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Will COH ban single use plastic bags


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So...paper bags cost more and fall apart when exposed to liquids (or frozen goods that become covered in condensation), and the purported disadvantages are dubious or overblown. The advantage to plastic is absolute.

Any bagging behavior modification law will be done strictly out of human vanity, so that certain kool-aide-drinking constituents can find an excuse to give themselves a hearty and anti-intellectual pat on the back. I am not in favor of stupid people feeling good about themselves. I believe that they are more likely to breed when they feel happy, and I am especially not in favor of that.

Trying to keep it professional. Plastic bags don't biodegrade. Even though they may gradually break down into smaller pieces over centuries when exposed to UV radiation, they will be permanent components of the environment and the food chain. That's a pretty big disadvantage.

I don't really believe folks who want this ban are doing so for vanity. I suspect it's out of genuine concern for the environment, whether or not you agree that landfills and litter are negative additions to our shared landscape. According to one source, the Texas Campaign for the Environment, "Every day Houston residents consume over 1.9 million plastic bags and more than 80% of them will end up in our landfills or littering our community".

I try to avoid plastic bags mainly for practical reasons as stated earlier. Other cities seem to have implemented similar rules (as have some retailers) without too much of an inconvenience to consumers.

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Trying to keep it professional. Plastic bags don't biodegrade. Even though they may gradually break down into smaller pieces over centuries when exposed to UV radiation, they will be permanent components of the environment and the food chain.

I do not acknowledge this as fact. Cite a source or two, please.

I don't really believe folks who want this ban are doing so for vanity. I suspect it's out of genuine concern for the environment, whether or not you agree that landfills and litter are negative additions to our shared landscape. According to one source, the Texas Campaign for the Environment, "Every day Houston residents consume over 1.9 million plastic bags and more than 80% of them will end up in our landfills or littering our community".

I try to avoid plastic bags mainly for practical reasons as stated earlier. Other cities seem to have implemented similar rules (as have some retailers) without too much of an inconvenience to consumers.

As for that 80% figure from an organization that probably is staffed by a combination of narcissists and sociopaths, if 79.5% of those end up in a landfill, then that's just dandy. When they show me a breakdown of the number of plastic bags that become litter, then I might give them credence.

And as for convenience, shouldn't that be the pervue of the individual. Perhaps a better ordinance would be to make stores offer the option of both paper and plastic bags so that narcissists and ignorant people can feel good. But it wouldn't accomplish much, and as previously stated, I'm against such people feeling good.

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I do not acknowledge this as fact. Cite a source or two, please.

the term biodegrade means very simply that microbes and other living organisms will breakdown the material into something else, compost material, rich in nutrients and other things.

microbes and other living things do not break down plastics into anything else, they can break it down into smaller pieces of the same material, but the polyethylene used to make plastic bags only breaks down with UV radiation through photodegradation. it does take hundreds of years for this to occur. in the meantime, animals ingest plastics which are not porous, so air and water cannot penetrate. a simple way to test this is to find a nutrea and put a plastic bag over its head, watch it die. feed it to other nutrea and watch them die.

so, here's some links:

http://des.nh.gov/organization/divisions/water/wmb/coastal/trash/documents/marine_debris.pdf

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00560.htm

undoubtedly you're going to ignore it saying that the data they collected isn't factual, inconveniently, it is factual. I'd recommend you go find a chemical engineer and ask them yourself.

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Far from ignoring your links, Samagon, I was amazed that the plastic bags degrade in 10 to 20 years. This is far quicker than I had been led to believe.

I do have a question for those more studied on environmental issues than I. What is the problem with plastic bags buried in a landfill? The landfill was designed and operated at a repository for garbage. They contain all manner of refuse, from the quickly degrading veggies and paper, to plastic bottles and disposable diapers, which take 450 years to degrade, to glass which take a million years to degrade. They are largely isolated from dense areas, due to their unsightlyness and smell. Landfill engineering is much more advanced these days, with impermeable liners at the bottom, collection systems for toxic liquids and methane, and layers of dirt spread over layers of garbage to keep down the smell and keep away the birds.

Landfills, even those with biodegradable debris, are fairly useless for anything other than parks after they are full. With the plastics safely buried underground, what is the danger that they pose?

I realize that platic bags, sixpack rings and other debris can be hazardous to wildlife when dropped as litter. My question concerns plastics that are properly disposed in landfills. Is there some belief that landfills will suddenly become useful properties within a few years of closing, if only they did not have plastics in them?

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A couple of quick points.

In a properly designed landfill - veggies and paper are not quickly degrading. There is some degradation, but the trash layers are covered over so fast and throughly that they become anaerobic very quickly and a lot of what is thought of bio-degradable remains intact. They have dug up 20+ year old landfills and been able to read the newspapers that were buried.

Also, land which was once thought to be expendable and located too far away from anything else has a bad habit over time of becoming valuable and the next great thing. I'm sure New York would love being able to develop the couple thousand acres on Staten Island that was Fresh Kills into something besides a nice pretty urban park.

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Certainly population growth can encroach on formerly distant landfills. But, point number one is more what I am asking about. Banning plastic bags will not eliminate the landfill. It will still be full of readable newspapers and other debris.So, are we actually achieving anything? As mentioned by others, a ban on bags won't affect me much. I am single, and shop once a week. I can probably carry my weekly purchases in a couple of reusable bags, 3 at most. This is a question of efficient regulation, as it were. Will a ban achieve more than what a bag deposit would, for instance?

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Far from ignoring your links, Samagon, I was amazed that the plastic bags degrade in 10 to 20 years. This is far quicker than I had been led to believe.

No kidding! I'd tried briefly to find an answer for myself last night, but kept getting bogged down in non-scientific claims that it would take 500 to 1,000 years for plastic bags to break down in nature. I've seen where plastic bags have seemed to decompose far faster than that. And yet to my knowledge I've never seen or heard of an animal that I give two craps about dying as a result of ingesting or breathing a partially-degraded plastic bag in nature. Something just wasn't clicking.

Maybe the solution is to increase the penalty for littering (as opposed to using landfills for their intended purpose). The 8th Amendment would probably preclude caning people for spitting out gum on the sidewalk such as they do in Singapore, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't still be beefed up...even to the point that it pays for its own enforcement.

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Far from ignoring your links, Samagon, I was amazed that the plastic bags degrade in 10 to 20 years. This is far quicker than I had been led to believe.

I do have a question for those more studied on environmental issues than I. What is the problem with plastic bags buried in a landfill? The landfill was designed and operated at a repository for garbage. They contain all manner of refuse, from the quickly degrading veggies and paper, to plastic bottles and disposable diapers, which take 450 years to degrade, to glass which take a million years to degrade. They are largely isolated from dense areas, due to their unsightlyness and smell. Landfill engineering is much more advanced these days, with impermeable liners at the bottom, collection systems for toxic liquids and methane, and layers of dirt spread over layers of garbage to keep down the smell and keep away the birds.

Landfills, even those with biodegradable debris, are fairly useless for anything other than parks after they are full. With the plastics safely buried underground, what is the danger that they pose?

I realize that platic bags, sixpack rings and other debris can be hazardous to wildlife when dropped as litter. My question concerns plastics that are properly disposed in landfills. Is there some belief that landfills will suddenly become useful properties within a few years of closing, if only they did not have plastics in them?

I'm certainly not as studied as some, and my resources are admittedly just the interwebs, but plastic really only breaks down through sunlight (UV) so buried in a landfill won't help the process of decomposition.

10-20 years is certainly short compared to the 500-1000 that some reference, but for a material that can cause so much havoc and grief with the ecosystem and severely hurt the food chain, if it takes more than 1 day to decompose that's too long. I tend to agree with anyone that says they should just stop making it.

No kidding! I'd tried briefly to find an answer for myself last night, but kept getting bogged down in non-scientific claims that it would take 500 to 1,000 years for plastic bags to break down in nature. I've seen where plastic bags have seemed to decompose far faster than that. And yet to my knowledge I've never seen or heard of an animal that I give two craps about dying as a result of ingesting or breathing a partially-degraded plastic bag in nature. Something just wasn't clicking.

Maybe the solution is to increase the penalty for littering (as opposed to using landfills for their intended purpose). The 8th Amendment would probably preclude caning people for spitting out gum on the sidewalk such as they do in Singapore, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't still be beefed up...even to the point that it pays for its own enforcement.

I do wonder if the 500-1000 that is quoted for plastic bags is conveniently forgetting that they're talking about the grocery bags and not hefty bags.

Some would argue that increasing the penalty for littering is the same as banning their use outright, both methods are using government to change societal habits.... ;)

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Some would argue that increasing the penalty for littering is the same as banning their use outright, both methods are using government to change societal habits.... ;)

I disagree. The bag remains legal to make, possess and use. It is illegal already to improperly dispose of it, and the penalty would increase. Remember that littering is a form of trespass, in that the litter is disposed on property not owned by the litterer. Just as a gun is legal to possess and use, it becomes illegal to shoot it at someone. Same thing with plastic bags.

I still think a more target approach is a deposit, proceeds from which could go to litter enforcement or other environmental uses.

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  • 11 months later...

I was watching Channel 2 when the topic came up about Corpus Christi planning to ban plastic bags--- At the end of the segment, the question was asked if banning the bags was a possibility for Houston, guess their story on morning news will let me know.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/07/29/3065948/corpus-christi-leaders-to-consider.html

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So that you have all the information required to form an opinion about this, the plastic bag ban has not been cited as the cause of death of anyone in Austin, Texas since it was enacted.

But don't misunderestimate: A certain number of people in Austin have in fact died this past year.

Journalists may yet uncover this, which has some pretty striking and direct implications, and it would be irresponsible of them to suppress it:

 

http://nation.foxnews.com/plastic-bags-ban/2013/02/06/san-franciscos-plastic-bag-ban-kills-about-5-people-year

 

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So that you have all the information required to form an opinion about this, the plastic bag ban has not been cited as the cause of death of anyone in Austin, Texas since it was enacted.

But don't misunderestimate: A certain number of people in Austin have in fact died this past year.

Journalists may yet uncover this, which has some pretty striking and direct implications, and it would be irresponsible of them to suppress it:

 

http://nation.foxnews.com/plastic-bags-ban/2013/02/06/san-franciscos-plastic-bag-ban-kills-about-5-people-year

 

In other news, an average of 25 children die annually by suffocating on plastic bags. Both problems are easily fixed by parental guidance or washing in the case of reusable bags. 

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In other news, an average of 25 children die annually by suffocating on plastic bags. Both problems are easily fixed by parental guidance or washing in the case of reusable bags.

Both problems are easily fixed by parental guidance. Are the folks not washing their reusable bags the same as those who don't wash their hands after using the restroom?

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I still think a more target approach is a deposit, proceeds from which could go to litter enforcement or other environmental uses.

Or how about just making them biodegradable in the first place? Kinda like those COH approved plastic bags we already have to use for lawn trimmings.

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I found what Channel 2 had on their website concerning the plastic bag ban-

a little disappointing.

 

 

HOUSTON -

Corpus Christi city leaders are scheduled to consider whether disposable plastic bags should be banned. Which made us wonder if that ban work in Houston?

Back in March, a ban went into effect in Austin. While it was one step forward for the environment, it caused a trip back to the parking lot for some people.

Bag bans have their supporters, but some just don’t see it working here in the Bayou City.

 
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According to a government report, it takes 10 to 20 years to break down a plastic bag in the environment. A little less than the one million years it could take for a glass bottle.

Brownsville was the first Texas city to ban plastic bags back in January of 2011. South Padre Island and Fort Stockton quickly followed suit.

Some Dallas leaders are also pushing for the ban.

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10 - 20 years to break down? maybe 10 - 20 years for us to not be able to tell that it was once a plastic bag, but the plastic doesn't break down that fast, not by a big factor.

 

I can't believe they'd compare the decomposition time of what's essentially sand to that of a long chain polymer. 

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10 - 20 years to break down? maybe 10 - 20 years for us to not be able to tell that it was once a plastic bag, but the plastic doesn't break down that fast, not by a big factor.

 

I can't believe they'd compare the decomposition time of what's essentially sand to that of a long chain polymer. 

 

Glass is found naturally in caverns and nuclear test sites.

 

Just to show you a link about how harmful plastic can be in the Ocean.

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/how-long-does-it-take-for-plastics-to-biodegrade.htm

 

See this list:

http://des.nh.gov/organization/divisions/water/wmb/coastal/trash/documents/marine_debris.pdf

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I don't think anyone is recommending we dump our bags in the Gulf. We approve of burying them in landfills.

 

Let's keep it on topic.

 

I thought the ban was more beneficial for littering purposes and not just for proper disposal? I know we don't have a garbage island like the pacific but as far beautification for the city I think it could be good. But I guess it would only cut back the ones you see on the freeway, I'm sure a percentage of those come from people who got their plastic bags out of the city limits.

 

Edit: And the Bayous as well. I'm not a fan of the scary creatures that lurk beneath but I'm sure they serve some purpose (and deserve less pollution and plastic).

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I'm thinking recycling might be a positive thing and more likely than a ban.

I have posted before that I like the idea of Washington DC taxing plastic bags and using the money to clean up the Potomac.

Beside Channel 2 talking about Corpus Christi, I haven't heard anything about Houston exploring the plastic bag ban further.

I surfed the net and found "plastic bag laws" http://plasticbaglaws.org/

I was wondering how many states had laws concerning plastic bags-

The site listed the states that did and I clicked on Texas and found this:

Successful Local Ordinances

â—¾Brownsville, TX â—¾ordinance, 9/20/2010

Texas State Law

Proposed State Bills (2011 legislative session)

There are two bills currently pending in the Texas legislature that would preempt all local plastic bag ordinances in the name of plastic bag recycling. The bill would require in-store plastic bag recycling bins and mandate the availability of reasonably priced reusable bags at supermarkets. This type of law sounds innocuous, but laws like these are generally sponsored by the plastics industry with the main intention of suspending all local efforts to reduce plastic bag use. Luckily, many local environmental organizations are aware of the bills’ intentions and are urging lawmakers to remove the local preemption language. If you live in Texas, please encourage your representatives to vote NO on these bills!

â—¾SB 908 â—¾current status

â—¾HB 1913 â—¾current status

DISCLAIMER: This is not a complete list. plasticbaglaws.org is currently focused on California ordinances and does not have the resources to maintain a complete comprehensive national database For more comprehensive information on a national scale, we recommend Florida Department of the Environment’s Retail Bag Report website and Hilex Poly ‘s (a plastic bag manufacturer) website. plasticbaglaws.org is in no way affiliated with these organizations.

These are the states listed website that have laws concerning plastic bag bans-

Alaska

» Arizona

» California

» Colorado

» Connecticut

» Hawaii

» Indiana

» Maryland

» New York

» Oregon

» Pennsylvania

» Texas

» Vermont

» Virginia

» Washington state

» Washington D.C.

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Most grocery stores and many others besides including Best Buy already have recycling bins for plastic bags. I bundle mine up inside a bag or two, through them in the trunk, and drop them off every once in a while at whatever grocery store I happen to be visiting.

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I recall noticing that Ft.Stockton had gotten on the bag ban bandwagon (this topic really lends itself to assonance!) and saying to Mr.l that it seemed a little surprising. He looked at me like I was clueless.

"You must not have spent much time driving around Ft.Stockton."

I'm pretty sure Ft.Stockton did not ban plastic bags because of concerns about landfill space, or how long plastic bags take to break down, or out of a cussed miserliness with respect to devoting the appropriate funds to "litter enforcement." Some people find that country bleak and evidently the view is not improved with plastic bags skewered on mesquite and barbed wire. Speaking of which, I can't think how we ever came to have so much litter, what with littering being against the law and all. I sure hope the boys in blue apprehended the scofflaw who threw the remains of their Chick Filet dinner in my yard last night!

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Speaking of which, I can't think how we ever came to have so much litter, what with littering being against the law and all. I sure hope the boys in blue apprehended the scofflaw who threw the remains of their Chick Filet dinner in my yard last night!

 

You don't strike as a particularly young person (I don't mean that rudely). As such, I am surprised that you do not remember the absolute filth that used to line every freeway and road. No, what you see today is a fraction of the litter in the 1970s. The "Don't Mess With Texas!" campaign was an act of desperation to combat the never ending and expensive litter problem. It was a smashing success. The griping we do today about litter is an attempt at cleaning up the last bit...which is always hardest.

 

Still, as a fan of the United States as a FREE country, I am always surprised at how quickly my fellow Americans jumpt to the most draconian solutions to every problem, whether it be historic preservation, drug use, or litter. Clearly, many Americans have never heard that phrase about attracting bees with honey over vinegar.

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You don't strike as a particularly young person (I don't mean that rudely). As such, I am surprised that you do not remember the absolute filth that used to line every freeway and road. No, what you see today is a fraction of the litter in the 1970s. The "Don't Mess With Texas!" campaign was an act of desperation to combat the never ending and expensive litter problem. It was a smashing success. The griping we do today about litter is an attempt at cleaning up the last bit...which is always hardest.

Still, as a fan of the United States as a FREE country, I am always surprised at how quickly my fellow Americans jumpt to the most draconian solutions to every problem, whether it be historic preservation, drug use, or litter. Clearly, many Americans have never heard that phrase about attracting bees with honey over vinegar.

Not all Americans drive a car that should have Union Jack on the roof... So your point is invalid.
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You don't strike as a particularly young person (I don't mean that rudely).

 

I'm thirteen (talk to me, RedScare!) so I can't remember that, but the plastic bags have been singled because they are a particular nuisance/eyesore.

Even the late, great Ed Abbey threw his beer cans out the window.

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