Thoughts On The Suburbs

[The Great Hizzy!]

Mass Transit should be promoted as an option. The idea of saddling mass transit with the burden of alleviating the large amounts of traffic and congestion in a metropolitan area is unfair to mass transit. Even the most successful of mass transit metropolises, (that is, New York) has major league traffic within its five boroughs and the surrounding miles and miles of suburbs. The options, however, are there and they are plentiful.

To that end, these cities/metros have so-called better mas transit systems than Houston but also have worse vehicular traffic:

Los Angeles, CA

San Francisco-San Jose-Oakland, CA

Chicago, IL

Washington, DC/VA/MD

Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL (granted, M-FL-WPB may not have as good an overall transit system as Houston but at the worst is slightly less productive)

The point is that given the mindset and the sensibilities of millions of people--including those who live IN the city core--it's unrealistic to think that a 50, 100, 200 or even 300 mile rail system will eliminate traffic. However, it is a great thing to have the option. Furthermore, having the option allows for flexibility under varying circumstances, like if you normally worked in Westchase, lived in Katy, but had to perform jury duty for three weeks and had no desire to deal with the traffic going to and coming back from DT. Well, you have the option of taking the P&R or even commuter rail, then having the option of using the current LRT or system of buses to get around DT or to nearby areas for lunch or to run errands.

It works in reverse as well. Say you live in the Montrose and work in the Museum District but you have to attend a seminar in Greenspoint for a week and access to the 56 Airline or whatever other form of public transport takes too long, given your circumstances. Having a mature system of freeways would allow one to make use of a vehicle and maximize travel efficiencies to such a (relatively speaking) far flung location, including traveling off-site for lunch or to run errands, etc.

As for pro-rail and pro-highway groups, both have the right idea in general, but like with so many things, we've taken on a "my way or else" type of mentality and there seems to be very little give and take. So you have the national transportation chair playing games for years and years in a ploy to serve the biases of his constituents rather than meet the overall demands of the region at-large. It's also why you have the more militant of urbanists rallying day and night against any type of road project, filing suit and delaying start dates for months at a time, and oft times under the misguided notion that the road project is going to lead to sprawl when the bigger contributor to sprawl are not the roads and highways but bars and restaurants.

Bars and restaurants you say, Hizzy? What are you talking about.

If men and women didn't hook up at bars and clubs, there'd be no nooky, there'd be no reproduction, there would be no growing population base and thus no need to expand the housing stock in all directions.

You want to stop sprawl? Stop having sex!

Heh.

But seriously, the bigger obstacle isn't finding a cure all for traffic woes, it's understanding the need to use a multi-faceted approach to serving the traffic needs/whims/what have you of the population overall. So I personally welcome CRT, BRT, HRT, LRT and whatever else you got, just as I personally welcome the expansion of a historically undersized highway.

My main problem with sprawl/suburbs/etc has always been not the fact that people would rather live in a less dense, heavily landscaping structure with lots of personal space and so forth, it's the fact that developers often build there communities on a virtual island, away from neighboring communities, away from prime transportation corridors and away from prime commercial districts. They create a spotted and dislocated landscape overall. If the sprawl in Houston was more reminiscent of, say, the neighborhood stock along Braeswood or Beechnut heading west from about Buffalo Speedway to Hillcroft, you wouldn't ever hear a peep out of me. Instead, we more have the philosophical approach that you see in the far north suburbs: a relativley nice cluster of developments seperated from other clusters by "X" amount of unused land.

I also would rather not pay $2.15 a gallon for gas, even if I'm getting 29 MPG.

[The Great Hizzy!]

But, the only way to see my brother in the Woodlands, or my parents in Spring, is to drive. Those who can't afford the thousand dollar a month auto bill need options. Rail is one. Bus is one. But we need them all.

I posted that long, drawn out drivel and didn't read this part of your post, Red Scare. You pretty much summed up my crap in three lines.

[LTAWACS]

That's nice and all.. but I'm about to close on a 4 bedroom, 3 bath, 2 car garage - a 2500sq ft,  one story brick sitting on a 10k sq ft lot - all for about 150k "drive out" price in Sugarland.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im sorry.

[kjb434]

Yes, mass transit should never be looked at to solve any traffic problem because it can't. Mass transit IS only an option that should be made available.

We should stop these freeway projects. Spending the money on rail will not offset the what freeway expansion would have provided in traffic relief. We need both.

Also, it can be argued that mass transit to the suburbs will cause more sprawl. Just look at Chicago and New York.

Much of the far flung Chicago suburbs are touted as close to a rail line. You can live farther out and still work in town. Also, when trains first made there debut as mass transit options, it was often the suburban people for them and the urban people against it.

[RedScare]

I posted that long, drawn out drivel and didn't read this part of your post, Red Scare. You pretty much summed up my crap in three lines.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, and I didn't propose banning SEX either!

[kjb434]

LOL

[MidtownCoog]

Related article from USA Today

As cities tried to attract the "creative class" of singles, gays and childless couples, "they might have priced themselves out of the reach of these immigrants," Lang says. "An increasingly larger share of immigration is benefiting older suburbs rather than central cities."

Big cities that are continuing to grow

[pineda]

McAllen, Texas with 13.4%, Laredo, Texas with 14.6%, and Brownsville, Texas with 15.4% were the big winners in the population growth game, which I could have guessed but the surprise to me was Amarillo, Texas with 4.1%, Lubbock, Texas with 4.1%, and Mesquite, Texas with 4.2%. I haven't been up to Amarillo or Lubbock in a few years, is it really trending upward there? Wichita Falls, not that far from there, is downshifting.

[MidtownCoog]

Another related article:

Housing costs, congestion driving Americans out of big cities

Associated Press

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/3247598

[pineda]

Great article about Port St. Lucie and Miramar!

My uncle, who lived in Cleveland two years ago, now lives in Port St. Lucie and loves it! He sold his businesses in the Cleveland area and left because he said he couldn't stand the snow anymore, and now he does property management for absentee landowners in the Port St. Lucie area, and sits on the beach at sunset every day, for hours!

[bachanon]

this is why affordable (not subsidized), family friendly housing must be introduced into the city centers. it is possible.

[LTAWACS]

Great article about Port St. Lucie and Miramar!

My uncle, who lived in Cleveland two years ago, now lives in Port St. Lucie and loves it! He sold his businesses in the Cleveland area and left because he said he couldn't stand the snow anymore, and now he does property management for absentee landowners in the Port St. Lucie area, and sits on the beach at sunset every day, for hours!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Must be nice...

[The Great Hizzy!]

Port St. Lucie is what Boca Raton and Pompano Beach were back in the 50s. It's amazing how those southern coastal cities in Florida are growing. Jupiter and Juno Beach Florida (both being just to the north of West Palm Beach) are hot markets for new developments that appeal mostly to northerners who want a less crowded lifestyle.

I'm surprised Padre Island hasn't seen a development boom like this that caters to these types of people. Beautiful area in its own right.

[Guest danax]

this is why affordable (not subsidized), family friendly housing must be introduced into the city centers.  it is possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have tons of affordable housing inside the loop already, and they are attracting immigrants. They don't have a glamourous name like "affordable housing" though. Usually we just call them cheap, overcrowded, run-down apartment complexes. I saw a bandit sign yesterday inside the loop (East end) for apartments starting at $385 mo.

[bachanon]

We have tons of affordable housing inside the loop already, and they are attracting immigrants. They don't have a glamourous name like "affordable housing" though. Usually we just call them cheap, overcrowded, run-down apartment complexes. I saw a bandit sign yesterday inside the loop (East end) for apartments starting at $385 mo.

let me rephrase, new, affordable housing.

[LTAWACS]

We have tons of affordable housing inside the loop already, and they are attracting immigrants. They don't have a glamourous name like "affordable housing" though. Usually we just call them cheap, overcrowded, run-down apartment complexes. I saw a bandit sign yesterday inside the loop (East end) for apartments starting at $385 mo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Argh. I uesed to rent a garage apartment near Mason Park for $200. And it was nice.

[VicMan]

I think that what's happened in HISD is that a lot of middle- and upper-class families have abandoned the neighborhood schools, even if they haven't abandoned the neighborhoods themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In some areas the reverse happened. River Oaks got their elementary school zoning boundaries back around 1996, and I know some people in River Oaks who have/had kids in public schools. For each grade level there is one class that is "neighborhood" (which is made up of people who live in River Oaks and siblings of G/T kids) and three or four "G/T" classes.

I would imagine that to be true in neighborhoods with schools that do not have good reputations.

For instance, a friend of mine lives near Hobby Airport in a middle class area. He goes to a magnet school and his sister went to River Oaks (and is going to Pershing Middle). The neighborhood kids raise farm animals and enter a farming association, which is their ticket to Lamar High School.

The neighborhood is zoned to Garden Villas Elementary, Hartman Middle (which is getting a brand new campus), and Sterling High.

[pineda]

Vic, you said, "In some areas the reverse happened. River Oaks got their elementary school zoning boundaries back around 1996, and I know some people in River Oaks who have/had kids in public schools. For each grade level there is one class that is "neighborhood" (which is made up of people who live in River Oaks and siblings of G/T kids) and three or four "G/T" classes.

For instance, a friend of mine lives near Hobby Airport in a middle class area. He goes to a magnet school and his sister went to River Oaks (and is going to Pershing Middle). The neighborhood kids raise farm animals and enter a farming association, which is their ticket to Lamar High School."

So, you can live near Hobby Airport and still go to River Oaks Elementary? How long would that bus ride be everyday for these kids? Or is bus service not included?

Also, three of four G/T classe and only one "neighborhood" class? With kids in those G/T classes coming from as far away as Hobby? Wouldn't that be considered a "brain drain" from the locally zoned schools? Why would HISD encourage this and not just properly fix every school to make them as acceptable and desirable as River Oaks?

And to get into Lamar, kids from outside the zoned neighborhoods have to raise livestock for a FFA program?

For all these reasons that you listed, Vic, as testimony for HISD schools being good; to any outsider reading your statements, you just showed why HISD needs to be fixed.

If there are only a couple of worthwhile schools within the HISD, why would anybody want to go through the gut-wrenching waiting and wondering process to see if your kids or future kids would be able to get into these elite schools? Houston's quite a large city, and you've only mentioned a small handful of schools within the HISD worth sending kids to. This is not exactly a ringing endorsements of HISD; but only a boast of how a couple of schools are worthwhile. But the rest....?

Also, these special programs and magnet school offerings pull kids from the neighborhood zoned schools, and further disintegrates the social fabric of the neighborhood in which they live, doesn't it? You could have kids living next door to each other, going to different schools and parents eyes their neighbors as competition. This isn't healthy, for the kids, parents or the neighborhood.

Maybe HISD should charge private school tuition if they're treating some of their schools as private academies that only the few gifted and talented kids can attend.

Sorry to go on about this, but your arguments for HISD just don't hold up.

These arguments you have set forth to justify why HISD is such a good district (for a few) are yet just another reason why people move into areas like Cy-Fair, Klein and Conroe school districts; because they feel comfortable in knowing that the neighborhood schools that they will be zoned to are good in their own right.

Private schools (like HISD magnet programs) are an option, but not a necessity to get away from those neighborhood schools. The flight to the 'burbs by families is primarily necessitated by a search for good schools for their kids. If HISD could actually fix their neighborhood schools, people (with school-age children) would most likely flock back into those neighborhoods. And property values would skyrocket.

[Guest danax]

Related article from USA Today

As cities tried to attract the "creative class" of singles, gays and childless couples, "they might have priced themselves out of the reach of these immigrants," Lang says. "An increasingly larger share of immigration is benefiting older suburbs rather than central cities."

Big cities that are continuing to grow

[VicMan]

"So, you can live near Hobby Airport and still go to River Oaks Elementary? How long would that bus ride be everyday for these kids? Or is bus service not included?"

Bus service is included. And yes, one can live near Hobby Airport (if in HISD boundaries) and go to River Oaks ES (as most of the school is the Vanguard program, which is a magnet program). I do not know how long the bus ride is.

"And to get into Lamar, kids from outside the zoned neighborhoods have to raise livestock for a FFA program? "

Most kids who go to Lamar who are outside of Lamar's zoning boundaries enter the business magnet program.

However, Lamar is mainly filled with people inside its attendance boundaries. Lamar has a very large zoning boundary that includes many neighborhoods (Braeswood east of Stella Link, West University, most of Southside Place, River Oaks, Memorial ES, Poe ES, parts of the Gregory-Lincoln area, Montrose). Yes, Lamar takes "regular" kids.

Bellaire, the other HISD high school with the IB program, also gets "regular" kids.

As for the neighborhood schools, is there any way the TEA can force all schools to have the same pay rates? That way, HISD could attract better teachers and place them at the neighborhood schools...

[MidtownCoog]

So could HISD's liberal transfer program actually increase the number of bad school in the district?

If all the good ones leave for the few good school, talk about a sad mix of bad eggs.

[VicMan]

Most likely many of the kids who go to the magnet schools would not be in HISD in the first place if there were no magnet schools.

Magnet schools and magnet programs were made to keep higher income people in HISD.

[MidtownCoog]

Hmmm...

I want smart poor people, too.

But I digress.

[VicMan]

Hmmm...

I want smart poor people, too.

But I digress.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course, many of the magnet schools also attract people who are on the free/reduced lunch program.

The all magnet Vanguard High School had 27% Free/Reduced kids in 2002-2003 and 33% 2003-2004. Lamar, Bellaire, and Westside (three zoned high schools) had rates around 27%. (I forgot to mention that all houses that are zoned to Lee High School also have Lamar and Westside as options).

DeBakey (an all-magnet Health Sciences school) had 50% as of 03-04.

HISD plans to introduce the IB program at Yates and Houston High Schools (two zone schools) as a way to take them out of the unacceptable levels.

As for magnet programs in general, I notice that they are often seen in other urban school districts.

[pineda]

Magnet schools and magnet programs were made to keep higher income people in HISD.

DeBakey (an all-magnet Health Sciences school) had 50% as of 03-04.

I think you just shot yourself in the foot with your own rebuttal on this one.

[VicMan]

I think you just shot yourself in the foot with your own rebuttal on this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think of it this way, magnet programs were made to keep higher income people in HISD (I believe it originated from a desegregation plan).

But that doesn't mean all of them are mostly made of higher income people.

(By the way, HSPVA, an all magnet performing arts school, has 9% free/reduced lunch)

Now, how can HISD and the TEA make neighborhood schools (think Garden Villas ES) so that people who have a choice between a private and a public would enroll their kids in neighborhood schools?

Is there a way to make all teacher pay rates the same throughout Texas?

[pineda]

I'm wondering, Vic, if pooling extra resources and extra money towards the magnet program does not dilute the resources that would normally be allocated towards improving the neighborhood schools?

[MidtownCoog]

That's kinda what I was wondering, too.

[skwatra]

another article about growth in suburbs:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3248714

[VicMan]

It's no surprise Pearland is growing; there is still a lot of land left in northern Brazoria..

I can't tell if magnet programs in HISD are sapping resources from traditional schools. All I know is that HISD likes them and that HISD is establishing another brand new magnet high school in southern Houston.