Public Transit Moneypit!

[kjb434]

Houston Strategies Blog

Hey,

Saw this on the Houston Strategies Blog. Seattle is about to spend $11 billion to build 14 miles of monorail.

Houston's plan is only $2 billion for LRT, BRT, and commuter rail and many more miles of it.

Looks like Houston is little more responsible is going for the most bang for a but.

[713 To 214]

Houston Strategies Blog

Hey,

Saw this on the Houston Strategies Blog. Seattle is about to spend $11 billion to build 14 miles of monorail.

Houston's plan is only $2 billion for LRT, BRT, and commuter rail and many more miles of it.

Looks like Houston is little more responsible is going for the most bang for a but.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Houston doesn't even begin to come close to Seattle's Mass Transit infrastructure. You shouldn't compare the two. Unless you're doing it to make yourself feel better about getting the shaft on METRORail's new plan that gives Houstonians more buses instead of more rail, when the latter is what the voters approved.

[ssullivan]

Monorail is extremely expensive to build. I'm not at all surprised by the cost of Seattle's monorail expansion compared to the amount Houston is planning to spend on the next phase of transit expansion here.

[kjb434]

713 to 214

I was comparing the phase of construction and proposed plan and nothing of the overall system.

If seattle spent anywhere near this much for incremental parts to the rest of their system, I'd be a mad taxpayer and citizen.

What Houston will get for $2 billion dollars is much more than Seattle will get.

At least the BRT's will have rail under them. A long range planning concept that will have Houston set for future expansions at cheaper price.

[713 To 214]

At least the BRT's will have rail under them.  A long range planning concept that will have Houston set for future expansions at cheaper price.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the clarification. I don't share the same view toward future expansion of rail in Houston. Those rails won't be uncovered for another thirty years. . .if ever. I've been watching Houston's attempt to build meaningful rail for the past 25 years. The city always goes in the direction of more roads. . .less rail. The same is tru with this new plan, no matter how much the powers that be try to placate your fears by telling you that "we're setting things up for expansion later." Construction costs are not going to go down. They will only go up over time. Therefore, the ridership numbers needed to justify that "expansion" will continue to go up year after year after year. Get it? But, If you still believe that those buses will be replaced by rail anytime soon, then I've got some land about fifty miles south of New Orleans that I'd lke to sell you.

[ssullivan]

Seattle's transit infrastructure isn't all that great. Their system, like Houston's, is mostly based on buses. Yeah, there's the monorail downtown, but it is a leftover from a world's fair that connects a few tourist destinations, and it's not even running at the moment due to a fire last year. There's a transit tunnel that buses run in, which is a great feature downtown for fast bus service (kind of a form of BRT). It even had rail lines laid down in it when it was built for eventual conversion to light rail (sound familiar?). However, those rails weren't put down according to the right specifications for LRVs, meaning that in order for light rail service to be started in the tunnel, the rails will have to be dug up and replaced. I think part of Seattle's current transit plan is proposing to do this, at a pretty great expense. The city also has a small amount of light rail, and commuter train service (Sounder) to Tacoma with stops at a number of suburban communities along the way like Kent, Auburn, Sumner, and Puyallup. This service is operated by Sound Transit, a separate authority from Seattle's transit agency.

I'm not saying Seattle's transit system is nothing to be proud of, because it has a lot of things that are better than Houston's. However I wouldn't say that it's many times better than Houston's.

[kjb434]

I'm actually from a lot of land 50 miles south of New Orleans, so your sarcasm doesn't work.

Anyway, more roads isn't that bad either. Most people look at the new Toll Facilities as more roads, but they are actually new Mass Transit corridors. They are more options. The BRT lines will require the much needed rebuilding of serveral urban roadways such as Harrisburg. I understand that the rail may not be uncovered for 30 years, so what! I can understand how the demand may take that long.

Rail is not the only answer and will not solve many of our problems. It just give more options. Most of our road traffic problems will not be capacity but efficiency issues in the future. The Katy Freeway project is implementing proven ramp and merging geometrics that reduce congestion. The major freeway to freeway interchanges are getting better geometrics also. This is from years of transportions studies and from my own college course work.

Our bus system before rail ever entered the picture out moves Dallas and Atlanta with their rails and buses for ridership. The old addage if it ain't broke don't fix it applied very well to Houston. Metro is at the point now where new bus lines won't be able to efficiently handle there riders at an acceptable cost. Strategically placed LRT and BRT lines will make a more effective use of the current bus system by consolidating routes.

Houston is getting a rail system (LRT and BRT) that is not unlike many European cities with the new plan. Just look at Berlin, Amsterdam, Munich, Brussels, and Madrid for a few. They have BRT and LRT type lines (running at grade too).

What nice about having a transportion background in college is that I get to see how the public reacts and how proponent and opponents throw out comments for their position. And I'm sitting over here with the realization that not person in each camp has the best solution but parts to the best sollution. Houston traffice will be served best by more roads with the addition of LRT, BRT and commuter rail.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Houston doesn't even begin to come close to Seattle's Mass Transit infrastructure. You shouldn't compare the two.

LMAO

[MidtownCoog]

214 is mad becuase London beat Houston.

wank on

[kjb434]

hehe,

I am proud for London. I think they can do a good job. I just don't think Houston was ready for it yet. Maybe 15 to 20 years when we have a larger mass transit system.

I'm glad London beat out Paris especially after the insulting comments Chirac made about them.

Anyway, Subdude, great information on the Seattle transit system.

[RedScare]

Actually, London made some disparaging remarks, but the Paris mayor diplomatically brushed it off. Both cities would have been wonderful, and I am happy for London.

Whoops, that is off topic. I think $11 billion for 14 miles of anything is ridiculous. I'll take our $2 billion deal any day, regardless of what former residents think of it.

[westguy]

London won because it promised to bulldoze its ghettos for Olympic venues, right? I would prefer that it was somewhere less European, but the only city that qualified was New York.

[MidtownCoog]

I was working in London when the committe visited. It was pretty exciting to see all the hub-bub, the debates, etc.

But even they say they don't have enough public transport. When the tube is full, where do you go?

And the part of town where they are going to build most the new stuff could really use it. It reminds me of the ship channel area.

[MidtownCoog]

Yes, the ghettos are going buh-byey.

But is London really European?

Sure does not feel like it when I am there. Nothing like the vibe in continental europe.

[RedScare]

"But is London really European?"

Not, if you ask Londoners.

[Talbot]

Funny thing about this is that Delay would still probably give Seattle what they wanted if he had the chance before us, even if they are spending a lot of money for a short distance of rail.

[kjb434]

^^^^^

How do you base that statement?

For the cost of the seattle thing, i'm surprised it passed through the FTC.

In the end, Delay would little to do with the decision. Delay and Culberson could only help or hurt Houston's effort by influencing the appropriations committee and other committees. Rarely would one representative and/or senator go after another one trying to get money for their district. Chances are Delay would have tried to stop it because it was wastefull and rather it spent on more roads.

It also depends on how much power the congressmen and senators from the seattle area are in DC.

[westguy]

Since this is an architecture forum, its pretty obvious that London has copied everything done on the continental side. They're currently going through a German phase. There's nothing really native there.

[713 To 214]

For those who actually think that Houston's mass transit system is on par with Seattle's, please visit the following links to make your own comparrison. In my opinion, Houston doesn't come close. Anybody who has actually visited Seattle can tell you the same.

http://www.soundtransit.org/riding/

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/link/

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/sounder/

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/st-express/

http://ridemetro.org/

[Sunstar]

For those who actually think that Houston's mass transit system is on par with Seattle's, please visit the following links to make your own comparrison.  In my opinion, Houston doesn't come close.  Anybody who has actually visited Seattle can tell you the same.

http://www.soundtransit.org/riding/

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/link/

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/sounder/

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/st-express/

http://ridemetro.org/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So I believe your initial statement was that Houston doesn't even begin to come close to Seattle's Mass Transit infrastructure. As far as I can see, Seattle's initial light rail segment doesn't even open until 2009. It appears they already have commuter rail, but nothing that would make me think that they blow Houston away hands down. Maybe I'm missing something...

[kjb434]

Houston, although not rail, has very large dedicated mass transite pathways. Each HOV lane in this city is akin to a commuter railway in many cities. With that included, I say yes Houston does have a great mass transit system on par with Seattle.

[RedScare]

Interesting that you mention Seattle for comparison. The websites you refered us to, show 3,400 daily commuters on TWO commuter rail lines. Not exactly setting the transit world on fire.

The light rail segment brags about carrying 750,000 passengers in its first year. Compare that to half a million commuters on Houston's LRT....per MONTH.

Seattles express buses carry 30,000 commuters daily. Their bus system carries the same number of riders annually as Houston's.

So, they have more rail, but carry only 40% as many commuters as Houston's starter line, and their bus system carries the same number as ours.

You're right. There is no comparison.

[kjb434]

ROTFLMAO

Thanks for breaking it down RedScare

[MidtownCoog]

I guess Steve Dunne finally got his Supertrain proposal approved by Seattle's mayor.

Yeah for Steve!

[ssullivan]

Thanks RedScare, you beat me to those stats. And yes, 713 to 214, I have visited Seattle. Many times in fact, most recently spending three weeks in that area in May for work. I didn't say Seattle's system was bad, and if you read my post carefully, you'll see that I said they do some things better than us. But in terms of numbers of people moved long distances, Houston has them beat. And Sound Transit, the agency you provided the links for, is not Seattle's inner-city transit system. Sound Transit is the equivalent of Metro's park and ride and express bus service in terms of the area it serves. Sound Transit is designed to get people from the suburbs into downtown Tacoma and Seattle. Local service within the city is provided by King County Metro. When you throw in their bus ridership numbers, Seattle probably carries more passengers on an average weekday than Houston. But again, that's mostly on buses. As RedScare mentioned, there's not a lot of rail service there, and for what rail service there is, ours is much more efficient when you look at ridership per mile. And don't get me started on the joke of a light rail line in Tacoma that runs like 2 miles.

Again I'm not saying Seattle's system isn't better than Houston's. But if it's better, it's only marginally so.

[tomv]

Each HOV lane in this city is akin to a commuter railway in many cities. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent point and one so obvious it's often overlooked. Upgrading to two-way will be a huge step forward though.

[N Judah]

713 to 214

If seattle spent anywhere near this much for incremental parts to the rest of their system, I'd be a mad taxpayer and citizen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well then I guess you not living there benefits all parties

Anyway, Seattle's public transportation system is great. It's a somewhat more compact part of the country (the city of Seattle is, for all practical purposes, basically one large bottleneck -- just look at it on a map, you'll see what I mean) so the distance traveled per person will never be as much as sprawlier cities but qualitatively the system itself is clean, organized, and efficient relative to other places, including Houston.

Unlike Houston's shady backroom dealings Seattle runs on a type of populism that involves getting everyone's opinion and making sure everyone is happy. That's probably why it's taken them so long to put in a lrt/monorail/whatever they're planning now system and why it seems like they keep changing it. Once they actually get around to building the thing there's no doubt in my mind that it will be hugely popular. I guess we'll see soon enough, won't we?

[Talbot]

^^^^^

How do you base that statement? 

For the cost of the seattle thing, i'm surprised it passed through the FTC.

In the end, Delay would little to do with the decision.  Delay and Culberson could only help or hurt Houston's effort by influencing the appropriations committee and other committees.  Rarely would one representative and/or senator go after another one trying to get money for their district.  Chances are Delay would have tried to stop it because it was wastefull and rather it spent on more roads.

It also depends on how much power the congressmen and senators from the seattle area are in DC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im not saying he has the ability to do it, I guess I was just thinking to myself and I typed it. But what I meant is that if he did have the ability to control what other cities did get, im sure he'd rather give to them than to Houston.

But ignore my post, it was just rubbish.

[Heights2Bastrop]

Kind of spooky that London's transportation system is being discussed.

This is a big reason why I didn't want Houston to get the Olympics. We probably would have become a target.

[westguy]

I wonder if the bombings in the tube will embolden rail opponents in Houston.

It is strangely coincidental that this happened the day after London was chosen to host the Olympics.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I'm sure it will to some degree, but remember a bus was hit as well. Unfortunately, there's only so much you can do to defend public transit properties from terrorism. You're not likely to see an agency ban persons from coming abord the vehicles with bags so a person who is dedicated enough can bring a bag full of explosive onto a bus and detonate it. It's a very real risk when taking public transit.

Just like there isn't a 100% guarantee that we can protect bridges, tunnels, underpasses and whatever from terrorism. Any guy with a car bomb who parks along the side of a ramp or underneath a freeway can cause some serious damage.

Intelligence gathering is critical in a head-'em-off-at-the-pass kind of way. Knowing your enemy and tracking his moves, etc, but even that doesn't stop it 100%, and to do better than what we (and London, etc) have now will cost more money.

Which leads me to wonder if this will also give transit agencies the motivation to ask for more federal funding to fight transit terrorism? Seems like a resonable concern.

[YakuzaIce]

I wonder if the bombings in the tube will embolden rail opponents in Houston.

It is strangely coincidental that this happened the day after London was chosen to host the Olympics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it was probably more for the G8 summit it was probably just good fortune (this seems bad to say) on the terrorists part that it was right after the olympics had been announced.

heres the article from the chron

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory2/3256059

I don't think this will hurt rail in the long term though. Americans and I guess everyone seem to have short term memories. I mean just look high rise construction. It seemed to stop after 9/11 but now the US and around the world are having a huge building boom.

[Lowbrow]

To preserve liberty I think we will always be at risk. Its the nature of a free society. My opinion is that we need to pay more attention to our policies abroad rather than our security at home. I'm sure I'm in the minority here though.

It's hard to police the world and force our standards/ethics on others and not expect to put ourselves in danger.

Everytime we make some change here at home in reaction to a terrorist action I cringe. Say we lost funding for public transport because of something like this... to me they've won just a little bit.

[jghall00]

Interesting that you mention Seattle for comparison.

[YakuzaIce]

Seattle

569,101 in city

3,763,569 in metro

Houston

2,009,690 in city

5,176,061 in metro

I think this is the 2005 est. It may be 2004

EDIT: I think it is 05 but that would be weird they put Houstons pop as lower than 04. 04 is 2,012,626

[RedScare]

Seattle metro population is 3,450,000. Seattle's transit system is a metro wide system, serving Tacoma and Everett, as well as Seattle.

Houston's METRO serves only Harris County, which is 3,650,000.

[The Great Hizzy!]

It doesn't even serve all of Harris County.

For example, Tomball, Pasadena, Deer Park, La Porte, South Houston and all of the Clear Lake municipalities are NOT part of METRO's sales tax district.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Re: Houston's population numbers

The 2,009,000 figure is based on the 2003 census estimate.

The 2,012,000 figure is based on the 2004 census estimate.

FTR, the COH estimates its population at 2,050,000 as of Jan. 1, 2005 and the Urban Institute of Texas estimated it at 2,040,000 in July of 2004.

The census often undercounts its estimates (not always but often), as many international immigrants aren't factored in to those estimates.

[kjb434]

Metro's Service area is more than Houston though. As said before the service areas is over 3 million people.

[ssullivan]

Kind of spooky that London's transportation system is being discussed.

This is a big reason why I didn't want Houston to get the Olympics. We probably would have become a target.

With a major port, the oil industry, NASA, a major commerce center, one of the nation's largest population centers, and a huge international presence, Houston doesn't need an Olympics to be a terroritst target. They already have plenty of reason to target this city. I hate to say this, but it's probably not a matter of if, but when, something happens here.

That said, I'm not a person who runs around worrying about the terrorist threat or changing my plans because of it. I have a trip planned to London for the first week of September and it's still on.

[YakuzaIce]

With a major port, the oil industry, NASA, a major commerce center, one of the nation's largest population centers, and a huge international presence, Houston doesn't need an Olympics to be a terroritst target. They already have plenty of reason to target this city. I hate to say this, but it's probably not a matter of if, but when, something happens here.

That said, I'm not a person who runs around worrying about the terrorist threat or changing my plans because of it. I have a trip planned to London for the first week of September and it's still on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just wondering has there ever been a major foreign or domestic terrorist attack in LA or Chicago? It always seems as if NY is the main target. I will look around to see it there have been any.

[RedScare]

With a major port, the oil industry, NASA, a major commerce center, one of the nation's largest population centers, and a huge international presence, Houston doesn't need an Olympics to be a terroritst target. They already have plenty of reason to target this city. I hate to say this, but it's probably not a matter of if, but when, something happens here.

That said, I'm not a person who runs around worrying about the terrorist threat or changing my plans because of it. I have a trip planned to London for the first week of September and it's still on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. 15,000 Americans will be murdered this year. 45,000 will die in auto accidents. I don't refuse to leave my house or drive my car because of these REAL threats. So, I am definitely not changing my plans because there is an icecube's chance that a political terrorist might get lucky and bomb the shop or restaurant that I'm in that day.

My odds of winning Mega Millions are better than being a victim of a terrorist.

[ssullivan]

But what's sad is the number of people who don't feel that way RedScare. Not long ago I was waiting at the Cleveland airport for a flight home and a woman and her daughter sitting next to me were quite nervous about getting on the plane. Neither had flown since before 9/11, and had been refusing to get on an airplane for over three years just because of the terrorist attack that day. Of course, we haven't had a death on an American airliner due to terrorism in nearly four years now, but I'm sure these two weren't alone in their fear.

I, on the other hand, flew just a few days after 9/11 with only a minimal amount of nervousness about it.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

That said, I'm not a person who runs around worrying about the terrorist threat or changing my plans because of it. I have a trip planned to London for the first week of September and it's still on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. It will happen eventually in H-town. Terrorrism has existed way before Sep 11( Oklahoma, WTC bombing, IRA.....) it will be around for hundreds of years after we're gone. I won't let it get me down here I sure as hell won't back at home.

I'll be in the U.K. around September too(Manchester), then H-town can't wait!!

[N Judah]

Seattle metro population is 3,450,000.

[RedScare]

In reading about Seattle transit, I did notice one big thing that can't be compared between the two cities. Seattle residents' commitment to public transit as part of the congestion problem versus many Houstonians' equal commitment against mass transit as part of a solution. While $11 Billion dollars for a 14 mile monorail is a terrible cost/benefit, 20 lane freeways as a solution is just as bad on the other side.

Though there is a grudging acceptance that we need all forms of transit to fight gridlock, there are still too many who fail to realize that every person who takes mass transit is one less person ahead of them on the freeway. A little less myopic thinking will move us a long way.

[sevfiv]

myopia is chronic around here!

[jghall00]

I agree.  It will happen eventually in H-town.  Terrorrism has existed way before Sep 11( Oklahoma, WTC bombing, IRA.....) it will be around for hundreds of years after we're gone. I won't let it get me down here I sure as hell won't back at home.

I'll be in the U.K. around September too(Manchester), then H-town can't wait!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think anyone would waste time attacking Houston, it has insufficient density to provide a real scare. The only viable targets here are the refineries. A major attack on those could do some damage, given our economy's dependence on relatively low fuel prices.

[Dominax]

Seattle

569,101 in city

3,763,569 in metro

Houston

2,009,690 in city

5,176,061 in metro

I think this is the 2005 est.  It may be 2004

EDIT: I think it is 05 but that would be weird they put Houstons pop as lower than 04.  04 is 2,012,626

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Year of 2006 will have the actuall new population of Houston and Seattle in Rand McNally Road Atlas.

[YakuzaIce]

Year of 2006 will have the actuall new population of Houston and Seattle in Rand McNally Road Atlas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where do they get their numbers? Once the census gets the 2010 numbers that will probably be the most accurate. Their estimates always seem to be off.