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Camden McGowen Station + New Park (Midtown Superblock)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, hindesky said:

It's far from done, the western portion is barely touched.

I think that is where the restaurant or food truck or whatever they decide to put in there will go.

It has taken forever, but look what was there before.

Crickets............

I love to remind the naysayers about their comments that the rail wouldn't produce any significant developments. 

So it took twenty years. Does anyone have a clue how much money has been spent on developments and how that has affected the tax base.

A drive up Main, from Alabama to as far north as you can go looks incredible and so dense.

Edited by bobruss
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13 hours ago, bobruss said:

I think that is where the restaurant or food truck or whatever they decide to put in there will go.

It has taken forever, but look what was there before.

Crickets............

I love to remind the naysayers about their comments that the rail wouldn't produce any significant developments. 

So it took twenty years. Does anyone have a clue how much money has been spent on developments and how that has affected the tax base.

A drive up Main, from Alabama to as far north as you can go looks incredible and so dense.

Tax base is pretty irrelevant, since there's a revenue cap. Much of this would have happened without rail, and we would still have Main as a two way street through the heart of Downtown and Midtown. Besides, density is overrated.

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17 hours ago, X.R. said:

Well, it looks like the architect finally has a plan. Think it looks great but the sidewalk seems a bit skinny.

 

 

It's skinny but not quite as skinny as it looks from the concrete.  It seems they will be flanking the sidewalk on both sides with brick, so that will probably add a good 8 inches to each side.  Still, it will be narrower than downtown sidewalks, but it will be wider than those installed in residential areas.

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On 5/14/2019 at 9:03 AM, Luminare said:

Seeing as its being built and it probably passed review then its neither a tripping hazard nor is it inaccessible to wheelchairs. Case closed.

Apparently the builder didn't think so; it's nice and smooth now.

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I thought we had finally made progress with the public realm issue. I guess Ric needs to go back to school. 

But then again he is the one who said they would not be putting any retail in their project. Who designs what 4 or five blocks of apartments in a very urban setting and doesn't leave any space for retail. Don't any of these people think about the future and necessities for urban living. At least Mid Main and Caydon have sense to realize that retail helps sell a project.

 

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As part of the Main Street improvements, they took up all the sidewalks on Main and made them narrower than the original sidewalks. The landscaping looks great, but it does not justify reducing the width of the sidewalks.

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Why wouldn’t they have shifted the apartment building all the way up to McGowan, thus allowing for a larger Midtown Park?  Just a thought.

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:11 PM, MarathonMan said:

Why wouldn’t they have shifted the apartment building all the way up to McGowan, thus allowing for a larger Midtown Park?  Just a thought.

Camden owned the blocks where the apartment building is, and wouldn't swap with the Midtown TIRZ so that the park could be bigger

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1 minute ago, cspwal said:

Camden owned the blocks where the apartment building is, and wouldn't swap with the Midtown TIRZ so that the park could be bigger

 

This is why I don't think its necessarily the "architect" thats been slowing this down. My feeling is that if this portion is being funded by Midtown TIRZ then there are all kinds of hands being put into this one that has slowed this process down. Probably a case of "too many cooks in the kitchen". You wouldn't believe how much a client will want to change things on a whim. This then pushes the Architect to change things which frustrates the GC which then goes down the Subs who then blame the architect because why blame the owner if they are the ones that are funding the whole thing. I'm sure there were a lot of change orders with this one. Not fun.

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On 6/17/2019 at 11:03 AM, Luminare said:

 

My feeling is that if this portion is being funded by Midtown TIRZ then there are all kinds of hands being put into this one that has slowed this process down. Probably a case of "too many cooks in the kitchen".

I agree.  Midtown TIRZ has a good vision, but their project management skills are DISMAL!  The Caroline Street re-do was delayed for years and is now under way but going so slowly that it should be done by 2030.  It’s truly mind-boggling!

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Two portable signs have gone up with the message that McGowen will be closed between Main and Travis Streets on 6/29 -6/30 and 7/6 -7/7
Might this be either to complete the small park on the north side of McGowen Station, or to finish the pads and install the buildings for restaurants?



 

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Posted (edited)

The completion of this project is truly laughable.  Caydon, across the street, completed their Drewery Place streetscape in about a week.

Edited by MarathonMan
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On 6/28/2019 at 8:16 PM, ekdrm2d1 said:

AxhhttZ.jpg

This photo makes it looks like there's two supervisors overseeing one employee

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8 hours ago, cspwal said:

This photo makes it looks like there's two supervisors overseeing one employee

 

and a sign protecting his virtue.

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Will they still be working on this when 2027 Superbowl rolls into town?

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3 hours ago, cspwal said:

Will they still be working on this when 2027 Superbowl rolls into town?

 

while this will be finished, unfortunately this will not be: 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 10:43 AM, cspwal said:
On 4/17/2017 at 8:29 AM, urbanize713 said:

Yep, two actually. One restaurant and one kiosk.

HnlSiO5h.jpg

 

@gclass In the original drawings, it was supposed to be a "tree grove" and plaza.  At the corner of Travis and McGowen was supposed to be a restaurant, which they haven't even started by the looks of it

 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 11:01 AM, bobruss said:

Your right there is a site for a restaurant pad. They might still be looking for a concept to interject their own architecture and haven't worked out a lease yet.

Just speculating.


 

On 5/25/2019 at 8:42 PM, bobruss said:
On 5/25/2019 at 6:19 PM, hindesky said:

It's far from done, the western portion is barely touched.

I think that is where the restaurant or food truck or whatever they decide to put in there will go.

It has taken forever, but look what was there before.

Crickets............

I love to remind the naysayers about their comments that the rail wouldn't produce any significant developments. 

So it took twenty years. Does anyone have a clue how much money has been spent on developments and how that has affected the tax base.

A drive up Main, from Alabama to as far north as you can go looks incredible and so dense.

Edited May 25 by bobruss





I thought I saw something about the below post in the forum a few months ago. I searched and scanned the Midtown threads but saw nothing. So if this is a repost, please let me know so it can be removed.

From an April meeting the board of directors of the Midtown Redevelopment Authority, there was this update on the Midtown Park, part of the Midtown Superblock in the posted minutes:


Mr. (Bob) Sellingsloh reported that the Midtown Staff and consultants were exploring the possibility of constructing a food hall with multiple smaller food vendors in the area designated for a restaurant on the Front 90 portion of Midtown Park. He outlined the benefits of a food hall and stated that several of the top 7 potential tenants for the Bagby Park Kiosk also expressed interest in leasing space in the food hall.

https://midtownhouston.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/MRA-Minutes-4.30.2019.pdf (archive link)

 


 

Edited by CrockpotandGravel
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7 minutes ago, CrockpotandGravel said:


 

 




I thought I something about the below post in the forum a few months ago. I searched and scanned the Midtown threads but saw nothing. So if this is a repost, please let me know so\ it can be removed.

From an April meeting the board of directors of the Midtown Redevelopment Authority, there was this update on the Midtown Park, part of the Midtown Superblock in the posted minutes:


Mr. (Bob) Sellingsloh reported that the Midtown Staff and consultants were exploring the possibility of constructing a food hall with multiple smaller food vendors in the area designated for a restaurant on the Front 90 portion of Midtown Park. He outlined the benefits of a food hall and stated that several of the top 7 potential tenants for the Bagby Park Kiosk also expressed interest in leasing space in the food hall.

https://midtownhouston.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/MRA-Minutes-4.30.2019.pdf (archive link)

 


 

 

Sounds like new info to me. Would this be at the smaller park or the bigger one. If its the bigger one the only likely place I could think of would be at area "D" the "Arts Plaza". Would make sense given what is happening across the street. Smart move by them.

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The original plans displayed on this site in the early stages shoed two restaurant or food pads. They were to be erected on the north end or smaller park area.

Thats all I know. Those plans above seem to be the plans that I remember seeing.

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On 4/17/2017 at 8:29 AM, urbanize713 said:

Yep, two actually. One restaurant and one kiosk.

HnlSiO5h.jpg

 


 

On 5/13/2019 at 11:01 AM, bobruss said:

Your right there is a site for a restaurant pad. They might still be looking for a concept to interject their own architecture and haven't worked out a lease yet.

Just speculating.

 

 

14 hours ago, bobruss said:

The original plans displayed on this site in the early stages shoed two restaurant or food pads. They were to be erected on the north end or smaller park area.

Thats all I know. Those plans above seem to be the plans that I remember seeing.




I can't find an updated site plan for the other portion of Midtown Park to include restaurant and kiosk pads. The more recent I could locate (there may be a more recent one but I didn't come across one) are these plans from a 2017 leasing brochure from Littwitz Investments.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58d2bf64ebbd1a5a94a363a5/t/59b93bcb37c581dddc151a9f/1505311741530/Midtown+Park+OM+8.2017+rs.pdf (archive link)


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15 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

Sounds like new info to me. Would this be at the smaller park or the bigger one. If its the bigger one the only likely place I could think of would be at area "D" the "Arts Plaza". Would make sense given what is happening across the street. Smart move by them.



Good to know. Thanks.

The way I read the minutes, the proposed food hall would go in the restaurant pad shown on the site plan above for Midtown Park (part of the Midtown Super Block with the Caydon McGowen Station apartments next to it). Further clarifications could have been made in subsequent meetings. Maybe we'll know more once the minutes from the June and July meetings are uploaded.
 

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Posted (edited)

The very first entry into this thread by brian0123,  2012, is what I'm referring to. It has the very same plan with the two restaurant pads in red. 

I don't know where it came from but it was the first post.

Edited by bobruss
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3 hours ago, CrockpotandGravel said:



Good to know. Thanks.

The way I read the minutes, the proposed food hall would go in the restaurant pad shown on the site plan above for Midtown Park (part of the Midtown Super Block with the Caydon McGowen Station apartments next to it). Further clarifications could have been made in subsequent meetings. Maybe we'll know more once the minutes from the June and July meetings are uploaded.
 

 

Well Well. This looks to be the reason why this portion of the property has taken so long to be finished. Mystery solved. That is definitely an updated site plan. I'll be updating this on the map soon. Honestly, as I said earlier, its a smart play. We complain about Camden a lot on here for their slow pace, but it seems this was a little more of a strategic play. We forget just how much of an empty canvas Midtown still is, so when one trend pops up or when one developer does one thing its going to quickly change plans for another. I mean lets be real the idea for the pad site was something one usually would have done 10 years ago when this was mostly developed, but now with latest trends we now have more sophisticated options to handle that space which is fantastic. Unfortunately, it meant this part of the property got put on hold indefinitely, but it might just pay off for them. That corner is near a key light rail station between TMC and Downtown, and the 82 bus route from Montrose to Downtown. Even with all our knowledge about insider industry info we still can be oblivious to other market forces that happen...which is why I always try to instill in every thread that we have to wait and see what happens because we just don't know. Great find as always @CrockpotandGravel

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On 7/22/2019 at 6:58 AM, bobruss said:

The very first entry into this thread by brian0123,  2012, is what I'm referring to. It has the very same plan with the two restaurant pads in red. 

I don't know where it came from but it was the first post.


Ahh, okay. 

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There's a kind of tall stand-alone plaque for Midtown Park on the northside of the building. I didn't get a photo but noticed it on my drive-by today.

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On 7/26/2019 at 7:27 PM, ekdrm2d1 said:

Lots of flowers were planted this week.

 

TbFsqkV.jpg

I don’t mind plants but damn I’d say cut that in half at least and give more to the sidewalk. 

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:58 AM, Luminare said:

 

Well Well. This looks to be the reason why this portion of the property has taken so long to be finished. Mystery solved. That is definitely an updated site plan. I'll be updating this on the map soon. Honestly, as I said earlier, its a smart play. We complain about Camden a lot on here for their slow pace, but it seems this was a little more of a strategic play. We forget just how much of an empty canvas Midtown still is, so when one trend pops up or when one developer does one thing its going to quickly change plans for another. I mean lets be real the idea for the pad site was something one usually would have done 10 years ago when this was mostly developed, but now with latest trends we now have more sophisticated options to handle that space which is fantastic. Unfortunately, it meant this part of the property got put on hold indefinitely, but it might just pay off for them. That corner is near a key light rail station between TMC and Downtown, and the 82 bus route from Montrose to Downtown. Even with all our knowledge about insider industry info we still can be oblivious to other market forces that happen...which is why I always try to instill in every thread that we have to wait and see what happens because we just don't know. Great find as always @CrockpotandGravel

 

Let's not give credit where credit isn't due. Regardless of what goes in that restaurant pad site, there never should have been a restaurant pad site, there should have been ground floor retail with apartments above, and the apartments located either at one end of the block or the other, not straddling the middle. Instead, the public spaces in this project are fragmented and the building inefficiently sprawls across the site like a 1970's college dorm, leaving a sterile streetscape and a divided public realm. All this because Camden/Ric Campo was self-centered and lacked vision, still believing as late as the mid-2010's that ground floor retail just wouldn't work in Houston and siting the apartments with no concern other than proximity to the rail station. The whole thing is a shame and we would probably have been better off if there had never been a superblock, because then the apartments and park would have been forced to conform to an urban grid pattern instead of this suburban-style mish-mash.

 

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On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 7:27 PM, ekdrm2d1 said:

Lots of flowers were planted this week.

 

TbFsqkV.jpg

 

Here's another nice suburban motif. Narrow sidewalks with a wide landscaped embankment, to prudely defend the private domain from the scary public street.

 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Let's not give credit where credit isn't due. Regardless of what goes in that restaurant pad site, there never should have been a restaurant pad site, there should have been ground floor retail with apartments above, and the apartments located either at one end of the block or the other, not straddling the middle. Instead, the public spaces in this project are fragmented and the building inefficiently sprawls across the site like a 1970's college dorm, leaving a sterile streetscape and a divided public realm. All this because Camden/Ric Campo was self-centered and lacked vision, still believing as late as the mid-2010's that ground floor retail just wouldn't work in Houston and siting the apartments with no concern other than proximity to the rail station. The whole thing is a shame and we would probably have been better off if there had never been a superblock, because then the apartments and park would have been forced to conform to an urban grid pattern instead of this suburban-style mish-mash.

 

 

You seem to only be approaching this from a very unfair negative view point, but also from a highly emotional one as well. I think its been interesting watching the growth a Camden's approach to midtown. One of their first approaches was the Camden Midtown Apartments (at least I remember them building that) which is your typical suburban garden apartments. Then they raised their game and went more urban with the Travis Street Apartments, and now we have their McGowen Apartments which is a significant improvement. This evolution of development shows they are trying, and are improving. Are they the most perfect and high minded developer in this city...not really, but they are trying. So I am going to give credit where credit is due. Of course we should criticize them for not doing ground floor retail as its something they can improve upon, but let us remember that we have the advantage of hindsight. When they developed these it was a completely different story back then. We can even go back to and look at the discussions in this very thread, and it wasn't assured that retail would work in this area of town at all. Its also easy for us to say add retail, but we aren't taking the risks in building something, or design something. I understand that people on here have a real axe to grind when it comes to Camden and Ric Campo, but emotions aside they are improving and building in Houston because they see potential here even if they don't fully realize the max potential the city has. I also highly contend with your notion that this area would have been better off without this development. A big reason we now have better developers like Caydon is precisely because of this development and the park. While the apartments themselves are so-so, the park is beautiful and is innovative. Its visually interesting, and would like to see their approach to water detention implemented in more parts of the city. Cayden has also heavily been marketing the fact that they are next to this park. You think marketing would be better if it were a massive completely empty stretch of land? I completely disagree with this wild notion that if something isn't 100% pure, virtuous, and high utopia in ideals than it shouldn't be built at all. Its so absurd. This is urban and it is a significant improvement from what was there before, and hopefully (and it looks like its going to be the case) it will only get better from here. Its so easy for you to criticize this, but put yourself in their shoes and you try to walk the path to build something like this, and then comeback to me and tell me what you were able to build. Probably for the time and place this was conceived...it would have been nothing different.

Edited by Luminare
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I rather like the idea of two separate green spaces.  If Camden had just added a little space to the larger park, and eliminated the pocket park, the larger really wouldn't feel any larger. 

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2 minutes ago, Luminare said:

 

You seem to only be approaching this from a very unfair negative view point, but also from a highly emotional one as well. I think its been interesting watching the growth a Camden's approach to midtown. One of their first approaches was the Camden Midtown Apartments (at least I remember them building that) which is your typical suburban garden apartments. Then they raised their game and went more urban with the Travis Street Apartments, and now we have their McGowen Apartments which is a significant improvement. This evolution of development shows they are trying, and are improving. Are they the most perfect and high minded developer in this city...not really, but they are trying. So I am going to give credit where credit is due. Of course we should criticize them for not doing ground floor retail as its something they can improve upon, but let us remember that we have the advantage of hindsight. When they developed these it was a completely different story back then. We can even go back to and look at the discussions in this very thread, and it wasn't assured that retail would work in this area of town at all. Its also easy for us to say add retail, but we aren't taking the risks in building something, or design something. I understand that people on here have a real axe to grind when it comes to Camden and Ric Campo, but emotions aside they are improving and building in Houston because they see potential here even if they don't fully realize the max potential the city has. I also highly contend your notion that this area would have been better off without this development. A big reason we now have better developers like Caydon is precisely because of this development and the park. While the apartments themselves are so-so, the park is beautiful and is innovative. Its visually interesting, and would like to see their approach to water detention implemented in more parts of the city. Cayden has also heavily been marketing the fact that they are next to this park. You think marketing would be better if it were a massive completely empty stretch of land? I completely disagree with this wild notion that if something isn't 100% pure, virtuous, and high utopia in ideals than it shouldn't be built at all. Its so absurd. This is urban and it is a significant improvement from what was there before, and hopefully (and it looks like its going to be the case) it will only get better from here. Its so easy for you to criticize this, but put yourself in their shoes and you try to walk the path to build something like this, and then comeback to me and tell me what you were able to build. Probably for the time and place this was conceived...it would have been nothing different.

 

You started off okay, but about midway through your post you were answering things that I never said or would have said. No, I did not say "that the area would have been better off without this development," I said it would have been better "if there had never been a superblock, because then the apartments and park would have been forced to conform to an urban grid pattern instead of this suburban-style mish-mash." Pretty starkly different statement that I am wondering if you even read or just skimmed.

 

As to the "they're trying, they're getting better," yes they are getting better, but they are lagging what other developers in Houston and peer cities are doing by about 15 years. Post built ground-floor retail apartments in Midtown around the year 2001, then expanded them when they were successful. So please tell me why Campo couldn't deliver GFR along the rail line in circa 2015, especially when Mid-Main was building it at the same time a few blocks away and without the benefit of a park? You say "it was a completely different story back then" but we are talking about four years ago when dozens of mixed-use projects were underway across the city and state.

 

Finally, the whole "comeback to me and tell me what you were able to build" is the equivalent of when someone at a ballpark criticizes the pitcher for walking in a run and then someone turns around and says, "Why don't you try to go out there and pitch." Come on, this is an architecture forum, there is no problem in criticizing something like this.

 

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8 minutes ago, Naviguessor said:

I rather like the idea of two separate green spaces.  If Camden had just added a little space to the larger park, and eliminated the pocket park, the larger really wouldn't feel any larger. 

 

We can probably agree to disagree. I think that generally a larger park is better than two smaller parks if they are in close vicinity. When they built the park for the Transco Tower, they didn't stick the building in the middle of the block with the waterwall and a little green space on one side and the rest of the green space on the other side, they made a single grand park. The thing about the park on Mcgowen is that it's not really a park, it's a pad site for restaurants which should be underneath the building.

 

If the apartments are pushed to the southern end of the block and the park is on the northern end with a nice view across from McGowen, plus a nice view of the park from the rail station,  I think everybody wins. This was what the Midtown Redevelopment Authority wanted, but Camden insisted on putting the building adjacent to the rail station. They didn't think their residents would want to walk to the station 100 feet away.

 

 

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12 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I don’t mind plants but damn I’d say cut that in half at least and give more to the sidewalk. 

 

I walked and rode that area the last few weeks since the fence came down, the sidewalk is very nice, I like the brick. Sidewalk isn't bad, its a little wider than it looks in the pic, but that grassy area is very wide its true. Kind of a pain if you're trying to get to the train really quickly. I feel like this expansive amount of flowers and stuff makes the idea of main being closed to cars...more appealing? Now you have the park (green), these massive flowerways connecting the southern part to the northern part, and then the northern part (the green trees and splash pad thing). Its going to be alot of green (assuming those flowers don't die), and thus now you'll have a beautiful roadway for cars 😂 or maybe the best bike lane in Houston, Texas.  

 

@H-Town Man brings up a good point. If you walk that block, it is sorta weird that this isn't like the part of midtown by Bagby where theres food place/bar every few steps. Kinda sucks. Riding the redline on the weekends, you get a lot of younger people riding for one or two stops then getting off, which kind of highlights how...slow that area can be by Camden. Which definitely should not be the case. That restaurant can't come soon enough.  

 

 

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Camden's developments have created long, featureless blocks that will detract from the walkabilty of Midtown until the day that the miserable things are demolished.
 

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13 minutes ago, dbigtex56 said:

Camden's developments have created long, featureless blocks that will detract from the walkabilty of Midtown until the day that the miserable things are demolished.
 

 

...yep I'm definitely getting out of this thread. Not even worth it. Have fun with y'alls rant fest

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I hope the city planning department figures this out before it gets all built out. There needs to be GFR in every block.

Whats the purpose of building a neighborhood without places to walk to in the neighborhood?

I don't care about the argument that you don't own the property so you don't make the rules. If there aren't planning rules we'd have a bunch of shty

apartment buildings that are full of parking lots. That doesn't promote the neighborhood. Its ugly and defeats the purpose of walkability.

For the future benefit of the area they need to plan ahead and make room for the needs of a vibrant, affective neighborhood.

Trees, lighting, nice wide sidewalks, bike lanes and retail. Then you begin to see people getting out of their cars, and walking in the hood.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bobruss said:

I hope the city planning department figures this out before it gets all built out. There needs to be GFR in every block.

Whats the purpose of building a neighborhood without places to walk to in the neighborhood?

I don't care about the argument that you don't own the property so you don't make the rules. If there aren't planning rules we'd have a bunch of shty

apartment buildings that are full of parking lots. That doesn't promote the neighborhood. Its ugly and defeats the purpose of walkability.

For the future benefit of the area they need to plan ahead and make room for the needs of a vibrant, affective neighborhood.

Trees, lighting, nice wide sidewalks, bike lanes and retail. Then you begin to see people getting out of their cars, and walking in the hood.

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

Edited by quietstorm
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1 hour ago, quietstorm said:

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

 

What has MidMain Lofts done differently?  They probably have the most available spots for GFR of any recently built multifamily and all but 2 spaces are currently leased.

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2 hours ago, quietstorm said:

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

Thats not necessarily true. If so then I guess all of these new additions to the galleria River Oaks district and the Village are for nothing. All I'm saying is once the blocks are filled in without GFR you can't come back and add it. Some day maybe not in my lifetime there will be sufficient numbers of people living downtown, midtown to justify stores, dentists, barbers, hardware stores, florist, beauty shops, bookstores, reataurants and bars. 

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4 hours ago, EllenOlenska said:

As a millennial I want to say: we have legs. 

But it your thumbs that everybody notices. 

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