeway. Lots of big companies get their own exits, so why not Lakewood?

Or even better -- they could build a parking garage down near the Houston Chronicle archive building and run their own light rail system to Compaq Center.

[MidtownCoog]

The news last night interviewed the people who live near their old locatoins.

When asked if they will miss the church they said:

"Heck now, smell ya later! It made our hood a mess on the weekends"

[Casual Observer]

I've never heard a sermon on homosexuality in any church I've been in.  What kind of church do you go to?  Or is it just some sterotype you've cooked up in your head?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I grew up in a baptist church, in a very religious community. Mostly Penacostals, Baptists, and Catholic. We had a token Luthern & Methodist church too.

Where I grew up (Louisiana) there we no quams with pastors & priests pointing out what is wrong in their view. Its nothing like here where all anyone preaches about are happy feelings. Maybe my upbringing is why I'm so jaded towards religon, Christianity in particular.

[RedScare]

It may all be Disneyland at Lakewood, but they're not all preaching happy. Ed Young keeps telling me to "Come Home", but 3 and a half years ago, he said I caused 9/11. I believe he also blamed my gay friends.

Not very happy talk.

(For those who are unaware, I would be known as a 'fornicator', because I have have sex outside of marriage...and LIKE it.)

[sevfiv]

and when ya can't get "married," it's damned if you do, damned if you don't!

(not that i am a big too on marriage in the first place...)

[ssullivan]

It may all be Disneyland at Lakewood, but they're not all preaching happy.  Ed Young keeps telling me to "Come Home", but 3 and a half years ago, he said I caused 9/11.  I believe he also blamed my gay friends.

Not very happy talk.

(For those who are unaware, I would be known as a 'fornicator', because I have have sex outside of marriage...and LIKE it.)

LOL, yeah I remember that comment. It was in response to something Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell said about 9/11 being caused by the gays, pro-lifers, women's libbers, divorced people, and everyone whose ever had sex out of wedlock, and probably a whole host of other "unholy" types.

So I'm sure I'm really to blame for it all too, since I fit a bunch of those categories.

Anyway, I find it sad that such comments are made because I think they do a ton more harm than good. They do nothing to unite people and promote understanding, but instead increase division.

For the record, I'm a gay fairly liberal lifelong United Methodist, who fortunately was never subjected to the "homos are gonna burn in hell!" preaching as a kid. But I know a LOT of people who heard that regularly and have a lot of healing they've had to do to overcome the scars it caused.

[kjb434]

ssullivan,

Do you attend Bering? I used to after I moved here and made lots of friend, but I left when they started talking about money too much and tithing.

I don't believe in tithe and any church that brings it up I leave. I understand Berings need for money, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

[MidtownCoog]

Flashback to when I was 5 (1975), and sent off the Summer Bible Camp at Easthaven Baptist.

They gave us all "play money" and we had to go to "play church" and tithe.

That still creeps me out to this day.

Kinda like the "pizza parties" at Sagemont Baptist.

Freakazoids!

[RedScare]

Flashback to when I was 5 (1975), and sent off the Summer Bible Camp at Easthaven Baptist.

They gave us all "play money" and we had to go to "play church" and tithe. 

That still creeps me out to this day.

Kinda like the "pizza parties" at Sagemont Baptist. 

Freakazoids!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, dude, that's disgusting. That sounds more like a skit on Saturday Night Live than real life. Even Catholics don't pull stunts like that (though, it has other issues).

[kjb434]

Yeah, typically in the Catholic church it depends on which parish you are in or the diocese on how they talk about money. I remember growing up and we had a wonderful old priest would always tell us that he hates to talk about money. And when the bishop asked him and the rest of the parishes to bring it up he wouldn't.

Too bad they forced him to retire when he reached that retirement age.

His homilies were always informative and never too preachy.

[dbigtex56]

Theology aside, there's questions I have about officially recognized religions:

How come liquor licenses can be denied if the applicant is within 1000 feet(? - or is it 1,500 now?) of a church? Most bars aren't even open on Sunday mornings. How does freedom of religion grant the right to interfere with other businesses?

Why are churches given tax-exempt status on real estate holdings not directly related to their missions? For example, a few years ago it was reported that the Rev-Dr Ed Young of 2nd Baptist lived tax-free in a $1mil+ house in the Memorial area. I thought Jesus said something about "rendering unto Caesar"... And it's my impression that Rev-Doc Young is well-compensated for his duties.

I've also heard that churches have been given special exemptions from local zoning laws, such as exceeding prescribed limits on the size of buildings, and parking requirements or restrictions. This probably isn't as much an issue in Houston as in other communities. Should status as an "official" religion afford the right to intrude on others' property values and quality of life? Seems wrong to me.

[RedScare]

State alcoholic beverage code requires the front door of a bar to be 300 feet from the front door of a church, school or hospital. The distance is measured out to the sidewalk and down the street, crossing streets at the corners...in other words, no jaywalking.

Houston has decided that the law means 'any door', but still measures down streets, etc.

Dr. Ed 'come home, you fornicators' Young probably lives in a house owned by the church, or a 'parsonage'. IRS rules and state law determines what a parsonage is, but I think it is a clear case of the church being chickensh_t.

Local exemptions are locally granted.

The clearest answer to why these things are done, is the sway that churches hold over the residents and elected officials. Christian leaders, though they control virtually everything important in the country, love to play martyr, and will lash out (or smite, as it were) at anyone invading their turf. This is, after all, big business.

[MidtownCoog]

I'd love to hear someone argue why a man of the cloth should live in luxury, when so many hard working people can barely get by day to day.

[ssullivan]

ssullivan,

Do you attend Bering?  I used to after I moved here and made lots of friend, but I left when they started talking about money too much and tithing.

I don't believe in tithe and any church that brings it up I leave.  I understand Berings need for money, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Yes, I do, and I can understand your point of view on that. Money talk in church is not my thing either, and I'm happy to report, it's not coming up right now. For a while it was, mainly because giving had sharply dropped off and the church was in a pretty tight financial bind. I guess I view it as an unfortunate, but necessary thing that sometimes has to come up.

I'm actually a fourth generation member of that church, as many many years ago my great-grandparents, grandparents, and mother (along with a host of her siblings and aunts and uncles) attended that church in the 1940s and 1950s when they all lived in Montrose.

[Guest danax]

I'd love to hear someone argue why a man of the cloth should live in luxury, when so many hard working people can barely get by day to day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These guys are not "holy men" who have found God. My opinion only, and I've never been to Lakewood or 2nd. Dr. Young's billboard turns me off; he looks like a shady salesman. Just my impressions. If you're really serious about finding out what the few holy men in history were talking about, you would need to find someone who's been there, and they wouldn't likely be in a mansion. Why would they, when they already have everything within them?

Most of the true holy men never looked for disciples, they were very picky because they knew that "the harvest was great but the laborers were few".

[Casual Observer]

If nothing else - it just doesn't look right, for the pastor to live in a 500,000 dollar house. There's nothing humble about that. I don't care if the church did pay for it. And if the church did pay for it, then its likely the church has spent millions over the years on things OTHER than the community - which to me, should always be the first priority.

[MidtownCoog]

I stand by my statement that for many, the road to heaven is paved with money.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I stand by my statement that for many, the road to heaven is paved with money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you see that one pastor in Atlanta that drives a Rolls-Royce to church that the congregation gave to him as a "gift?" I can't remember his name, but it was the one that was in Jermaine Dupris and Ludacris's "Welcome To Atlanta" video. Real famous dude.

Anywayz, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a second (no pun intended). Theroetically speaking, I agree 100% that a pastor living the rapper lifestyle (mad cash, big mansion(s), yachts, cars, etc.) hurts the church's credibility, and their good words on Sunday of giving back to the community sounds like an oximoron.

However, to the pastor, being a pastor is their JOB. If you as a lawyer, a nurse, construction worker, or whichever profession you are, could choose between living in a $80,000 house barely making it, or living in a million dollar mansion and still have MAD cash left over, and still have that same job in both senarios, which one would you choose? Honestly? I don't think ANY pastor who is living like that grew up thinking they would become a pastor. They probably grew up hoping to one day work a lawyer, businessman, or doctor, and to be rich and successful in their profession. Once they became a pastor, and saw that the fastlife opportunity was there, they saw their dream right there for the taking.

This is how a Pastor at a megachurch sees it: If a gangsta rapper, rock star, sports athlete, Playboy model, sleezy businessperson, or celebrity can live the fast life and enjoy being rich, then why can't a person who is preaching the word of God and doing something for the community be able to live comfortable as well?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I think that would be their argument.

[Casual Observer]

This is how a Pastor at a megachurch sees it: If a gangsta rapper, rock star, sports athlete, Playboy model, sleezy businessperson, or celebrity can live the fast life and enjoy being rich, then why can't a person who is preaching the word of God and doing something for the community be able to live comfortable as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And this is how the common man who is supposed to follow the megachurch's "MTV CRIBS" style pastor sees it: WRONG.

All the bible teaches is for the shepherds of God to be humble servants. There's nothing humble about those lifestyles. I can allow the logic behind Lakewood being built in the Compaq Center - that's okay. The church is communal property for all to come in and worship God. What's not cool is if Joel is taking limo's to and fro, living in a million dollar house, or any of the other excessive luxuries that are not symbolic of a "shepherd" for God. The only justification he has is that he's made his own money from his books so that he can live that way. If it weren't for that, he would be wrong 100%.

I'm not going to even try to figure the logic in the preacher from Atlanta who needs a Rolls Royce to get to church. I doubt he's written books or anything else to supplement his income so I'm sure we'll be seeing him in hell.

Also - why would someone who wants to lead and share his Christianity by example want to live like a Playboy Model, Actor, Sleezy Businessman, or even a Sports Star? They're all going to hell in a handbasket - why would someone so reverent want to do the same?

God = Humility.

[sevfiv]

yes, it would seem that:

opulence+conspicuous consumption+fast cars+million dollar houses ≠ god/humility

but that's just from a mathematical standpoint

[DJ V Lawrence]

I'm not going to even try to figure the logic in the preacher from Atlanta who needs a Rolls Royce to get to church. I doubt he's written books or anything else to supplement his income so I'm sure we'll be seeing him in hell.

Also - why would someone who wants to lead and share his Christianity by example want to live like a Playboy Model, Actor, Sleezy Businessman, or even a Sports Star? They're all going to hell in a handbasket - why would someone so reverent want to do the same?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think you're going to hell because you're rich. That would kinda suck, dude.

"Dude, I won the lottery! I'm going to hell!"

If that were true, no one would ever work again!

But my question is this: Who ever said that a pastor had to live humble? Is that something pastors actually preached in church, or is that just something that you (and me) both only assumed?

[RedScare]

Given what I'd be doing if I won the lottery, yeah, I'd be going to hell.

[Casual Observer]

You missed the point - I'm not talking about average people, I'm talking about the leaders of churches. I'm also only referring to those leaders of churches who have large salaries, large homes, expensive cars, and designer clothes - all off their congregation's dime. Church tithes should not be making rolls royce payments, or american express payments. Church tithes should be going back into the church - for the members, not the leader.

Modern Church = Typical Politics.

[YakuzaIce]

^^DJ

All the bible teaches is for the shepherds of God to be humble servants. There's nothing humble about those lifestyles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Regarding the RR guy. While I disagree with pastors necessarilly leading an oppulent lifestyle if the congregation truly gave it to him as a "gift" that seems better in my book than if he just used the churches money to buy it.

[Kirzania]

^^DJ

Regarding the RR guy.  While I disagree with pastors necessarilly leading an oppulent lifestyle if the congregation truly gave it to him as a "gift" that seems better in my book than if he just used the chirches money to buy it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aye. You can't tell someone what to do with money that's been freely given to them. Do you tell people what to do with their lottery winnings?

Although, I have to say, perhaps a better scheme/ploy/brilliant marketing idea would be to give some of this money to someone who needs it - some AIDS/Diabetes/Cancer campaign. (See: "Good guy routine to get more money.") Will someone please think of the write-offs?

[Casual Observer]

^^Exactly. That preacher is not setting a very good example in God's name, for others to follow - EITHER by: recieving large monetary gifts OR recieving a large paycheck from the church.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Aye. You can't tell someone what to do with money that's been freely given to them. Do you tell people what to do with their lottery winnings?

Although, I have to say, perhaps a better scheme/ploy/brilliant marketing idea would be to give some of this money to someone who needs it - some AIDS/Diabetes/Cancer campaign. (See: "Good guy routine to get more money.") Will someone please think of the write-offs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, Kirzania, GREAT profile pic, yo!

Also to clarify, the Atlanta Pastor's name is Pastor Creflo A. Dollar. There's a lot more than one Rolls-Royce to his name (TWO Rolls-Royces and a private jet). I have no opinion, but if case you didn't believe me, here's an article...

http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/0...34016_mz001.htm

Alright, to Casual Observer, once again, I'm only playing devil's advocate. I honestly have no opinion as to if a pastor with mad bling bling is a good thing or not. All I see is a country where everyone wants to live the American Dream, and people who are trying to reach that height of success with their occupations. Don't forget that there are people out there who actually GIVE donations every Sunday to these churches and don't care where that money ends up.

Do you really think Lakewood Church could have changed from a small congregation in a feed store to a congregation able to buyout Compaq Center overnight? Do you think Ed Young could have bought a mansion when he FIRST started preaching? Do you think my church at home (All Saints Lutheran) could have a tv audience of more than 140 different countries with a congregation size of around 150 people?

You're not going to hell for not donating to a church, and there's PLENTY of charities and organizations that you can donate to in order to help out the community. 250,000 people died in a tsunami less than a year ago, and I'm sure the people that survived it could use a new home or two. Cancer, AIDS, and many other diseases haven't been cured yet, and I'm sure they could use the research money. Red Cross could always use a volunteer. Even most of these megachurches have separate charity collections that go directly to the community that you can donate to (I think Lakewood did a campaign for the tsunami victims as well).

My point is this: These megachurches are doing NOTHING illegal. Just morally questionable. You can SEE where your money is going every week you attend a church. If you're at 2nd Baptist with Ed Young, you helped buy Ed Young's mansion. If you're with Creflo A. Dollar, you probably helped surprise him with TWO Rolls Royces. If you attend and donated to Lakewood Church, your money helped rent out the Compaq Center for 11 million a year, bought three big-screen jumbotrons, bought 2 waterfalls, bought all the equipment for tv production, built a children's bookstore, and helped Lakewood start up a Christian Record Label and nationwide music tour. And the reason why these things were purchased for all these people? Because you, (and that church), feel that the money being spent on all these things are things that are needed to keep the church going, and you feel that these are things that need to be done for our community.

Once again, I don't think it's right or wrong, but I'm just telling it like it is. There's nothing wrong with donating to church, but you can't just sit here, act surprised, and act like you don't know where the church officials at that church are putting the money you volunteered to give them.

[sevfiv]

Creflo A. Dollar

i think that was my name on the "pimp name generator"