West End Ball Park At 601 Andrews St.

[longhornguy]

Does anybody live in this area and have any opinions on the crime, traffic, etc?

I'm looking at Rice Military/Cottage Grove area and really like it because of the proximity to Memorial Park and Washington Ave.

I originally intended to get as close to Memorial Park as possible, but am interested in a property that is between Shepherd and Studemont, north of Washington, nearby West End Park.

This area does seem quite a bit more sketchy than the areas West of Shepherd, but it should be cleaned up in a few years.

I drove by West End Park at night the other day and did notice what seemed to be either bums or crack dealers, that is making me have second thoughts.

Anybody here live by West End Park off of Patterson?

[musicman]

This area does seem quite a bit more sketchy than the areas West of Shepherd, but it should be cleaned up in a few years.

should be and will be are two different things.

[longhornguy]

should be and will be are two different things.

I guess that means I should follow my hunch and not be too optimistic? It's literally only a couple of blocks away from Shepherd, right behind the Joy Yoga shopping center. A medium development with several gray exterior t/h's on Center and Patterson St.

The location is attractive because of the straight shot from Patterson out to I-10 and driving by West End Park at night is slightly unnerving.

Can anybody help with some opinions?

[musicman]

I guess that means I should follow my hunch and not be too optimistic?

being optimistic is fine...esp if you're active and want to help clean it up. otherwise, a touch of reality might be better.

[longhornguy]

being optimistic is fine...esp if you're active and want to help clean it up. otherwise, a touch of reality might be better.

That's a good point, I think that with the right mix of driven people in the area there will be large civic pushes to clean up the area, especially a greenspace with potential like West End Park.

I'm kind of curious as to why that hasn't begun, with the influx of people with $$$ to spend on these 300-400k t/h's.

Something doesn't seem to add up?

[musicman]

I'm kind of curious as to why that hasn't begun, with the influx of people with $$$ to spend on these 300-400k t/h's.

Something doesn't seem to add up?

no that's reality. there are many areas of houston just waiting to be revived.

[longhornguy]

no that's reality. there are many areas of houston just waiting to be revived.

Thank you, you've been extremely helpful

[RedScare]

Thank you, you've been extremely helpful

Has he been helpful? He never answered a single question. His comments could apply virtually anywhere that gentrification is occurring, most notably, his own neighborhood. He really hasn't told you anything.

As the west end has gentrified, the "easy" areas, as usual, gentrified first. Those would be the areas closest to Memorial Park and closet to Memorial Drive. The area between Houston Avenue and Shepherd/Durham remained largely untouched until 4 or 5 years ago. As such, the area is not very far along in the gentrification process. Washington Avenue itself remained stubbornly resistant to rehabilitation until 4 or 5 years ago.

When the gentrification came to Washington, it pretty much arrived with a vengeance. All up and down the avenue, new shopping centers, townhomes and apartments are being built, most within the last 2 or 3 years. As the housing jumped to the north of the avenue, it clustered around Durham and Heights/Yale. It is slowly moving north of Washington and west from Yale and east from Shepherd. As construction continues, land values increase, and more homes are sold to developers. As the west end is a finite area hemmed in by Memorial Drive and Katy Freeway, builders will continue to buy up old homes until there are none left.

As the affordable homes disappear, the number of shady types will decrease. The area may not be suitable for night time dog walking yet, but neither is it the 5th Ward. Assuming inner loop housing does not hit a slump, expect this area to look like the area between Memorial and Washington in about 5 years. Remember that in 1999 when I moved into a place near Memorial and Detering, there were sketchy homes in that neighborhood, too. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that they really obliterated the last remnants.

You get a price bonus for buying in these still gentrifying areas. As it gentrifies, land prices take away the bonus. If that doesn't square with you, buy in the pricier area. Otherwise, save a few bucks and practice the care that all inner city dwellers should be practicing.

[longhornguy]

Has he been helpful? He never answered a single question. His comments could apply virtually anywhere that gentrification is occurring, most notably, his own neighborhood. He really hasn't told you anything.

As the west end has gentrified, the "easy" areas, as usual, gentrified first. Those would be the areas closest to Memorial Park and closet to Memorial Drive. The area between Houston Avenue and Shepherd/Durham remained largely untouched until 4 or 5 years ago. As such, the area is not very far along in the gentrification process. Washington Avenue itself remained stubbornly resistant to rehabilitation until 4 or 5 years ago.

When the gentrification came to Washington, it pretty much arrived with a vengeance. All up and down the avenue, new shopping centers, townhomes and apartments are being built, most within the last 2 or 3 years. As the housing jumped to the north of the avenue, it clustered around Durham and Heights/Yale. It is slowly moving north of Washington and west from Yale and east from Shepherd. As construction continues, land values increase, and more homes are sold to developers. As the west end is a finite area hemmed in by Memorial Drive and Katy Freeway, builders will continue to buy up old homes until there are none left.

As the affordable homes disappear, the number of shady types will decrease. The area may not be suitable for night time dog walking yet, but neither is it the 5th Ward. Assuming inner loop housing does not hit a slump, expect this area to look like the area between Memorial and Washington in about 5 years. Remember that in 1999 when I moved into a place near Memorial and Detering, there were sketchy homes in that neighborhood, too. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that they really obliterated the last remnants.

You get a price bonus for buying in these still gentrifying areas. As it gentrifies, land prices take away the bonus. If that doesn't square with you, buy in the pricier area. Otherwise, save a few bucks and practice the care that all inner city dwellers should be practicing.

Thank you so much, this post was actually much more helpful than the previous post. I knew there had to be somebody with value to add to my question.

For what it's worth, my previous reply was more of a sarcastic comment to end the general responses I was getting. Musicman's responses reminded me of a buying a car, when you would ask a direct question and get something from third base as a an answer!

You do make some excellent points about the finite area of West End. I read an article about the Citizen lounge owner who was likening Washington Ave. to 4th and 5th St. in Austin. I can actually see that happening, especially with Blue Door, Pandora, Drake, etc causing all the buzz in the area.

The relatively close proximity to Memorial Park is also a huge plus. West End seems like it has all the elements of a budding community. Very attractive to me.

What it seems to be missing is a grocery store serving the direct area. This could be a HUGE return for somebody willing to invest money in this venture.

I did drive by the property I was interested in last night and there was some form of shady characters roaming the streets. Probably not too safe to walk your dog at night, but I can see huge potential as things get developed.

[musicman]

The area may not be suitable for night time dog walking yet, but neither is it the 5th Ward. Assuming inner loop housing does not hit a slump, expect this area to look like the area between Memorial and Washington in about 5 years.

sounds like another definitely maybe vote.

[longhornguy]

sounds like another definitely maybe vote.

Thank you again. That was very helpful. I'm not sure if I can absorb much more of this deeply thought-provoking guidance.

[20thStDad]

I rode through that area a couple of weeks ago, past the park. Not the best area, to me it seemed like sort of an isolated bad spot in the middle of goodness. The area between I-10 and Center St, just north and south of the railroad tracks is what I'm talking about. I'm guessing it's still kind of crappy due to proximity to I-10 and the tracks. My opinion, of course. I would say it's on it's way to being better, but I'm not sure it'll be very quickly. If you're hoping to jump in there and it be nice and safe in a couple years, I'm not seeing it. Give it 5-8, but that depends on your own scale of progress. It has just moved at slower pace at getting better than other nearby places. But I don't feel unsafe there at all.

[margokorin]

I DO live in this area. Off Washington inbetween Shepard and Studemont. I am very close to Pearl bar, but on the south side of Washington. I live super close to Washington and can say that right in that area it is shady. I have a iron gate that is always closed. I have come home to find people in my yard, folks have knocked on my door and asked for change etc. I have not expereinced any property crime... however, I get nervous when by boyfriend is not in town. If I was a single gal, I would not be living there. With THAT said, I LOVE LOVE LOVE my home, and the neighborhood really has improved in the last 4 years. The particular park you speak of usually has a bunch of homeless folks snoozing on benches. And I have personally seen a drug deal go down there.. however, since the corner store has closed alot of the CRIME has stopped. Someone was car jacked at knifepoint right at the RR tracks and patterson last year. Hope I can be of some help... If you have any more questions feel free to ask!

[sowanome]

I've also lived just South of Washington 4 minute walk to Pearl Bar and chaise lounge....The positive thing that I can say is that the majority of the older/unkept homes have been demolished are in the plans to be demolished south of washington in less than a year or two. For Example, within a two year span (06-08) I viewed huge lots of older homes go done and TH's come up in abundance.

As mentioned earlier, if you view what's happening South of washington and the lack of older homes to tear down...This should give you a reference point of when to expect the area North of Washington to be cleaned up....

I'm also aware of the area off of Patterson and Washington near Center Street and the new Retail Development (Joy Yoga and the furniture place)....but it will be gone very soon. Check this out...

http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cf...mp;backButton=Y

The Entire Block is for sale!

[longhornguy]

Thanks for the input everyone!

I've pulled the trigger on a townhome development off of Thompson (between Koehler and Eli) and will hopefully be moving in soon!

I too see the huge potential for the Washington corridor (proximity to Memorial and BB parks, trendy bars/restaurants and the Heights a 10 minute drive away) and would like to be part of the movement!

A buddy of mine also recently moved into the area and he's been completely happy so far.

West End Park would be such a gem for the immediate neighborhood (I'm not aware of areas south of Washington and West of Shepherd with a small neighborhood park) if it could get cleaned up. It does need to be lit up at night a little better and crime awareness by the local HPD needs to be increased.

Hopefully with a collective effort, HAIF members and their friends could launch a "Clean Up West End Park" campaign!

Also, I've noticed there's a crack house (probably where most of the people hanging out at the park come from) at the corner of Patterson and Center.

I have no doubt that's where the crime originates from (knife-point car jacking and muggings).

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[TheNiche]

I'm also aware of the area off of Patterson and Washington near Center Street and the new Retail Development (Joy Yoga and the furniture place)....but it will be gone very soon. Check this out...

http://search.har.com/engine/dispSearch.cf...mp;backButton=Y

The Entire Block is for sale!

They want $77 per square foot...uh, no!

[longhornguy]

Does anyone have any historic knowledge of West End Park (off of Patterson, south of I-10 and north of Washington)?

It seems to have seen it's better years already and I'm always seeing vagabonds asleep on the bench.

However, the potential of having a small neighborhood park surrounded by pricey townhomes seems overlooked?

The park would be a great place for a picnic if it was cleaned up! Not to mention adding value to the surrounding properties...

[margokorin]

I agree that the north side of Washington still has a way to go. There are many more tear downs over there than what we have in our neighboorhood. I had a VERY scary house next to mine that was torn down about 9 months ago. Has made a major difference in the folks who hang out in the area. However, it doesnt seem to me that HPD really cares. I have called twice about gun shots and never had any follow up....

[RedScare]

I agree that the north side of Washington still has a way to go. There are many more tear downs over there than what we have in our neighboorhood. I had a VERY scary house next to mine that was torn down about 9 months ago. Has made a major difference in the folks who hang out in the area. However, it doesnt seem to me that HPD really cares. I have called twice about gun shots and never had any follow up....

Perhaps because HPD was already responding to the actual location of the gunshots? Not to pick on you, but consider what you told the 911 dispatch. Could anything more be added by an officer standing at your door? When gunfire erupts, it is not uncommon for several residents to call in, including those who can actually pinpoint the source of the gunfire. In this scenario, officers will go directly to the source. If it is several blocks away, you may never know that they arrived.

As for crackhouses, calls can be placed to HPD's drug division. Not sure the number. Call 311 for help. Call everytime you see activity. They'll fit you in their schedule eventually.

As for longhorn's post, cleaning up the park is EXACTLY what proactive neighbors would do. Bums and crackheads don't like attention. A crowd showing up to pick up trash and mow and edge the grass will show the undesirables that the park is being watched. You can even contact the Parks department for mowers and weedeaters, if you need them. Calls and emails to your councilperson carry much more weight when a committed and engaged neighborhood can be shown to be involved, especially when you are not asking for a lot. Nighttime lighting is probably a multi-year request, but calls to Centerpoint or 311 can get streetlights repaired. And you would be AMAZED at what can be accomplished by taking a trash bag with you when walking your dog.

NOTE: All of these suggestions have been personally tested.

[Dan the Man]

Think that area is sketchy now? You should have seen it 15 years ago!

[sowanome]

Thanks for the input everyone!

West End Park would be such a gem for the immediate neighborhood (I'm not aware of areas south of Washington and West of Shepherd with a small neighborhood park) if it could get cleaned up.

Hopefully with a collective effort, HAIF members and their friends could launch a "Clean Up West End Park" campaign!

Also, I've noticed there's a crack house (probably where most of the people hanging out at the park come from) at the corner of Patterson and Center.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I'd donate to a "Clean up West End Park" campaign... Also, if you want to see a great n.hood park, there's Cleveland park at JAckson Hill b/w Memorial and Scotland. This should only be a 6-9 minute walk from you're new location...Good Luck

[Jdorfma1]

I bought on Eigel just west of Patterson in October 2007 (actually summer of 2006, contruction took FOREVER). Anyways, I can toss a softball into West End Park from my window (well I could until my bulder built another six units blocking my view. But they are listed for 50k more than I paid for mine so I'm happy as a crack dealer in West End Park... kidding!)

OK, here's the deal. I love my 'hood and its quirky wackiness. Let's define WE as east of Shepherd, North of Washington, south of I-10, and west of Yale for arguments sake. It is pierced by the tracks along Allen.

1. The prices for new construction are on the rise, but this is shaded by the larger size of the new homes. Parra is the dominant bulder in this zone (I own a Parra home, and before you knock it bite me, i love it). Parra started with 1450sf 2/2.5 with lofts that started at around 175 and are now ranging from around 205 to 215 on resale. then he started with 3/2.5 with lofts and 3/3 with big decks at 1850sf and 1820sf. The started at 225 and jumped to between 260 and 299 now (there are 5 unsold and 6 under construction but purchasing has been steadyish). All the new contruction, especially along Inker and Thompson/Koehler have been minimum 3 bedroom 2200sq and prices have ranged from 299 to 500+. It ain't River Oaks, but the trend is moving upscale, not flat or down.

2. Da Train. I've written on this previously and yes yes, the train was here first. But I'm here now and I'm an obnoxious white yuppie who doesn't like it (I'm used to it now though). I think the train noise is depressing prices around 10 to 25% depending on proximity and quality. The first night you'll show up to work bleary eyes, you'll be fine in a week, i don't hear it much anymore. Anyway, I have spoken via e-mail with the city official in charge of quiet zones and this area (Yale to TC jester I think) has been designated a Tier 3 project for quiet zones. No, I have no idea what that means exactly but its been explained to me as "don't hold your breath before 2010 but 2012 seems possible). It is HIGHLY unlikely the train will be moved though, its got nowhere to go and is too vital. It doesn't bother the people who live in the quiet zone along the west loop though.

3. The drug dealers. Short answer is there are fewer hanging out in the park than 12 months ago but they are there. Quite simply they don't bother me and I don't bother them. they're losing customers and will move on soon. The area just north and east of the park has been developed/is developing. South and west, not so much, and it may not get really developed until the train noise is dealt with.

Jeff

[RedScare]

Most pragmatic post I've seen from an "obnoxious white yuppie" (redundant? ) in a long, long time. Congratulations. Hopefully, you end up with a lot of neighbors who think like yourself.

[Aland11223]

Don't know much about that, but the church West End Baptist out in that area was designed by the same person that designed West University Baptist in the West University area inside the city of Bellaire. If you go inside both of the church buildings, you will notice they look almost alike. Though West U remodeled years later and now looks a little different.

Sorry about not knowing much about the park..

Edited August 14, 2008 by Aland11223

[longhornguy]

The train is almost a deal-killer for a lot of folks. I would imagine the more influential "blue-blood" type of people start living in the area, the more likely political strings will be pulled to set up quiet zones.

Nothing is impossible if the right people are talking!

[Jdorfma1]

The train is almost a deal-killer for a lot of folks. I would imagine the more influential "blue-blood" type of people start living in the area, the more likely political strings will be pulled to set up quiet zones.

Nothing is impossible if the right people are talking!

Perhaps, but the types of people that have THAT level of influence are already living along Memorial Drive and don't hear the train. I see prospective buyers all the time in my neighborhood and when they ask about the train they are convinced that in a year or so enough rich folks will live here to make the city make it a quiet zone. It ain't happening, not for 3-4 years minimum, its not even on the table right now. The luckiest we might get is a grade seperation at Durham and Shepherd but that's a long shot right now too.

Learn to love the train and bless its little heart for keeping your taxes lower.

Jeff

[Jdorfma1]

Perhaps because HPD was already responding to the actual location of the gunshots? Not to pick on you, but consider what you told the 911 dispatch. Could anything more be added by an officer standing at your door? When gunfire erupts, it is not uncommon for several residents to call in, including those who can actually pinpoint the source of the gunfire. In this scenario, officers will go directly to the source. If it is several blocks away, you may never know that they arrived.

As for crackhouses, calls can be placed to HPD's drug division. Not sure the number. Call 311 for help. Call everytime you see activity. They'll fit you in their schedule eventually.

As for longhorn's post, cleaning up the park is EXACTLY what proactive neighbors would do. Bums and crackheads don't like attention. A crowd showing up to pick up trash and mow and edge the grass will show the undesirables that the park is being watched. You can even contact the Parks department for mowers and weedeaters, if you need them. Calls and emails to your councilperson carry much more weight when a committed and engaged neighborhood can be shown to be involved, especially when you are not asking for a lot. Nighttime lighting is probably a multi-year request, but calls to Centerpoint or 311 can get streetlights repaired. And you would be AMAZED at what can be accomplished by taking a trash bag with you when walking your dog.

NOTE: All of these suggestions have been personally tested.

I don't think the issue at WEP is cleanliness, the park is actually well maintained. The issues, as I see them, are:

1. Lack of children. Its simply not a child-heavy neighborhood. If there were a lot of kids in the park after schoold playing and being watched by mindful parents the dealers would be pushed out. Maybe its a chick-egg issue and there are kids in the neighborhood and they're not there because of the dealers but I don't see it. The HISD schools zoned for WE are not attractions so young families are still looking elsewhere. West End is young singles and childless couples in thier 20s and 30's right now.

2. Customers. Patterson is a majorish thoroughfare (not Shepherd major but it gets a lot of traffic) and the dealers and thugs that hangout there make money. I wouldn't be anxious to leave either if I was them.

3. Empty lots. As I said above, two sides of the park are developed but the other two are still spotty. THe emptiness means no people watching or complaining. Blight attracts criminal elements. It will change but not overnight.

4. Bums vs. Dealers. WEP is not a place for derelicts. I've seen the occasional bum sleeping in the pagod (I forget, tent like thingy, my vocab sucks today) but the park is mostly dealers, its not a place for users and vagrants. Quite frankly its better this way. I'd rather leave near a dealer stop than a homeless park, if I'm forced to choose).

Jeff

[margokorin]

I happen to like the train. Let me rephrase that, I happen to like the sound of the train. I despise the train when I get stuck at it. Which happens at least 3 times a week.

[longhornguy]

I agree with you, strangely enough, the train doesn't bother me that much either.

Getting stuck at the tracks can suck though.

Looks like West End is barely on the fringes of getting zoned to the River Oakie's public schools (Lamar HS, etc), how many of them actually go to public school is debatable. LOL!

[Jdorfma1]

I agree with you, strangely enough, the train doesn't bother me that much either.

Getting stuck at the tracks can suck though.

Looks like West End is barely on the fringes of getting zoned to the River Oakie's public schools (Lamar HS, etc), how many of them actually go to public school is debatable. LOL!

Bingo. That's why the same house on the west side of Shepherd is 100k more than the east side. Lamar vs Regan. Not a knock on Regan, which I drive by and looks like a gorgeous school and the kids seem happy, but its perception here, not reality, that drive prices and make some neighborhood kid friendly and others not.

Maybe this will change in 5 years as all the young couples in WE start making with the babies and stuff.