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samagon

Occupy Wall Street?

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I'm usually pretty conservative at least on fiscal issues. Socially I'm super-liberal although I do believe in obeying the law even if I don't believe the law is correct. The people I've seen at OWS on TV are not the kind I usually agree with. Of course we all know how reliable the CNN, MSNBC and FOX entertainment networks are.

I find myself at least in part agreeing with the frustrations of OWS if not the tactics and solutions some of them are offering. The corporations are doing what they have to do to survive in the world we live in. They have to compete with the Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, etc... When my company laid me off 2 years ago even as they were hiring more people in Mumbai I wasn't surprised. What would I expect them to do? Keep paying me or hire someone else who may be 1/2 as talented but will work with no benefits for $10 a day? One of my bosses once told me that I may be irreplaceable but he could replace me with two people.

The unemployment problem is not a U.S. Government problem, it's not a Corporate America problem. It's an India and China suck as a place to live because they are primitive cultures problem. Take that culture relativism. The world we live in is a brutal and disgusting place. I was in Naples Italy last week and saw shanty towns in the middle of dumps with children playing in the garbage just a few minutes from Pompeii. I wondered if those kids were better off then the ones that lived there 2000 years ago. I'm sure they'd love to come live in Zuccotti park.

What's the solution? I don't know. Punishing Corporate America won't help. Higher taxes won't help. Taking money from rich people won't help. If I see even the slightest indication that my savings are going to be confiscated or taxed it will be turned into gold the next day. I started doing that in 2008 so I already have the mechanism in place. When gold went over $1k an ounce I stopped but I'm ready to start right back up if I need to. I have no problem taking it to the Middle East. I may not be able to get it all out of the country all at once but I'd get it eventually. I've got lots of friends over there and the food is good.

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He went on to state that he would tax raw materials that originated from other countries, thus creating an incentive for US companies to buy goods manufactured in the US. If other countries wanted their goods to be exempt from our 9% tax they would have to meet the US minimum wage laws.

This needs to go farther.

Any law that a company, or facility would have to comply with in the USA, if they want to sell goods here, should be held to those same standards.

Environmental, safety, labor, etc.

Of course, this will mean our ipods, tvs, computers, etc are going to cost at least 3x as much as they currently do.

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Of course, this will mean our ipods, tvs, computers, etc are going to cost at least 3x as much as they currently do.

Sounds good to me.

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I don't think we should be enforcing a global minimum wage the same as our own. We absolutely should require the same safety standards, but a dollar goes a hell of a lot farther in, for example, India. You can give someone a decent standard of living for less than the American minimum wage.

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I don't think we should be enforcing a global minimum wage the same as our own. We absolutely should require the same safety standards, but a dollar goes a hell of a lot farther in, for example, India. You can give someone a decent standard of living for less than the American minimum wage.

True, in my business we could probably still compete with India if their wages were half ours. The problem is that it's more like 1/10th at the moment. It's coming up though. I visit subcontractors all over the world and I've found that as the wages increase in one country that country just starts off shoring to another. For example we found a subcontractor in Mumbai that was off shoring the work we off shored to them to Vietnam. Same thing in Korea, they use The Philippines. I'm actually in the middle of letting our client know right now where their work is really being done and implementing much harsher audit trails. If they're going to take our work I'm going to make sure they do it to our standards.

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When I was doing call center work for SBC (via Convergys), we were replaced by an Indian call center where the people were making 2 dollars an hour. India requires healthcare plans, and 2 dollars was actually plenty for a modest lifestyle. I think globalism can help us and help people in developing nations. I think the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can figure out what types of jobs can be quintessentially American.

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I think globalism can help us and help people in developing nations. I think the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can figure out what types of jobs can be quintessentially American.

You're right. Those jobs aren't coming back. We have to live in the world we have, not what we think it should be.

Or we could just send the military into every country we haven't already invaded and make them live just like us.

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I don't think we should be enforcing a global minimum wage the same as our own. We absolutely should require the same safety standards, but a dollar goes a hell of a lot farther in, for example, India. You can give someone a decent standard of living for less than the American minimum wage.

agree 100%, but I'd love to see... if you're going to bring goods into our country, you better have not polluted, or endangered your workers, if you did, here's a nice tax that makes your product cost more than it would if you were to do it all in the USA.

Edited by samagon

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agree 100%, but I'd love to see... if you're going to bring goods into our country, you better have not polluted, or endangered your workers, if you did, here's a nice tax that makes your product cost more than it would if you were to do it all in the USA.

I think a lot of people agree in principle but it's much harder to enact in reality. First you've got to convince the poor in the U.S. to accept a much lower standard of living for a long time. The trade war with China would probably bring down our government and theirs. If the world economy doesn't improve that may be what happens anyway. At this point I'm thinking the end of the U.S. might not be the worst thing that could happen.

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I'm usually pretty conservative at least on fiscal issues. Socially I'm super-liberal although I do believe in obeying the law even if I don't believe the law is correct. The people I've seen at OWS on TV are not the kind I usually agree with. Of course we all know how reliable the CNN, MSNBC and FOX entertainment networks are.

I find myself at least in part agreeing with the frustrations of OWS if not the tactics and solutions some of them are offering. The corporations are doing what they have to do to survive in the world we live in. They have to compete with the Chinese, Indians, Koreans, Japanese, etc... When my company laid me off 2 years ago even as they were hiring more people in Mumbai I wasn't surprised. What would I expect them to do? Keep paying me or hire someone else who may be 1/2 as talented but will work with no benefits for $10 a day? One of my bosses once told me that I may be irreplaceable but he could replace me with two people.

The unemployment problem is not a U.S. Government problem, it's not a Corporate America problem. It's an India and China suck as a place to live because they are primitive cultures problem. Take that culture relativism. The world we live in is a brutal and disgusting place. I was in Naples Italy last week and saw shanty towns in the middle of dumps with children playing in the garbage just a few minutes from Pompeii. I wondered if those kids were better off then the ones that lived there 2000 years ago. I'm sure they'd love to come live in Zuccotti park.

What's the solution? I don't know. Punishing Corporate America won't help. Higher taxes won't help. Taking money from rich people won't help. If I see even the slightest indication that my savings are going to be confiscated or taxed it will be turned into gold the next day. I started doing that in 2008 so I already have the mechanism in place. When gold went over $1k an ounce I stopped but I'm ready to start right back up if I need to. I have no problem taking it to the Middle East. I may not be able to get it all out of the country all at once but I'd get it eventually. I've got lots of friends over there and the food is good.

Who's stopping you from leaving now?

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I got to go and see all the hubbub. . . . . . a bit of interesting info. . . . . . . microphones and megaphones were prohibited by city-- info/speeches/rants from anyone speaking is heard by those immediately surrounding them and then passed along person to person to the outside parts of the crowd-- much like the kids game of "telephone"

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I got to go and see all the hubbub. . . . . . a bit of interesting info. . . . . . . microphones and megaphones were prohibited by city-- info/speeches/rants from anyone speaking is heard by those immediately surrounding them and then passed along person to person to the outside parts of the crowd-- much like the kids game of "telephone"

Then someone should tell these guys:

DSC03691.JPG

I see them using a megaphone from time to time. And they are in downtown almost every weekend from what i've seen.

Edited by ricco67

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that guy is flipping you off!

yeah, they weren't thrilled with my taking their picture for some reason.

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Then someone should tell these guys:

DSC03691.JPG

I see them using a megaphone from time to time. And they are in downtown almost every weekend from what i've seen.

I believe mahjong was referring to Occupy Wall Street in New York City. I'm not sure what the voice amplification rules are in Houston, or if those guys request a permit each weekend. I see them too.

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Who are those guys, what are they protesting (something about slavery, it appears), and where are they?

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I'm not entirely sure WHAT they are protesting.

They're usually on the corner of Main and Dallas or on Travis at McKinney.

They seem to take videotaping themselves seriously, though.

Gotta hand it to them, they got dedication, but they need to find another hobby.

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Who are those guys, what are they protesting (something about slavery, it appears), and where are they?

They're more preaching than protesting. They're a member of some Black Jewish sect of some sort.

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When I was doing call center work for SBC (via Convergys), we were replaced by an Indian call center where the people were making 2 dollars an hour. India requires healthcare plans, and 2 dollars was actually plenty for a modest lifestyle. I think globalism can help us and help people in developing nations. I think the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can figure out what types of jobs can be quintessentially American.

lol...

there is no such thing as "quintessentially American" jobs... other than american politics... and even these are being infiltrated by the chinese.

also... the chinese are now setting up "innovation labs" so that they dont have to rely on the US any more.

so US companies share their technology with the chinese... who then steal/copy it...

This is a very subtle kind of economic warfare.

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I also forgot to mention that anyone with the right skills will do the job for the right pay in any part of the world. Anything that the US worker can do someone else can/will do for less. They just need the right training. As long as some currencies are worth more than others.. (I forget the technical term... maybe PPP) and as long as there are different standards of living... this will be true.

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Some peaceful occupy protesters.....nothing to see here - move along. Lets see how much press it gets on the MSM....I am betting it gets none. Its not on any of the major news outlets at this time....

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The man that is in a coma is an Iraq war vet. This guy probably had to show more restraint than OPD while controlling crowds in Iraq and he has to come home to this?

Edited by west20th

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The man that is in a coma is also an Iraq war vet. This guy probably had to show more restraint than OPD controlling crowds in Iraq and he has to come home to this?

According to the news the police did not take action until after they ordered the crowd dispersed and were then hit by the "peaceful" protesters throwing bottles and other garbage at them. It was at that point that they used tear gas, flash grenades, and non-lethal ammunition.

I thank him for his service in the military - but simply being post military does not give a person the right to break the law upon return.

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Actually, the police have told a series of lies. They claimed not to have used rubber bullets or flashbangs, yet those items were found, and there's footage of an officer throwing a flashbang.

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Actually, the police have told a series of lies. They claimed not to have used rubber bullets or flashbangs, yet those items were found, and there's footage of an officer throwing a flashbang.

You think they just attacked without provocation? They may have over-escalated because that is what police do when their adrenaline starts pumping and their authority is challenged, but they were provoked by something that warranted the tear gas first. The police know darn well that the media is watching their every move...some "peaceful" indigent protester did something that got the rest of those cops all worked up, but you dont see that on the video.

When your out numbered like the police are they are not going to sit around waiting till it gets really bad and their life is in danger to do something...they tried to nip it in the bud with a display of force - this guy got in the way. Sucks the guy got hit - but again he was in the process of breaking the law. He may not have deserved to get put in a coma, but he has nobody to blame but himself. He put himself in a position that was predictable. That is just plain stupid.

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You think they just attacked without provocation? They may have over-escalated because that is what police do when their adrenaline starts pumping and their authority is challenged, but they were provoked by something that warranted the tear gas first. The police know darn well that the media is watching their every move...some "peaceful" indigent protester did something that got the rest of those cops all worked up, but you dont see that on the video.

The police in this city are known for killing compliant people like Oscar Grant, so yes, I don't put it past them.

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The police in this city are known for killing compliant people like Oscar Grant, so yes, I don't put it past them.

You cant generalize all police over the actions of one, any more than you can say all muslims are terrorists because most terrorists are muslim.

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According to the news the police did not take action until after they ordered the crowd dispersed and were then hit by the "peaceful" protesters throwing bottles and other garbage at them. It was at that point that they used tear gas, flash grenades, and non-lethal ammunition.

I thank him for his service in the military - but simply being post military does not give a person the right to break the law upon return.

right, it was my understanding that after they were dispersed from the location, they tried to take it back. when they weren't allowed to, they started throwing things. the police responded to the riot situation with riot tactics.

yes, it's very unfortunate that someone was injured, but it's a risk you take when entering into that kind of situation.

I really do hope that he is offered the same treatment as Giffords was though, would be a tragedy if he was treated differently, at the end of the day, they are both human beings, and both fighting for what they believed was right.

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Several tea party organizers are demanding that the Occupy _____ pay the same fees, contract for the security and sign the same agreements that they were required to in order to protest. The cities thus far have not required anything of the occupy protesters....seems dirty to me. Rules must apply to everyone equally regardless of political beliefs. If these protesters refuse to pay the fees to protest they should be dispersed. If they do not disperse they should be arrested.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2011/10/27/tea-party-to-mayor-make-occupy-richmond-pay-up/

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You cant generalize all police over the actions of one, any more than you can say all muslims are terrorists because most terrorists are muslim.

You generalized the actions of the police AND the protesters. Why is no one else allowed to generalize but you?

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I saw two OWS guys holding up their Occupy Houston signs over I-10 (Houston or Taylor) during evening rush hour yesterday.

Did they not think of the irony when they decided the best time and place to convey their message would be to tens of thousands of Houstonians coming home from work ?

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I'm still in NYC-- big news here when NYFD removed generators------and so what should happen today? yep-- snow started around 10am

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I saw two OWS guys holding up their Occupy Houston signs over I-10 (Houston or Taylor) during evening rush hour yesterday.

Did they not think of the irony when they decided the best time and place to convey their message would be to tens of thousands of Houstonians coming home from work ?

Perhaps they think their message of accountability for banks that gambled their own fortunes and then turned to the public for replenishment appeals to some people who have jobs as well? I have a job and it appeals to me. No, I don't think it's ironic.

Edited by kylejack
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Is there a list of demands, or just a bunch of bohemian whiners with nothing else to do? Get to the damn point and stop being juvenile.

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Is there a list of demands, or just a bunch of bohemian whiners with nothing else to do? Get to the damn point and stop being juvenile.

Most of what I've seen seems to be from 20 somethings who borrowed large sums of money to get a degree that's not worth much, so they want jobs and forgiveness of their debt. There's no way I would hire someone stupid enough to pile up $100k+ of debt to get a bachelor of fine arts, or a marketing degree, or a management degree, or a sociology degree. These folks are too proud to work physical labor type jobs, or fast food jobs - they want it all and they want it now. These are the people I see from time to time as new hires whose first question is "when do I get to be a manager".

Essentially, the demands are "give us whatever we want, right now".

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Society tells people to earn a degree vs. getting into a trade, and many K-12 schools emphasize university stuff over things to get skilled trade degrees. Increasingly skilled trade arts are being left up to community colleges

Most of what I've seen seems to be from 20 somethings who borrowed large sums of money to get a degree that's not worth much, so they want jobs and forgiveness of their debt. There's no way I would hire someone stupid enough to pile up $100k+ of debt to get a bachelor of fine arts, or a marketing degree, or a management degree, or a sociology degree. These folks are too proud to work physical labor type jobs, or fast food jobs - they want it all and they want it now. These are the people I see from time to time as new hires whose first question is "when do I get to be a manager".

Essentially, the demands are "give us whatever we want, right now".

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Most of what I've seen seems to be from 20 somethings who borrowed large sums of money to get a degree that's not worth much, so they want jobs and forgiveness of their debt. There's no way I would hire someone stupid enough to pile up $100k+ of debt to get a bachelor of fine arts, or a marketing degree, or a management degree, or a sociology degree. These folks are too proud to work physical labor type jobs, or fast food jobs - they want it all and they want it now. These are the people I see from time to time as new hires whose first question is "when do I get to be a manager".

Essentially, the demands are "give us whatever we want, right now".

On the one hand, I agree that the people that are whining in this instance are being well-characterized by you. (The ones with time on their hands are ****ing themselves further by allocating their time to a lost cause rather than to any attempt at being productive.)

On the other hand, I have multiple quantitatively-oriented business degrees, yet get paid a salary that is equivalent to less than the minimum wage in terms of hours worked because I paid for those degrees, free and clear, by working full-time and gaining a lot of experience in real estate development, and that experience turned out to be completely worthless at just the moment in my career that I should've started doing very well for myself.

At this point, I'd have done twice as well for myself with an associates degree in welding.

I am pissed off. But more than anything, I'm pissed that the people irresponsible enough to get bogged down in student debt get freebies and I don't. I should have understood that the system favors traditional students; I should have acted very irresponsibly as was expected of me. I did not, and therefore I have been punished. The lesson is learned; and I think that that is sad.

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Most of what I've seen seems to be from 20 somethings who borrowed large sums of money to get a degree that's not worth much, so they want jobs and forgiveness of their debt. There's no way I would hire someone stupid enough to pile up $100k+ of debt to get a bachelor of fine arts, or a marketing degree, or a management degree, or a sociology degree. These folks are too proud to work physical labor type jobs, or fast food jobs - they want it all and they want it now. These are the people I see from time to time as new hires whose first question is "when do I get to be a manager".

Essentially, the demands are "give us whatever we want, right now".

I've been saying this all along - but the media and democrats wants to make this into something more grand - a real moral stand against corporations and banks....its all a front for a bunch of whiney babies who were not handed what their mom and dads told them would be handed to them when they graduated from college.

Its pathetic - they are not willing to do anything other than exactly what they want at exactly their dream pay....what use do they really think that BA degree is? Its acceptable for teaching, or possibly as an easy grade to get into a Law school, thats it...There are lots of manufacturing jobs all over the US but they are not willing to actually work with their hands and punch a clock - even though most of the jobs pay more and work less than an entry level paper pusher.

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I think a key issue is lack of flexibility in thinking. It seems like a lot of the whiny folks are stuck on the idea that if they have a degree in X, they are entitled to a well paying job doing X, and won't consider a decent job doing Y, where their degree doesn't seem relevant, but the ability to think is. No one seems to think these days. Maybe not no one, but most. This is probably related to the ever increasing trend towards teaching to the test, whatever that test might be, and the concomitant thinking by students that anything not on the test isn't worth knowing. Over time, this leads to a population that can regurgitate specific facts, but can't take two seemingly unrelated items and synthesize some thing new and useful. Gone are the days where a professor can tell a class that "anything might be on the test. In fact, you may get a question that hasn't been covered at all by me, but shows your ability to think. After all, the most important thing I can teach you is how to think."

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The protesters are mad that the banks wrecked the economy and that unemployment is now the highest since the Great Depression (aside from a brief moment in the 80s). Rather than prosecute the bankers responsible, they're being paid off and immunized.

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I support OWS. I am employed. I have absolutely no debt. I am closer now to 50 than 20. I am not a hippy but I do enjoy letting my beard grow over the weekend.

The main demand of the OWS group has been posted here many times but for whatever reason the folks on the right don't want to see it.

GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.

Stop letting corporations run this country. Stop voting for people who appoint folks to the Supreme Court who turn around and give corporations "special rights" above and beyond the people.

This has nothing to do with being anti-capitalist, socialist, communist, or whatever else you want to brand the movement no matter how many times you hear it on Fox News.

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This event, from my understanding, is only partly about loans, actually, very small portion is about student loans. Sadly the message is shifted from, the banks got bailed out, how about you cover my student debt, while you're at it? Politicians see a student debt restructure as an easy way to make the kids happy. At least that's how I think it's going down.

You can't remove money from politics. It's unfortunate, but true. So long as we have free speech, the people with the most money will spend that money to use their 1st amendment right and talk to as many people as they can. Of course they will remind their candidate of what they've just done.

These kids want to hurt corporations, they're doing it wrong. A poll done not too long ago showed that 43% percent of Americans are with ows. That's a lot of consumers. Somewhere near 150 million.

Start a new protest, ether than camp out and get arrested, start the boycott wall street movement. Quit your bank and get in a credit union, stop buying the latest iPhone when the phone you have is perfectly fine. Send a message to them in a way they can understand. Support small businesses, and be vocal, let them know why you do what you do.

It seems so simple to me, and for that I have to believe this really isn't about change, at least not good change.

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Apple didn't wreck the economy, companies in the financial industry did. The bank withdrawal is scheduled for 11/5.

Oh, well of course... I forgot that Apple doesn't engage the world with its corporate financing processes and does not rely in the least bit on consumer credit. They have absolutely no interest in politics or the global financial infrastructure. They are blameless and should be held up as a shining pillar of corporate morality. No doubt exists that Apple will also detach itself from the financial sector on 11/5 and they will no doubt ask that their employees stand united with OWS protesters and wag their fingers at those that have enabled its success. :wacko:

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I support OWS. I am employed. I have absolutely no debt. I am closer now to 50 than 20. I am not a hippy but I do enjoy letting my beard grow over the weekend.

The main demand of the OWS group has been posted here many times but for whatever reason the folks on the right don't want to see it.

GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.

Stop letting corporations run this country. Stop voting for people who appoint folks to the Supreme Court who turn around and give corporations "special rights" above and beyond the people.

This has nothing to do with being anti-capitalist, socialist, communist, or whatever else you want to brand the movement no matter how many times you hear it on Fox News.

You see only what you want to see in it. Its full of anti-capitalist, socialist people who do not have any desire to actually goto work. You support it, and you work, and many more do as well - but that does not change the movement. I doubt you are one of the bozos camping on the street thinking they are making a difference.

They dont just want corporate money out of politics, they want the money that the corporations and the top 25% of the country have. They want to take the money away from the corporations and banks and they want it redistributed....and they want it redistributed to them. I have not seen the right or the left defend the bailout the banks or GM received....nobody is defending that except for the politicians and Unions who benefited from it. That is why this "protest" is so misguided. They are protesting against the wrong people. If OWS is ever going to make any real difference its going to be a the ballot box not the streets.

I dont see that these kids taking their $150 out of the banks on 11/5 is going to do anything either. You actually have to have money in the bank for that to make any difference at all.

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Oh, well of course... I forgot that Apple doesn't engage the world with its corporate financing processes and does not rely in the least bit on consumer credit. They have absolutely no interest in politics or the global financial infrastructure. They are blameless and should be held up as a shining pillar of corporate morality. No doubt exists that Apple will also detach itself from the financial sector on 11/5 and they will no doubt ask that their employees stand united with OWS protesters and wag their fingers at those that have enabled its success. :wacko:

It would certainly be news if Apple actually had something to do with the financial crisis other than the indirect associations of being a functioning business.

Edited by barracuda
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You see only what you want to see in it. Its full of anti-capitalist, socialist people who do not have any desire to actually goto work. You support it, and you work, and many more do as well - but that does not change the movement. I doubt you are one of the bozos camping on the street thinking they are making a difference.

They dont just want corporate money out of politics, they want the money that the corporations and the top 25% of the country have. They want to take the money away from the corporations and banks and they want it redistributed....and they want it redistributed to them.

I have not seen the right or the left defend the bailout the banks or GM received....nobody is defending that except for the politicians and Unions who benefited from it. That is why this "protest" is so misguided. They are protesting against the wrong people. If OWS is ever going to make any real difference its going to be a the ballot box not the streets.

I dont see that these kids taking their $150 out of the banks on 11/5 is going to do anything either. You actually have to have money in the bank for that to make any difference at all.

I think it will eventually lead to the ballot box, but for now, my take is that the anger is mostly directed at immense power Wall Street has over the political process. It's also easier to protest en masse against Wall Street than against hundreds of individual elected officials who are a year or more away from re-election.

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