Occupy Wall Street?

[RedScare]

GE paid no corporate tax last year. the 9-9-9 plan would actually increase GE's tax liability. There will be no 26% reduction in the price of GE products. In fact, using your utterly rediculous assumption that companies would reduce prices due to tax savings (they won't, they'll keep the savings), prices on GE products would INCREASE 9%. So would prices on many other products where the corporations pay vurtually nothing due to tax breaks.

Furthermore, the article points out that Cain's plan intends to tax food and medicine, as well. Now, the cost to eat and get sick just jumped 9% overnight, while poor and middle class salaries drop 1%. So, the number of people on Food stamps and Medicaid jumps, but Cain's plan brings in 17% less revenue, so I suppose we'll just have an even hungrier and sicker nation.

[samagon]

Trivial? Really? A 109% increase in city sales tax rates (144% in suburban areas) is trivial in your world? Cain's plan would increase the tax burden on those households earning between $10,000 and $20,000 by 950%! And you think that is a trivial number that wouldn't be noticed? The Tax Policy Center estimates that Cain's tax plan would INCREASE taxes on 84% of US households, though it would create huge tax breaks for the rich...that same group that already writes the rules for the rest of us.

Now, let's talk about those illegals again. You seem to be suggesting that only illegals do not pay, and are therefore a burden. But, the arguments you present apply to all of the poor, all of those who cannot afford health insurance, and all of those who are not wealthy enough to own a house. I suspect you are really upset at the poors, because the poors aren't carrying their weight. Given that you also support repealing minimum wage laws, I don't know where the poors are going to find that extra money to rise to your standards of an acceptable resident. But, since 41% of illegals have insurance, can they stay? Because they are paying their way.

http://www.msnbc.msn...-decision_2012/

are the numbers you're going with considering that there are nontaxable items? Food for instance?

Furthermore, the article points out that Cain's plan intends to tax food and medicine, as well. Now, the cost to eat and get sick just jumped 9% overnight, while poor and middle class salaries drop 1%. So, the number of people on Food stamps and Medicaid jumps, but Cain's plan brings in 17% less revenue, so I suppose we'll just have an even hungrier and sicker nation.

that's interesting, cause what I've read said that there were nontaxable items..

I'll look for it and post.

[RedScare]

Sam, the article specifically mentioned that Cain's plan...unlike most plans...does not exempt food and medicine. However, it only taxes goods once. Used goods would be tax free, so as long as you buy from Craiglist and dumpster dive, you'd be saving money.

Here is the Tax Policy Center Report...

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/Cain-9-9-9-plan.cfm

[Ross]

Why will the price of goods decrease? Cain wants his 9% sales tax applied to each level of production, so that all snowballs into the consumer.

The 9% would be applied to the incremental value added, hence Bachmann's claim that it's really a VAT. I don't have any particular problems with VAT, but they need to be correctly implemented, or the compliance costs are awful.

[Utinga]

Really? That's the only thing you got out of this post? You're not in the least bit offended by the fact that the Government was equal in stature as a terrorist

My appolligies, would you rather I write how people in general are greedy, self-centered and no amount of our writings here will change that fact. I could blather on for paragraphs full of verbal masturbation on this post and we will both wake tomorrow to the sameness of it all

Now, should I not be the lazy white trash dude that I am, I'd be doing something besides wringing my hands here or holding a sign there. They are young and full of grandiose ideas, let them protest.

[Utinga]

[KinkaidAlum]

If anyone is interested in the 'movement,' google Kalle Lasn and culturejamming and start reading AdBusters. These are the same people behind Buy Nothing Day. Without belaboring the point, I support OWS, but do believe that short of near-societal collapse, people in wealthy Western companies will just continue to happily eat all the crap that's fed to them, figuratively, politically, literally.

Am I the only one who caught what you did here?

Spot on by the way. Every day we become less of a nation and more of a market.

[KinkaidAlum]

Everyone here misunderstands effective protest. Once OWS has a 'strategy' it then will, sooner than later, get co-opted (for reference, note the dominionists' takeover of the Tea Party and its resulting drop in popularity). Keep it loose, keep it 10,000 feet up, and keep attracting people.

Since I'm the only one here, apparently, who has actually followed the rhetoric behind this movement's leadership for quite a while, let me spell it out for those of you who wrongly persist in believing it's hippies, hipsters or dem operatives: Get the money out of politics. OWS is not anti-capitalist, it's anti-corporatist, and if you don't understand the difference, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.

IMO the singular demand of OWS should be total campaign reform at the constitutional level.

You need to post more. I had almost forgotten that I had a crush on you.

[TheNiche]

Am I the only one who caught what you did here?

Spot on by the way. Every day we become less of a nation and more of a market.

No, we were never anything more than a market. It's just that every day, more people awaken to a truth to which they are unaccustomed. That, whiskey, and the internet allow cathartic release unlike our civilization has ever experienced...in the sense that we all get to foot around our problems with rhetoric (and do nothing) rather than resolve them with violence. I'm not sure which is the better existence. And I don't care.

[Niche inexplicably flips the bird to everyone. He thinks its funny even though you don't, and he doesn't care about that either.]

[Marksmu]

Sam, the article specifically mentioned that Cain's plan...unlike most plans...does not exempt food and medicine. However, it only taxes goods once. Used goods would be tax free, so as long as you buy from Craiglist and dumpster dive, you'd be saving money.

Here is the Tax Policy Center Report...

http://www.taxpolicy...-9-9-9-plan.cfm

I was on a tractor for 9 hours yesterday and I listened to an interview with Cain about his 9-9-9 plan....it was about 15 minutes long. He explained that all raw materials would be tax free until the final point of sale just as they are now, thus there would not be an extra 9, 18, 27 or 36% increase built into the price of goods. He used a loaf of bread in his explanation that right now a loaf is taxed 5 times - the farmer, the miller, the baker, the trucker, and the retailer. In his plan only the retailer pays a tax. He also explained that people below a certain income level would carry a card of some kind, and he was not sure how he would do that yet, or what the income breaks would be, but that card, much like a welfare card would exempt people below certain income levels from paying tax on food and other essential goods. Only US citizens with proof of citizenship would qualify for that card. He also stated he would establish certain tax free zones to encourage growth in certain areas, but that was not worked out all the way yet either.

He went on to state that he would tax raw materials that originated from other countries, thus creating an incentive for US companies to buy goods manufactured in the US. If other countries wanted their goods to be exempt from our 9% tax they would have to meet the US minimum wage laws.

He expects that companies should see a reduction in taxes of between 18 and 27%. Whether or not that gets passed onto the consumer as it should is debatable. Part of me says it would, but the cynic in me says that many companies would pocket the majority of the savings and reduce the price of the goods by 9% because most Americans are too stupid to realize that the company saved much more than just 9%. (my opinion, not his)

The taxpolicy report is not able to make a realistic estimation of what the real impact would be because there are still too many details that have not been finalized, but there were 2 or 3 assumptions in the report that he dispelled in yesterdays interview.

[jgriff]

I'm usually pretty conservative at least on fiscal issues. Socially I'm super-liberal although I do believe in obeying the law even if I don't believe the law is correct. The people I've seen at OWS on TV are not the kind I usually agree with. Of course we all know how reliable the CNN, MSNBC and FOX entertainment networks are.

I find myself at least in part agreeing with the frustrations of OWS if not the tactics and solutions some of them are offering. The corporations are doing what they have to do to survive in the world we live in. They have to compete with the Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, etc... When my company laid me off 2 years ago even as they were hiring more people in Mumbai I wasn't surprised. What would I expect them to do? Keep paying me or hire someone else who may be 1/2 as talented but will work with no benefits for $10 a day? One of my bosses once told me that I may be irreplaceable but he could replace me with two people.

The unemployment problem is not a U.S. Government problem, it's not a Corporate America problem. It's an India and China suck as a place to live because they are primitive cultures problem. Take that culture relativism. The world we live in is a brutal and disgusting place. I was in Naples Italy last week and saw shanty towns in the middle of dumps with children playing in the garbage just a few minutes from Pompeii. I wondered if those kids were better off then the ones that lived there 2000 years ago. I'm sure they'd love to come live in Zuccotti park.

What's the solution? I don't know. Punishing Corporate America won't help. Higher taxes won't help. Taking money from rich people won't help. If I see even the slightest indication that my savings are going to be confiscated or taxed it will be turned into gold the next day. I started doing that in 2008 so I already have the mechanism in place. When gold went over $1k an ounce I stopped but I'm ready to start right back up if I need to. I have no problem taking it to the Middle East. I may not be able to get it all out of the country all at once but I'd get it eventually. I've got lots of friends over there and the food is good.

[samagon]

He went on to state that he would tax raw materials that originated from other countries, thus creating an incentive for US companies to buy goods manufactured in the US. If other countries wanted their goods to be exempt from our 9% tax they would have to meet the US minimum wage laws.

This needs to go farther.

Any law that a company, or facility would have to comply with in the USA, if they want to sell goods here, should be held to those same standards.

Environmental, safety, labor, etc.

Of course, this will mean our ipods, tvs, computers, etc are going to cost at least 3x as much as they currently do.

[jgriff]

Of course, this will mean our ipods, tvs, computers, etc are going to cost at least 3x as much as they currently do.

Sounds good to me.

[kylejack]

I don't think we should be enforcing a global minimum wage the same as our own. We absolutely should require the same safety standards, but a dollar goes a hell of a lot farther in, for example, India. You can give someone a decent standard of living for less than the American minimum wage.

[jgriff]

I don't think we should be enforcing a global minimum wage the same as our own. We absolutely should require the same safety standards, but a dollar goes a hell of a lot farther in, for example, India. You can give someone a decent standard of living for less than the American minimum wage.

True, in my business we could probably still compete with India if their wages were half ours. The problem is that it's more like 1/10th at the moment. It's coming up though. I visit subcontractors all over the world and I've found that as the wages increase in one country that country just starts off shoring to another. For example we found a subcontractor in Mumbai that was off shoring the work we off shored to them to Vietnam. Same thing in Korea, they use The Philippines. I'm actually in the middle of letting our client know right now where their work is really being done and implementing much harsher audit trails. If they're going to take our work I'm going to make sure they do it to our standards.

[kylejack]

When I was doing call center work for SBC (via Convergys), we were replaced by an Indian call center where the people were making 2 dollars an hour. India requires healthcare plans, and 2 dollars was actually plenty for a modest lifestyle. I think globalism can help us and help people in developing nations. I think the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can figure out what types of jobs can be quintessentially American.

[jgriff]

I think globalism can help us and help people in developing nations. I think the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can figure out what types of jobs can be quintessentially American.

You're right. Those jobs aren't coming back. We have to live in the world we have, not what we think it should be.

Or we could just send the military into every country we haven't already invaded and make them live just like us.

[samagon]

I don't think we should be enforcing a global minimum wage the same as our own. We absolutely should require the same safety standards, but a dollar goes a hell of a lot farther in, for example, India. You can give someone a decent standard of living for less than the American minimum wage.

agree 100%, but I'd love to see... if you're going to bring goods into our country, you better have not polluted, or endangered your workers, if you did, here's a nice tax that makes your product cost more than it would if you were to do it all in the USA.

[jgriff]

agree 100%, but I'd love to see... if you're going to bring goods into our country, you better have not polluted, or endangered your workers, if you did, here's a nice tax that makes your product cost more than it would if you were to do it all in the USA.

I think a lot of people agree in principle but it's much harder to enact in reality. First you've got to convince the poor in the U.S. to accept a much lower standard of living for a long time. The trade war with China would probably bring down our government and theirs. If the world economy doesn't improve that may be what happens anyway. At this point I'm thinking the end of the U.S. might not be the worst thing that could happen.

[plumber2]

I'm usually pretty conservative at least on fiscal issues. Socially I'm super-liberal although I do believe in obeying the law even if I don't believe the law is correct. The people I've seen at OWS on TV are not the kind I usually agree with. Of course we all know how reliable the CNN, MSNBC and FOX entertainment networks are.

I find myself at least in part agreeing with the frustrations of OWS if not the tactics and solutions some of them are offering. The corporations are doing what they have to do to survive in the world we live in. They have to compete with the Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, etc... When my company laid me off 2 years ago even as they were hiring more people in Mumbai I wasn't surprised. What would I expect them to do? Keep paying me or hire someone else who may be 1/2 as talented but will work with no benefits for $10 a day? One of my bosses once told me that I may be irreplaceable but he could replace me with two people.

The unemployment problem is not a U.S. Government problem, it's not a Corporate America problem. It's an India and China suck as a place to live because they are primitive cultures problem. Take that culture relativism. The world we live in is a brutal and disgusting place. I was in Naples Italy last week and saw shanty towns in the middle of dumps with children playing in the garbage just a few minutes from Pompeii. I wondered if those kids were better off then the ones that lived there 2000 years ago. I'm sure they'd love to come live in Zuccotti park.

What's the solution? I don't know. Punishing Corporate America won't help. Higher taxes won't help. Taking money from rich people won't help. If I see even the slightest indication that my savings are going to be confiscated or taxed it will be turned into gold the next day. I started doing that in 2008 so I already have the mechanism in place. When gold went over $1k an ounce I stopped but I'm ready to start right back up if I need to. I have no problem taking it to the Middle East. I may not be able to get it all out of the country all at once but I'd get it eventually. I've got lots of friends over there and the food is good.

Who's stopping you from leaving now?

[trymahjong]

I got to go and see all the hubbub. . . . . . a bit of interesting info. . . . . . . microphones and megaphones were prohibited by city-- info/speeches/rants from anyone speaking is heard by those immediately surrounding them and then passed along person to person to the outside parts of the crowd-- much like the kids game of "telephone"

[ricco67]

I got to go and see all the hubbub. . . . . . a bit of interesting info. . . . . . . microphones and megaphones were prohibited by city-- info/speeches/rants from anyone speaking is heard by those immediately surrounding them and then passed along person to person to the outside parts of the crowd-- much like the kids game of "telephone"

Then someone should tell these guys:

I see them using a megaphone from time to time. And they are in downtown almost every weekend from what i've seen.

[samagon]

that guy is flipping you off!

[ricco67]

that guy is flipping you off!

yeah, they weren't thrilled with my taking their picture for some reason.

[kylejack]

Then someone should tell these guys:

I see them using a megaphone from time to time. And they are in downtown almost every weekend from what i've seen.

I believe mahjong was referring to Occupy Wall Street in New York City. I'm not sure what the voice amplification rules are in Houston, or if those guys request a permit each weekend. I see them too.

[Ross]

Who are those guys, what are they protesting (something about slavery, it appears), and where are they?

[ricco67]

I'm not entirely sure WHAT they are protesting.

They're usually on the corner of Main and Dallas or on Travis at McKinney.

They seem to take videotaping themselves seriously, though.

Gotta hand it to them, they got dedication, but they need to find another hobby.

[kylejack]

Who are those guys, what are they protesting (something about slavery, it appears), and where are they?

They're more preaching than protesting. They're a member of some Black Jewish sect of some sort.

[LTAWACS]

When I was doing call center work for SBC (via Convergys), we were replaced by an Indian call center where the people were making 2 dollars an hour. India requires healthcare plans, and 2 dollars was actually plenty for a modest lifestyle. I think globalism can help us and help people in developing nations. I think the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can figure out what types of jobs can be quintessentially American.

lol...

there is no such thing as "quintessentially American" jobs... other than american politics... and even these are being infiltrated by the chinese.

also... the chinese are now setting up "innovation labs" so that they dont have to rely on the US any more.

so US companies share their technology with the chinese... who then steal/copy it...

This is a very subtle kind of economic warfare.

[LTAWACS]

I also forgot to mention that anyone with the right skills will do the job for the right pay in any part of the world. Anything that the US worker can do someone else can/will do for less. They just need the right training. As long as some currencies are worth more than others.. (I forget the technical term... maybe PPP) and as long as there are different standards of living... this will be true.