Bank Of The Southwest Building

[Houston19514]

The recommended parking ratio for most investment-grade office buildings is 3.0 spaces per thousand square feet of leasable space. In Central Business Districts with excellent mass transit access and privately-owned offsite parking garages/lots, you can usually get away with about 2.0 spaces. Still, if that were a 3 million square foot building, you'd need 6,000 spaces. That need can typically be reduced by incorporating apartments or condos into the mix, but it'd still require one space per bedroom as per City code.

To give you an relative measure of how large the parking garage would need to be, the new 14-level garage owned by Cambridge Development just south of the Fannin/Knight Street split has a 1,200-vehicle capacity. There just gets to be a point where people become severely inconvenienced by higher and higher parking garages.

What is the Fannin/Knight Street split?

Would the building really have been likely to have 3 million square feet of leasable space? Seems a little unlikely. According to its website, the Chase Tower has just under 2 million square feet of gross building space (not gross leasable space).

Edited August 31, 2006 by Houston19514

[Montrose1100]

The recommended parking ratio for most investment-grade office buildings is 3.0 spaces per thousand square feet of leasable space. In Central Business Districts with excellent mass transit access and privately-owned offsite parking garages/lots, you can usually get away with about 2.0 spaces. Still, if that were a 3 million square foot building, you'd need 6,000 spaces. That need can typically be reduced by incorporating apartments or condos into the mix, but it'd still require one space per bedroom as per City code.

To give you an relative measure of how large the parking garage would need to be, the new 14-level garage owned by Cambridge Development just south of the Fannin/Knight Street split has a 1,200-vehicle capacity. There just gets to be a point where people become severely inconvenienced by higher and higher parking garages.

Thats why alot of building have a parking garage a few levels below the ground, and some on the first (say) 7 stories or so. (i.e. Heritage Plaza, 2 Shell Plaza, Pheonix Tower, Houston Center, etc.).

On another note, the old enron twins & continental center (+cullen center) seem to have giant garages surrounding them, with skywalks to the buildings.

[TheNiche]

What is the Fannin/Knight Street split?

Would the building really have been likely to have 3 million square feet of leasable space? Seems a little unlikely. According to its website, the Chase Tower has just under 2 million square feet of gross building space (not gross leasable space).

The Fannin/Knight Street split is where Fannin and Knight Street intersect...but the way they intersect is less like a T and more like a Y. Depending on the lanes that you're in and the direction you're headed, you don't necessarily even hit a light.

I pulled three million out of my ass. I figured that this was supposed to be a very very tall building, and one that looked a little more stout than the Chase Tower, so three million was a good solid placeholder.

Thats why alot of building have a parking garage a few levels below the ground, and some on the first (say) 7 stories or so. (i.e. Heritage Plaza, 2 Shell Plaza, Pheonix Tower, Houston Center, etc.).

On another note, the old enron twins & continental center (+cullen center) seem to have giant garages surrounding them, with skywalks to the buildings.

What is the deepest building or parking lot in Houston? I'd be interested in knowing. And what is the per-space cost of below-ground parking as you go further and further down?

You're right that the Allen Center buildings have massive parking garages. with skywalks/tunnels. But the Bank of the Southwest Building wouldn've have had adjacent land on which to build those kinds of supportive structures.

[Montrose1100]

What is the deepest building or parking lot in Houston? I'd be interested in knowing. And what is the per-space cost of below-ground parking as you go further and further down?

You're right that the Allen Center buildings have massive parking garages. with skywalks/tunnels. But the Bank of the Southwest Building wouldn've have had adjacent land on which to build those kinds of supportive structures.

My guess is that the deepest building would be either the JP Morgan Chase Tower or Wells Fargo Plaza. (As one cannot tell 'tone of voice' over the internet, I hoping that your not being sarcastic).

I am not sure what the per-space cost of below-ground parking is, let alone if you continue going down. My comment about underground parking was (obviously) my own ignorance. I use to work at Louisiana Place, and the parking underground was only about 2-3 levels (technically speaking). But perhaps only counted as "2", because the entrance went below once, and it curved a little bit lower which left the top parking level to be approx. 2 stories underground. The second level (and I believe the last) would be "3".

I googled a bit, because I was interested about the underground parking situation in Downtown. I know that the parking under Jones Hall goes down a ways.

"Design work for the project began April 1998, and excavation started in June of last year. With four levels of parking underground, the excavation was the second deepest for a building in Houston."

-MustangCat

Then to make matters worse, downtown employees plus patrons in the large modern theater district had parked vehicles in 3 to 4 levels of underground parking garages knowing torrential rainstorms were coming. These garages, mostly 35 to 40 feet deep, were completely filled to above street level with floodwater. Estimates were that the 10-15 underground garages each held 400 to 600 vehicles, this totaling between 4000 to 9000 more totaled vehicles.

-rimes 25

A guess is that the deepest is anywhere from 4-5 levels underground. My original statement was not to respond to the problem of "where to park" but simply little fun facts for everyone. It wasn't meant to be patronizing or or anything thing other then matter-of-fact. Based on the renderings and pictures I've seen of the proposal, no floors above or below ground would be used for parking. The building's design left it's plaza open to all street sides, so if any parking would have been underground, it would probibly look like 1 Shell Plaza's.

And typically, the underground parking is used for top executives.

[Montrose1100]

I also stumbled on some interesting things about the BotSWT.

Bank of the Southwest was supposedly seconds away from beginning work on the 1400 ft. tower in 1983-84 when they nearly failed under the weight of bad real estate/oil bust loans; MBank/MCorp of Dallas purchased B.O.S.W. and approached Gerald Hines and Trammell Crow about developing the 82-85 story tower but the market truly collapsed in 1986, MBank itself later collapsed and was adopted by Bank One, and to this day the site remains a void.

- JB Anderson (Design Community)

I recommend that anyone who views that discussion would click on the responces.

[TheNiche]

My guess is that the deepest building would be either the JP Morgan Chase Tower or Wells Fargo Plaza. (As one cannot tell 'tone of voice' over the internet, I hoping that your not being sarcastic).

No sarcasm. Genuine interest.

[Houston19514]

The Fannin/Knight Street split is where Fannin and Knight Street intersect...but the way they intersect is less like a T and more like a Y. Depending on the lanes that you're in and the direction you're headed, you don't necessarily even hit a light.

Are you referring to Fannin/San Jacinto? I cannot think of any Knight Street in downtown Houston, and I cannot find one on any maps either.

[TheNiche]

Are you referring to Fannin/San Jacinto? I cannot think of any Knight Street in downtown Houston, and I cannot find one on any maps either.

Further south. Between OST and the South Loop near the TMC and Astrodome.

[kennyc05]

mann this tower needs to be built

[texas911]

I have a book on the proposed building from the 80's. It would have been really nice to see that built. I loved the way it was lit up, very Miami Vice.

Edited October 9, 2006 by texas911

[plumber2]

No, thats a false Urban Lengend that is thought to be fact. The Texas Commerce Tower (Chase Tower, JP Morgan Chase Tower) was originally suppose to be 60 floors. Hence the Observation deck on the 60th floor. The inital design really went up, and down... Skyscrapers come in 1,000 ft packages, and they had planned for the Chase tower to be below it. But since the office demand was so high, they added a few floors for the final rendering... It could have been 80 floors, even a 100, the FAA has nothing to do with it. They were worried about the communications equipment coming out of Hobby, which slowly rises at a certain angle. But infact, the "beam" is really somewhat west of Downtown. The FAA thing was a rumor, it was never intential to be 80 floors, or as you say, 85... It was originally planned to be 60, but turned out to be 75.

As for the Location of the BoTSWT, it was to be built on the surface parking lot behind 1 Shell Plaza.

Here

Actually, thats not such an exact picture, but its the surface parking lot behind 1-Shell Plaza, Its surounded by Rusk, Milam, Louisiana, and Walker Street.

Heah Montrose1100, you forgot to include that Texas Comerce Tower was originally concieved and named El Paso Tower up until groundbreaking when El Paso backed out as the prime tenant.

[houstonmacbro]

Someone (on another board somewhere) wrote:

Posted by JB Anderson on September 19, 2001 at 18:53:41:

I just wanted to see if anyone else had ever seen the designs for the "Bank of the Southwest Tower", planned around 1982 for Houston. It would have been the 2nd tallest building in America after Sears and I have seen two designs, one by Kohn Pedersen Fox and the one by Helmut Jahn...

Bank of the Southwest was supposedly seconds away from beginning work on the 1400 ft. tower in 1983-84 when they nearly failed under the weight of bad real estate/oil bust loans; MBank/MCorp of Dallas purchased B.O.S.W. and approached Gerald Hines and Trammell Crow about developing the 82-85 story tower but the market truly collapsed in 1986, MBank itself later collapsed and was adopted by Bank One, and to this day the site remains a void.

I thought the KPF design was spectacular; the Jahn was too cheesy (although the Jahn won the 1982 competition)....this is one of those rare projects that really should have been built; I believe it would have been a landmark for the ages.

Anything would be an improvement on I.M Pei's "Texas Tombstone" (The Chase Tower)

Anyway, I would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this gorgeous unbuilt tower.

Here's are a few renderings of the unbuilt Bank of the Southwest Tower.

http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/6/2006/04/448911.jpg

http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/6/2002/12/173478.jpg

Now, fast forward to Dubai and take a look at a tower they're building. Looks a helluva lot similar to the Bank of the Southwest design no? I think they done stole our (unbuilt) building design!

http://www.talkhouston.net/forums/uploads/monthly_01_2007/post-27-1169934360.jpg

Dubai is the second-largest city in the United Arab Emirates (Abu Dhabi is the biggest) but it's the most development-crazy, with comparisons to Las Vegas and early 20th-century New York. Here are some of the most stunning projects underway in the Middle East's most curious catechism to capitalism.

For a gallery view of several new towers going up in Dubai.

[MexAmerican_Moose]

moo....it looks similar but the Bank of the Southwest Tower is already in Phily, its the short version though

[H-Town Man]

That's not the BOSW design in Philly, though it is similar and by the same architect.

Didn't know about the MBank thing... wouldn't it have been awful if it had been built in Dallas?

[houstonmacbro]

You have a picture of the Philly building you're talking about?

[Montrose1100]

You have a picture of the Philly building you're talking about?

Liberty Place 1... Look it up.

Anyways, the BofTSW design went into many other tower, including Park Place in New York City, Messeturm in Frankfurt, and Liberty Place 1 in Philadelphia.

[H-Town Man]

Question: and I admit I am very uneducated on this subject. Remember Block 265 where Southwest Tower was going, it was going to be 82 stories and right in the middle of everything ... could that ever be resurrected or is that like "gone with the wind"? Because that building was beautiful on the drawing board and couldn't be in a better area. Can someone enlighten poor ol' fella whether these things can come back to fruition or the sad truth is that they will never be built?

It's safe to say that old designs like that will never get built. The site that building was proposed for is the current site of the ChevronTexaco Heritage Plaza (or whatever they're calling it these days). When it was proposed, we were at the height of the oil boom and very brash about building skyscrapers; even then it was a bit too brash for us.

I'm not even sure we'd want a building like that: you'd have to make all of Sam Houston Park into a giant parking garage for all the cars, and it would be much better for a variety of reasons for the same number of office workers to be spread out in five smaller buildings in different parts of downtown. If we want downtown to be a neighborhood instead of just an office park, we need mid-size buildings, not just supertalls.

[dbigtex56]

Interesting info on this building here.

[UrbaNerd]

Personally, I have always preferred the Kohn Pedersen Fox proposal over the competition victor, designed by Jahn; it looks too similar to the Liberty Place towers in Philadelphia, also done by Jahn.

[dbigtex56]

The site that building was proposed for is the current site of the ChevronTexaco Heritage Plaza (or whatever they're calling it these days).

Different site.

The block in question is still a surface parking lot. It's bordered by Milam, Louisiana, Walker and McKinney.

I remember when the former Southwest Tower occupied the southeast corner of that block, and how shocked I was that a 21 story building, less than 20 years old, was so casually demolished.

The removal of that absurd bronze statue of the semi-nude woman (it looked like something from a Frankie Avalon movie) which stood in front of that building somehow made it all worthwhile.

(She was seriously cheesy; the gal had a pony tail and a two-piece swimsuit. She currently lurks somewhere over by the police station, I think.)

[what]

It's safe to say that old designs like that will never get built. The site that building was proposed for is the current site of the ChevronTexaco Heritage Plaza (or whatever they're calling it these days). When it was proposed, we were at the height of the oil boom and very brash about building skyscrapers; even then it was a bit too brash for us.

I'm not even sure we'd want a building like that: you'd have to make all of Sam Houston Park into a giant parking garage for all the cars, and it would be much better for a variety of reasons for the same number of office workers to be spread out in five smaller buildings in different parts of downtown. If we want downtown to be a neighborhood instead of just an office park, we need mid-size buildings, not just supertalls.

Who wants to re-categorize Downtown (Central Business District/CBD) to being at the same level as a neighborhood anyway ? Midtown is downtown's neighborhood anyway. I think you could build the parking within the building like they are doing at Calpine.

[SpaceCity]

It's a pipe dream, but that would be an awesome building to add to downtown's skyline.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Personally, I have always preferred the Kohn Pedersen Fox proposal over the competition victor, designed by Jahn; it looks too similar to the Liberty Place towers in Philadelphia, also done by Jahn.

Yes, but BOTSW would've predated the Philly Towers.

[shinoda28107]

This building would have been beautiful to look at.

But this discussion brings another question to mind: what would have Houston been like if it wasn't for the bust in the 80's....the downtown/uptown skylines, the population, the demographics....global status and perception.

But i don't want to deviate from the original topic. The BOTSW will never be built in houston. the chance of a building that tall being constructed in houston anytime soon is very slim.

[desirous]

moo, supertalls rarely do much practical good at the street level anyhow. For some reason, many architects have something up their rears dictating that streetscapes should be barren. How many buildings are surrounded by deserted, landscaped pseudo-parks/squares that add nothing to the urban fabric? I recently visited China, and was appalled at how their modern construction replaced lively street-walls with desolate plazas. What is this all about? Is it a classic case of completely arbitrary artistic principles standing in the way of, well, everything else?

[Subdude]

Meh, supertalls rarely do much practical good at the street level anyhow. For some reason, many architects have something up their rears dictating that streetscapes should be barren. How many buildings are surrounded by deserted, landscaped pseudo-parks/squares that add nothing to the urban fabric? I recently visited China, and was appalled at how their modern construction replaced lively street-walls with desolate plazas. What is this all about? Is it a classic case of completely arbitrary artistic principles standing in the way of, well, everything else?

It's not always the case - look at New York. But in general I think you are right that supertall buildings don't breed an interesting streetscape. I wouldn't necessarily say it is the fault of architects as much as an issue of scale. More lively streetscapes seem to work better with shorter structures. For trying to encourage a streetscape, nothing is deadlier than those "deserted, landscaped pseudo-parks/squares." The single worst example in Houston is 1100 Louisiana, the drab plaza with the Dubuffet sculpture. Urban planning at its rock-bottom worst.

[TheNiche]

moo, supertalls rarely do much practical good at the street level anyhow. For some reason, many architects have something up their rears dictating that streetscapes should be barren. How many buildings are surrounded by deserted, landscaped pseudo-parks/squares that add nothing to the urban fabric? I recently visited China, and was appalled at how their modern construction replaced lively street-walls with desolate plazas. What is this all about? Is it a classic case of completely arbitrary artistic principles standing in the way of, well, everything else?

Funny, I could've said the same thing about architects that have something up their rears about every streetscape needing to be made 'to a human scale'. A supertall can put a signature on a skyline that is more aesthetically-compelling to more people than any one street intersection could ever aspire to be.

[dbigtex56]

Funny, I could've said the same thing about architects that have something up their rears about every streetscape needing to be made 'to a human scale'. A supertall can put a signature on a skyline that is more aesthetically-compelling to more people than any one street intersection could ever aspire to be.

Good design at the top is no excuse for bad design at street level. Why would anyone defend barren, alienating streetscapes?

[TheNiche]

Good design at the top is no excuse for bad design at street level. Why would anyone defend barren, alienating streetscapes?

It would seem that your opinion and mine of bad design differ. Oh well. No surprise there.

[dbigtex56]

It would seem that your opinion and mine of bad design differ. Oh well. No surprise there.

Appreciate the compliment.