Occupy Wall Street?

[samagon]

But that's just the thing about people who myopically track current events. They are literal, there exists no sense of humor, and everyone so engaged hopes that the world can be changed the way they want to see it, fears that the world is presently doomed, and has no memory of the past. It is an abysmal and fruitless existence, that of a pawn.

but if you keep trudging towards the 8th rank you will be promoted to queen once you get there, or perhaps go for underpromotion and become a rook or bishop, maybe even a knight?

[west20th]

I stand corrected. I think that my analogy still is a good one, however.

Somewhat, but the war had as much to do with Nixon's election as the scary hippies. The Democrats (Humphrey) were saddled with the Vietnam war and Nixon sold everyone on his super secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. No more war no more scary hippies.

[VicMan]

It's interesting how, thanks to nostalgia, now people see the hippy era as fun days gone by. In fact, parts of the 1960s had a lot of tension (class tension and tension over a possible war).

Somewhat, but the war had as much to do with Nixon's election as the scary hippies. The Democrats (Humphrey) were saddled with the Vietnam war and Nixon sold everyone on his super secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. No more war no more scary hippies.

[Marksmu]

It is my opinion that Children of the Wealthy = Lazier than Union Workers.

It is not at all clear that we'd have a new president if the election were today. Not because of anything Obama has done to earn a second term, but that the GOP has cobbled together the most unappealing slate of candidates since...2008.

I won't comment on why the unions are offering support to OWS, since in my experience I have found that SMU grads have a greater understanding of unions than anyone else. However, it is worth noting that OWS has spread to 1,000 cities in the US and Europe, dwarfing any union support offered. It should also be noted that OWS has resisted the Democrats so far, probably because they believe that Democrats are part of the problem, but possibly also because of what they saw happen to the Tea Party once the GOP got their hands on them. But, the bigger reason is likely because OWS has so far resisted drawing up a list of demands, so no one knows exactly whose side they are on.

There are plenty of lazy children of wealthy folks - and there are plenty of them who saw the work their parents put in to get wealthy and emulate it. I have not experienced that with Unions. (Do not confuse union members with the Union itself - there are plenty of people who are forced to be in a union just to have a job and are just doing as they are told) The UNION in my experience with 7 different Union machine shops, requires more concessions from the company each year without any expectation of an increase in production or efficiency. There is no accountability connected to a demand in more pay. Likewise their is no interest in maintaining their competitiveness in the market...I outsource work to these shops and I get to see it first hand. It does not make me an expert by any means, but I do see the effect on our business. Each year the union shops costs have risen 6-8%, while non-union shops have had on average a 3.5-5% increase. With every customer trying to contain costs in ways we have never seen before a single percent on even small jobs is a big deal.

Back on the topic of the OWS "movement" it is still made up mostly of kids. Kids who don't have jobs, are in college, or fresh out of college and cant find work. . Its trendy, its cool, and as soon as its not cool and trendy - its over. They have not resisted democrats because they dont trust them....they have not resisted anything other than the police. They are just a bunch of kids who do not who to direct their anger towards - all they see is people who have more than them, and they want it. They don't care how they get it - they don't know how to take it, so they sit on the street and continue the party....its hardly a protest - its closer to a block party than anything else.

The OWS movement will mean nothing in the long run. They are lazy kids, and they will give up soon enough. The media is sensationalizing it because it fits their agenda, but its really nothing at all...no change will ever come from this joke of a protest.

All the polls I have seen show that any generic candidate with an R behind his name will beat Obama if the election were held today. While I don't like any of the candidates myself, I still think any of them would be a significant improvement - even Rick Perry - who I personally loathe. The only person more liberal than Perry in the field is Romney - who I would expect the media to continue to support because he is not the choice of the conservative republicans....he is the media's republican candidate because he is a democrat running as a republican.

[west20th]

...All the polls I have seen show that any generic candidate with an R behind his name will beat Obama...

Fortunately Obama isn't running against a "generic" Republican. He will be running against one of the clown parade the GOP will trot out.

[ricco67]

Well, I spotted an Art teacher that I know on the news, and I can't say that I am surprised.

But if she is against capitalism, then she needs to stop giving art lessons for money.

[KristinDaugherty]

Now, y'all, stop being so hard on the OWS guys. They went to all the trouble to make up hand signals for us!

TWINKLE FINGERS!

[RedScare]

Well, I spotted an Art teacher that I know on the news, and I can't say that I am surprised.

But if she is against capitalism, then she needs to stop giving art lessons for money.

You should probably learn the definitions of capitalism and socialism before you start smack talking art teachers.

[ricco67]

You should probably learn the definitions of capitalism and socialism before you start smack talking art teachers.

Well, I guess I didn't elaborate what she said on TV, but to me it smacked of socialism.

[samagon]

Fortunately Obama isn't running against a "generic" Republican. He will be running against one of the clown parade the GOP will trot out.

If the election were today, Cain shows 48% and Obama has 44%. remainder are undecided, or would vote for someone else.

More than any election in the past I think this coming election is going to be 'who is the lesser of two evils'

We know what Obama has accomplished, and it isn't a great record. We see some of the 'awesome' ideas that some of the republican candidates are offering, and well, I can't say they're great ideas (electric border fences? really?).

Well, I spotted an Art teacher that I know on the news, and I can't say that I am surprised.

But if she is against capitalism, then she needs to stop giving art lessons for money.

but are they all against capitalism? Is she? Or is she just angry, and are the commies just capitalizing on the event to try and gain their own traction?

[JJVilla]

The solution is rather simple, albeit draconian. Stop buying that crap. Stop borrowing the banks' money (not a problem, since they won't lend it). Shorten that list of 'must have' items sold by the companies you hate. And, for chrissakes, quit using the credit and debit cards. You're making those banks a fortune on those.

These banks and corporations only exist because of our greed, laziness, and impatience. Because we cannot wait to purchase something, credit cards exist. Because we are too cool to carry cash, debit cards exist. It took a generation or two for the American psyche to become one of unbridled greed. It will take that long to reverse it. The start is to change your indivdual mindset. It can happen. Look at how quickly the Hummer went from prized accessory of the nouveau successful to oversized symbol of greed and gluttony. Home sizes have begun shrinking. I'd like to see that happen to credit and debit cards, as well.

It's simple - if you don't like a company or product then don't buy it!

Agreed that many people and group's greed got us in the problems we are in. We also need to take personal responsibility for our actions and way forward.

[Marksmu]

If the election were today, Cain shows 48% and Obama has 44%. remainder are undecided, or would vote for someone else. More than any election in the past I think this coming election is going to be 'who is the lesser of two evils' We know what Obama has accomplished, and it isn't a great record. We see some of the 'awesome' ideas that some of the republican candidates are offering, and well, I can't say they're great ideas (electric border fences? really?).

but are they all against capitalism? Is she? Or is she just angry, and are the commies just capitalizing on the event to try and gain their own traction?

They are socialist - Each one that speaks says the same thing - They want the people who are more successful to pay more so that everyone can have more. They resent the fact that there are some who have more than they do. They interviewed several that I saw on tv at lunch just now and they said that we are a collective society - you would not have been able to be successful if it were not for us people who built your roads and allowed you to become successful, so since it is because of us that you are successful you need to pay more because you have more.

They are not saying that they should go back to school and get better degrees so that they are worth more, nor are they saying they will increase their hours to produce more and therefore earn more - they are saying that you make more than I do so you should pay more than I do. They think someone who goes to school for 20 years to become a doctor should make the same amount of money as the guy who dropped out of school and built the hospital the doctor practices in because without him that doctor could not practice.

Capitalism is great because there is always hope that you can make more if you work harder. If you work you can get ahead, but it takes smart choices. Its unlikely you are going to graduate from college and get a job if your major is in art history, philosophy, or some other liberal arts major that does little to make you a better applicant to the employer. While better than just a high school diploma, those do not qualify you to do anything other than teach, and I'm not disrespecting teachers here either.... These college kids out there without jobs are just begging and regretting their poor choices. You don't see them interviewing or talking to people who majored in engineering, physics, chemistry, biology or any of the sciences.....those people have jobs or are in grad school....nope they are interviewing people who mad bad choices and are getting to pay for those choices now...instead of them taking responsibility for those stupid choices, they expect others to just pay them more so those choices do not have consequences. A guaranteed living wage regardless of employment?! Are you kidding me!? Free college tuition? Why!? So you can pick another worthless major? Its hard to take the protesters seriously when what they are asking for is ridiculous!

[west20th]

If the election were today, Cain shows 48% and Obama has 44%. remainder are undecided, or would vote for someone else.

More than any election in the past I think this coming election is going to be 'who is the lesser of two evils'

We know what Obama has accomplished, and it isn't a great record. We see some of the 'awesome' ideas that some of the republican candidates are offering, and well, I can't say they're great ideas (electric border fences? really?).

but are they all against capitalism? Is she? Or is she just angry, and are the commies just capitalizing on the event to try and gain their own traction?

Most polls show Obama too be well ahead of Cain. Anyway, Cain will fizzle. I don't think you can sell a tax plan ripped off from Sim City for too long.

Edited October 18, 2011 by west20th

[Marksmu]

Most polls show Obama too be well ahead of Cain. Anyway, Cain will fizzle. I don't think you can sell a tax plan ripped off from Sim City for too long.

While I agree that Cain will likely fizzle - I dont think his tax plan is as big a joke as the media, and other candidates would have you believe. Obama is losing the support of die hard democrats - only the extreme left socialist still support him. Every poll I have seen shows obama carrying around 30-35% of the independents. I do not see how Obama stands a chance unless the republicans put forth the worst candidate ever - and I have not heard that John McCain is running again.

Cain's tax plan makes sense on quite a few levels. First, it introduces a 9% national sales tax which will force the collection of taxes on tens of million of illegal immigrants not paying taxes and lower the incentive on entering this country illegally. Second it will eliminate all the deductions that companies like GE get and just have a flat tax of 9% on corporations. That gives Corporations political certainty so that they will invest in the US again. Right now there is literally billions of dollars tied up in corporations that afraid to invest in future projects for fear of government changing the rules after they build a new project. And finally it puts a 9% income tax on every individual. Personally I think everyone should have to pay tax to get a vote - so I am all for this provision as well. The government is very ineffective at spending money, and if you give that money back to the people in the form of a reduction in taxes and at the same time you give corporations economic certainty that they can make long terms plans with, the economy will take off.

You can joke about the 9-9-9 tax plan being from sim-city but it is an enormous improvement over the current code which is full of loopholes and deductions and god knows what now. Clean it up - fire all the IRS agents that we dont need any longer, reduce the government payroll and lets get on with getting back in the business of making money, and out of the business of regulating who gets to make it and which friend or vulnerable we are going to buy off.

[RedScare]

I do not see how Obama stands a chance unless the republicans put forth the worst candidate ever - and I have not heard that John McCain is running again.

But, Rick Perry is.

Cain's tax plan makes sense on quite a few levels.

No, it doesn't.

[kylejack]

Rick Perry's done. Cain won't be the nominee. Maybe Romney.

[RedScare]

Cain's tax plan has no other purpose than to cut the taxes on the rich even further. But, one needn't engage in the "rich don't pay enough" argument to see what a failure this plan is. Best estimates are that this plan would generate about $1.8 trillion in revenue...more than 10% LESS than is collected now, and a whopping one-third less than prior to the recession. Think the national debt is bad now? Just wait until Cain is done with it. Adding a national sales tax is just adding another revenue source that can be increased later. Why would Tea Partiers want to give the government another source of revenue?

If a national sales tax is implemented, it will not include food and medicine. The poor will simply buy their retail goods from flea markets from retailers who won't pay the tax...like they often do now. The black market will explode. We'll spend a fortune chasing those sales taxes. Better to ditch the sales tax, and simply do away with deductions and exemptions on income. Tax all income the same, including capital gains. Then lower the overall rate to something that adequately funds government. Of course, Cain and others won't push something that makes sense, because it isn't sensational enough.

[kylejack]

Their tax plans don't really matter anyway. It's all speculative bunk. The Congress has to put that through, and I don't see either party having that kind of mandate after 2012.

[samagon]

They are socialist - Each one that speaks says the same thing -snip-

to me, this seems an incorrect statement, maybe you can say each one that has had their interview aired on TV, or news outlet.

I do think that a majority of the people engaged in it right now, as you say, are looking for some socialist reforms, but I must say, that I am not opposed to having an open and logical discussion regarding why the US economy is where it is right now, and what should be done to fix it.

I personally think there are too many regulations in some places, too few regulations in other places. Not enough tax on imported goods (whether manufactured by a "US" company or not), and not enough tax breaks for manufacturing goods in the USA.

As a consumer, I don't care whether a good is produced in China, USA, Taiwan, Japan, as long as it's cheap and works as advertised. The USA can't compete on price when it costs the same to employ 10 people in China as it does to employ 1 person in the USA, and then there's the environmental concerns. What environmental requirements are there on goods made in China? Why doesn't the EPA put restrictions on companies that are going to import something into the USA, regardless of the origin? You want to sell it in the USA, your facility has to be to USA standards. OSHA, EPA, etc.

Unfortunately, changes like this would be exceedingly unpopular, people wouldn't be able to get their kids a cell phone when they are 10, or a tablet when they are 5, or have a brand new TV that is twice as big as the one they just got last year, maybe they'd have to do with only 1 car every 6 or 7 years instead of every 2 or 3. Basically, we'd have to consume less, because things would cost more.

That's not even considering corporations being treated as individuals (campaign contributions), and the way lobbying works. It seems that the vast majority of politicians (whether conservative, or liberal; socialist, or capitalist) are owned by corporations, and don't make decisions based on the needs of the people who actually voted for them.

Anyway, all I'm saying is, don't discount the entire message because you don't agree with one part of it. The best I can figure it, they are standing up because there are things broken in this country that need to be fixed, at least that was all that I can gather the initial message of OWS was about.

Unfortunately, without a rudder (direction) anyone with a loud enough voice can end up steering the ship in whatever direction they want to go. That's why I don't think the OWS is going to work the way it should.

Edited October 18, 2011 by samagon

[crunchtastic]

Everyone here misunderstands effective protest. Once OWS has a 'strategy' it then will, sooner than later, get co-opted (for reference, note the dominionists' takeover of the Tea Party and its resulting drop in popularity). Keep it loose, keep it 10,000 feet up, and keep attracting people.

Since I'm the only one here, apparently, who has actually followed the rhetoric behind this movement's leadership for quite a while, let me spell it out for those of you who wrongly persist in believing it's hippies, hipsters or dem operatives: Get the money out of politics. OWS is not anti-capitalist, it's anti-corporatist, and if you don't understand the difference, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.

IMO the singular demand of OWS should be total campaign reform at the constitutional level.

[TheNiche]

Everyone here misunderstands effective protest. Once OWS has a 'strategy' it then will, sooner than later, get co-opted (for reference, note the dominionists' takeover of the Tea Party and its resulting drop in popularity). Keep it loose, keep it 10,000 feet up, and keep attracting people.

Since I'm the only one here, apparently, who has actually followed the rhetoric behind this movement's leadership for quite a while, let me spell it out for those of you who wrongly persist in believing it's hippies, hipsters or dem operatives: Get the money out of politics. OWS is not anti-capitalist, it's anti-corporatist, and if you don't understand the difference, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.

IMO the singular demand of OWS should be total campaign reform at the constitutional level.

I don't know what it is. I don't think that it knows what it is. Its demographic appeal is established among a trend-setting population and is already well understood by the powers that be; and therefore it can be analyzed, targeted, co-opted, dismantled, and ultimately sold stuff or transformed into something altogether different which can be sold as stuff (to the oblivious). It will fail. Resistance is futile.

Edited October 19, 2011 by TheNiche

[Marksmu]

Cain's tax plan has no other purpose than to cut the taxes on the rich even further. But, one needn't engage in the "rich don't pay enough" argument to see what a failure this plan is. Best estimates are that this plan would generate about $1.8 trillion in revenue...more than 10% LESS than is collected now, and a whopping one-third less than prior to the recession. Think the national debt is bad now? Just wait until Cain is done with it. Adding a national sales tax is just adding another revenue source that can be increased later. Why would Tea Partiers want to give the government another source of revenue?

If a national sales tax is implemented, it will not include food and medicine. The poor will simply buy their retail goods from flea markets from retailers who won't pay the tax...like they often do now. The black market will explode. We'll spend a fortune chasing those sales taxes. Better to ditch the sales tax, and simply do away with deductions and exemptions on income. Tax all income the same, including capital gains. Then lower the overall rate to something that adequately funds government. Of course, Cain and others won't push something that makes sense, because it isn't sensational enough.

I like the concept of your plan but it still misses the problem of the illegal immigrants not paying taxes. I have not seen any analysis of the Cain plan but a 9% sales tax is unavoidable everywhere except for flea markets and black markets and there are far too many immigrants for them all to shop at black market retailers. Seems like you could re-purpose just a few of those IRS agents who do nothing but audits to police the flea markets and keep a presence there. Any comprehensive tax plan needs to address the issues of immigrants not paying into the system but still utilizing our resources. I don't really have a method in mind to deal with that other than a sales tax, but illegal immigration and the economic impact it has on local governments and hospitals is a real cost and I think Cain is attempting to address in a ethnicity neutral manner.

[Mister X]

Off topic but I enjoyed watching President Obama win last night's republican debate. Watching those clowns destroy each other's credibility is pure gold. The grimace on Perry's face was priceless. Hitler would have been proud of all the republican candidates this year. They all seem to be running on hate.

[Marksmu]

Off topic but I enjoyed watching President Obama win last night's republican debate. Watching those clowns destroy each other's credibility is pure gold. The grimace on Perry's face was priceless. Hitler would have been proud of all the republican candidates this year. They all seem to be running on hate.

Hitler could run against Obama and probably still get elected. Obama will lose the election regardless of which poor choice the republicans throw at him.

The only way the Republicans can screw this up if is Ron Paul throws his hands in the air and runs as an independent against them. That is, in my opinion, the only way the republicans can lose this. Obama has done everything possible to secure his loss - from every bad decision, policy, bailout, class warfare plan that he could conceive. He is so full of himself he believes every thing that has gone wrong in this country is somebody elses fault. He gave the far left their wish list, and in the process he has middle America running away from him as fast as they can.

He will still get the black vote, the historically unemployed, the California socialists, the ***, lesbian, transgender, college professors, and the whites who suffer from white guilt. He has lost the support of the farmers, ranchers, small business, corporations, the health care industry, insurance industry, financial industry, and non-union manufacturing. About all he has left is the people that were going to vote for him even if he left for Tahiti the day he was inaugurated and never came back.

[RedScare]

I like the concept of your plan but it still misses the problem of the illegal immigrants not paying taxes. I have not seen any analysis of the Cain plan but a 9% sales tax is unavoidable everywhere except for flea markets and black markets and there are far too many immigrants for them all to shop at black market retailers. Seems like you could re-purpose just a few of those IRS agents who do nothing but audits to police the flea markets and keep a presence there. Any comprehensive tax plan needs to address the issues of immigrants not paying into the system but still utilizing our resources. I don't really have a method in mind to deal with that other than a sales tax, but illegal immigration and the economic impact it has on local governments and hospitals is a real cost and I think Cain is attempting to address in a ethnicity neutral manner.

The proposition that illegal immigrants...or all of the poor for that matter...is a myth. Let's use Texas as an example, since we both live here, and Texas has a sizeable illegal immigrant population. Some of the taxes in place in Texas are listed below, with a 'yes' or 'no' if the poor and illegals pay them.

Federal Income Tax: No, unless the immigrant is using a fake SSN, or the worker obtains an ITIN (individual Taxpayer ID number), in which case, the taxes are taken out, and never returned to the worker. Those paid in cash do not pay.

State Income Tax: No one pays, including illegals and poor.

Gas Tax: Yes to all.

Tolls: Yes to all.

Property Tax: Yes, if they own property. Renters pay indirectly, as a portion of rent goes toward taxes.

Sales Tax: Yes to all.

Cigarette & Alcohol Tax: Yes to all.

Capital Gains Tax: Yes to all.

FICA & Medicare: Yes, if they have a SSN. No, if paid in cash.

Auto Registration: Yes to all.

Hotel Tax: Yes to all.

Business Taxes: Yes, if business is registered.

Telephone & Utility Taxes: Yes to all.

So, an illegal immigrant in Texas pays every tax that US citizens pay to live in Texas. The only taxes not paid are those on income, including FICA and Medicare. However, these taxes are required to be withheld by the employer. If they are not withheld, the employer is liable for them. The greater violator, therefore, is the US employer, not the illegal. Further, if the black market is not a problem, as you suggest, then these lost withholdings are also not much of a problem. If they are a big problem now, they will be a bigger problem under Cain's plan.

Looking at this list of Texas taxes should give you a very clear idea why Governors Bush and Perry were never very interested in stemming illegal immigration. Not only do these workers provide a substantial and energetic supply of low skilled workers, they pay virtually every state and local tax that legal Texans pay. Because they are low wage workers, they may pay less than your wealthy friends, but percentage-wise, they pay a higher percentage of their wages in taxes than your wealthy friends, due to the regressive nature of sales and use taxes and tolls.

It is only income, FICA and Medicare taxes that might not be paid. However, the SSA is not bothered by this at all. They estimate that approximately $9 Billion per year is paid into Social Security by illegals who will never receive a dime bacl, due to their status. That money helps keep the fund somewhat solvent. Deporting thos workers would cause the Social Security fund to become insolvent 4 years earlier than currently projected.

The illegals pay plenty. Suggesting otherwise is to simply ignore all of the ways the government gets our money.

I should also point out that a 9% national sales tax will have a negative effect on consumption. In a country whose GDP is 70% comprised of consumer spending, this will be a big hit to the economy.

Edited October 19, 2011 by RedScare

[kylejack]

How did Obama engage in class warfare? Aren't we still on the Bush tax cuts?

[Marksmu]

Illegal immigrants use a disproportionate amount of care from the Harris County Hospital districts because they will not turn anyone away, regardless of the ability to pay. Even when they actually can afford to pay they use fake numbers and the hospital writes these off as noncollectable and does not pursue them. The hospital district is funded by property taxes. The number of illegals using the hospitals for primary and emergency care without paying for the services far exceeds the dollar value of the property tax revenue received from them. It takes an entire city of over 4 million people to subsidize these districts. Last I looked 25% of Texans lacked health and insurance. That means that 75% have insurance and are more likely to pursue care from a private hospital which has a higher standard of care.

59% of illegals do not have health care at all. Of those, you can suspect that many will be getting care from the county hospitals because it is free, and they do not ask for proof of citizenship or id. That is a very disproportionate number of people straining a hospital district to which they pay only a pittance. Wikidpedia, which is not a reliable source places the cost to Texas for giving health care to illegal immigrants at 1.3 Billion/year.

They pay consumption taxes and property taxes only. Every other service that is funded by our government that is available to them is essentially stolen. Its not a trivial dollar amount of stolen money. Most of the cost of illegals is hidden in the many services you claim they are paying for such as the hospital districts.

I should also point out that a 9% national sales tax will have a negative effect on consumption. In a country whose GDP is 70% comprised of consumer spending, this will be a big hit to the economy.

Not necessarily - a 9% sales tax will seem trivial to an individual whose effective tax rate is 30%, 25% or 15%.....the extra income from not paying income tax that IS squandered by the feds will filter down into the economy increasing job growth to meet the new demand from the flush of cash to the consumers. Also when corporations profits are taxed at 9% instead of 35% there SHOULD (thats a big should because its questionable) be an immediate and drastic lowering of the price of goods. Whether or not that would happen, I do not actually know

A 9% corporate tax lowers the price of goods, a 9% income tax makes more cash available to the consumers, and a 9% sales tax ensures that illegal immigrants pay federal taxes on top of the taxes that the state requires such as the existing sales tax and property taxes...I do not necessarily love the 9-9-9 plan, but the status quo is failing us miserably.

[Mister X]

Hitler could run against Obama and probably still get elected. Obama will lose the election regardless of which poor choice the republicans throw at him.

The only way the Republicans can screw this up if is Ron Paul throws his hands in the air and runs as an independent against them. That is, in my opinion, the only way the republicans can lose this. Obama has done everything possible to secure his loss - from every bad decision, policy, bailout, class warfare plan that he could conceive. He is so full of himself he believes every thing that has gone wrong in this country is somebody elses fault. He gave the far left their wish list, and in the process he has middle America running away from him as fast as they can.

He will still get the black vote, the historically unemployed, the California socialists, the ***, lesbian, transgender, college professors, and the whites who suffer from white guilt. He has lost the support of the farmers, ranchers, small business, corporations, the health care industry, insurance industry, financial industry, and non-union manufacturing. About all he has left is the people that were going to vote for him even if he left for Tahiti the day he was inaugurated and never came back.

Don't let your dreams and wishful thinking get in the way of reality. You might vote for Hitler over Obama but most America would not. Obama has the lowest approval numbers of his presidency and he STILL beats the republican candidates if the election were held today in most polls. The only one that comes close is Romney. Perry is doing an excellent job pointing out that Romney's faith total disqualifies him in the eyes of most republicans. Perry is sinking faster than the Titanic. And Cain (like Bachman and Gingrich) is a human joke waiting for a punch line.

Really, it's time to explore other news sources. Fox "News" is highly UNreliable. And believe me, the republicans WILL screw this up. From you're perspective they already have. The 3 most viable republican candidates have so much going against them within their own base (not including the moderates -the people who actually decide elections) that even people who hate Obama will end up voting for him.

After the OWS's energy is tapped by the left, you're side doesn't stand a change. This is the truth. Deal with it.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Mister X

[kylejack]

Illegal immigrants use a disproportionate amount of care from the Harris County Hospital districts because they will not turn anyone away, regardless of the ability to pay. Even when they actually can afford to pay they use fake numbers and the hospital writes these off as noncollectable and does not pursue them. The hospital district is funded by property taxes. The number of illegals using the hospitals for primary and emergency care without paying for the services far exceeds the dollar value of the property tax revenue received from them.

How much property tax is collected from them and how much do they collect in services?

[Marksmu]

How did Obama engage in class warfare? Aren't we still on the Bush tax cuts?

Really? Really? Every speech all he says is that the wealthy need to pay more so that we can give everyone else a bigger piece of the pie. It is in every single speech it comes up - even Biden while talking to 4th graders yesterday said he wants the wealthy to pay more in taxes so he can hire back all the teachers that the evil republicans made him fire. He said to 4th graders! 4th graders!

The only reason he has not fleeced the wealthy is because he has no control over the house. Soon enough he will have no control over anything.

[sevfiv]

Illegal immigrants use a disproportionate amount of care from the Harris County Hospital districts because they will not turn anyone away, regardless of the ability to pay. Even when they actually can afford to pay they use fake numbers and the hospital writes these off as noncollectable and does not pursue them. The hospital district is funded by property taxes. The number of illegals using the hospitals for primary and emergency care without paying for the services far exceeds the dollar value of the property tax revenue received from them.

How much property tax is collected from them and how much do they collect in services?

Ditto - I don't know the numbers on these things - where are they coming from? (link, paper source, anything please).

[RedScare]

Illegal immigrants use a disproportionate amount of care from the Harris County Hospital districts because they will not turn anyone away, regardless of the ability to pay. Even when they actually can afford to pay they use fake numbers and the hospital writes these off as noncollectable and does not pursue them. The hospital district is funded by property taxes. The number of illegals using the hospitals for primary and emergency care without paying for the services far exceeds the dollar value of the property tax revenue received from them. It takes an entire city of over 4 million people to subsidize these districts. Last I looked 25% of Texans lacked health and insurance. That means that 75% have insurance and are more likely to pursue care from a private hospital which has a higher standard of care.

59% of illegals do not have health care at all. Of those, you can suspect that many will be getting care from the county hospitals because it is free, and they do not ask for proof of citizenship or id. That is a very disproportionate number of people straining a hospital district to which they pay only a pittance. Wikidpedia, which is not a reliable source places the cost to Texas for giving health care to illegal immigrants at 1.3 Billion/year.

They pay consumption taxes and property taxes only. Every other service that is funded by our government that is available to them is essentially stolen. Its not a trivial dollar amount of stolen money. Most of the cost of illegals is hidden in the many services you claim they are paying for such as the hospital districts.

Not necessarily - a 9% sales tax will seem trivial to an individual whose effective tax rate is 30%, 25% or 15%.....the extra income from not paying income tax that IS squandered by the feds will filter down into the economy increasing job growth to meet the new demand from the flush of cash to the consumers. Also when corporations profits are taxed at 9% instead of 35% there SHOULD (thats a big should because its questionable) be an immediate and drastic lowering of the price of goods. Whether or not that would happen, I do not actually know

A 9% corporate tax lowers the price of goods, a 9% income tax makes more cash available to the consumers, and a 9% sales tax ensures that illegal immigrants pay federal taxes on top of the taxes that the state requires such as the existing sales tax and property taxes...I do not necessarily love the 9-9-9 plan, but the status quo is failing us miserably.

Trivial? Really? A 109% increase in city sales tax rates (144% in suburban areas) is trivial in your world? Cain's plan would increase the tax burden on those households earning between $10,000 and $20,000 by 950%! And you think that is a trivial number that wouldn't be noticed? The Tax Policy Center estimates that Cain's tax plan would INCREASE taxes on 84% of US households, though it would create huge tax breaks for the rich...that same group that already writes the rules for the rest of us.

Now, let's talk about those illegals again. You seem to be suggesting that only illegals do not pay, and are therefore a burden. But, the arguments you present apply to all of the poor, all of those who cannot afford health insurance, and all of those who are not wealthy enough to own a house. I suspect you are really upset at the poors, because the poors aren't carrying their weight. Given that you also support repealing minimum wage laws, I don't know where the poors are going to find that extra money to rise to your standards of an acceptable resident. But, since 41% of illegals have insurance, can they stay? Because they are paying their way.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44958832/ns/politics-decision_2012/

[kylejack]

Really? Really? Every speech all he says is that the wealthy need to pay more so that we can give everyone else a bigger piece of the pie. It is in every single speech it comes up - even Biden while talking to 4th graders yesterday said he wants the wealthy to pay more in taxes so he can hire back all the teachers that the evil republicans made him fire. He said to 4th graders! 4th graders!

The only reason he has not fleeced the wealthy is because he has no control over the house. Soon enough he will have no control over anything.

So you're mad about speeches, not enacted policy? Talk is cheap. Obama had 2 years with a Democrat Congress.

[Marksmu]

Ditto - I don't know the numbers on these things - where are they coming from? (link, paper source, anything please).

The Harris County Hospital district report (http://www.window.st...ed/4health.html) showed that 1 in 5 patients treated was an illegal immigrant. The care to treat illegal immigrants amounted to $97,300,000 or 14% of their total operating cost. Because they receive federal dollars as well, the hospital district is not entirely funded by the local tax payers. Am I to believe that Illegal immigrants in Houston make up 14% of the property tax base? Not a chance. The people who do not use the hospital districts make up a much larger percent of property tax payers because their property is worth more...An illegal immigrant who uses the free hospitals likely lives in a house valued around $75,000-$100,000 or rents an apartment.....a $75,000 house which may house 5 or more family members, all of whom receive free care would pay only $142 in hospital related property taxes. A two bedroom apartment is likely valued far far below $75,000 on the tax rolls.

Further since the Federal government is also subsidizing the care of the illegals, the percent that taxpayers are eating is even higher since they pay no income tax for the most part.

in Texas illegals qualify for free:

1. Education

2. Health Care

3. Substance abuse services

4. mental health

5. Immunizatons

6. Child Birth

7. Public Health

8. EMS

All of these things are funded by property tax and federal dollars. Since we all concede that the illegals are not paying income tax - we must look to property tax to pay for these items. Because the illegals are historically making far less money it is no gigantic leap to assume that the taxpayers and middle class homeowners (especially those whose house is their largest asset) are bearing the brunt of the impact on the cost of illegal immigrants.

Regardless of how much they are supposedly contributing to the economy with their purchasing power - they are draining certain sectors and that drain is being subsidized by those of who pay taxes and for our own health care.

The report I cited ends by stating that illegals spend and contribute more than they cost overall but then throws in this little nugget as the very last sentence: "While state revenues exceed state expenditures for undocumented immigrants, local governments and hospitals experience the opposite, with the estimated difference being $928.9 million for 2005" - that is a loss to local government/hospitals of $928.9 million.

The poor will always utilize a disproportionate amount of government provided handouts, but it should be our poor that we are supporting - not some other countries.

[Marksmu]

So you're mad about speeches, not enacted policy? Talk is cheap. Obama had 2 years with a Democrat Congress.

It is this polarizing talk - that has ignited the hatred and protests that we have seen from the tea party and the OW kids.

Talk is cheap, but it is also inflammatory - when the POTUS says he wants to raise taxes on successful people and make corporations pay more in taxes - how do you think a corporation deciding whether to build a plant here or India interprets that statement? Political uncertainty is costing this country billions - and its being spewed by the POTUS more than anyone else.

[Marksmu]

Trivial? Really? A 109% increase in city sales tax rates (144% in suburban areas) is trivial in your world? Cain's plan would increase the tax burden on those households earning between $10,000 and $20,000 by 950%! And you think that is a trivial number that wouldn't be noticed? The Tax Policy Center estimates that Cain's tax plan would INCREASE taxes on 84% of US households, though it would create huge tax breaks for the rich...that same group that already writes the rules for the rest of us.

Now, let's talk about those illegals again. You seem to be suggesting that only illegals do not pay, and are therefore a burden. But, the arguments you present apply to all of the poor, all of those who cannot afford health insurance, and all of those who are not wealthy enough to own a house. I suspect you are really upset at the poors, because the poors aren't carrying their weight. Given that you also support repealing minimum wage laws, I don't know where the poors are going to find that extra money to rise to your standards of an acceptable resident. But, since 41% of illegals have insurance, can they stay? Because they are paying their way.

http://www.msnbc.msn...-decision_2012/

That MSNBC article did not include 26% reduction of the price of goods. It's calculations and assumptions were also based upon 2013 laws and assuming the bush cuts were not extended. Thats certainly some biased math to base your beliefs upon.

Not sure where I supported repealing minimum wage laws....I am not upset about poor folk, there will always be poor folk, as their will always be jobs that do not require much skill at all - I am upset about my taxes supporting lazy people who are happy not working , and I am upset about supporting illegals - We could do a much better job supporting our legitimately poor folk who want to work at a 15% lower cost if the illegal poor folk were not taking those services intended for our poor folk.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Marksmu

[kylejack]

It is this polarizing talk - that has ignited the hatred and protests that we have seen from the tea party and the OW kids.

Talk is cheap, but it is also inflammatory - when the POTUS says he wants to raise taxes on successful people and make corporations pay more in taxes - how do you think a corporation deciding whether to build a plant here or India interprets that statement? Political uncertainty is costing this country billions - and its being spewed by the POTUS more than anyone else.

But you want taxes raised on a class of people as well. If POTUS is guilty of class warfare, you are as well. You wish to increase the tax on people making the least money with this 9 9 9 plan.

[kylejack]

That MSNBC article did not include 26% reduction of the price of goods.

Why will the price of goods decrease? Cain wants his 9% sales tax applied to each level of production, so that all snowballs into the consumer.

[Marksmu]

Why will the price of goods decrease? Cain wants his 9% sales tax applied to each level of production, so that all snowballs into the consumer.

I had not read that - If that is case that would substantially increase the price of goods to everyone. There has always been a tax deduction that pushes taxes to the final end user only and allows the suppliers and manufacturer to be exempt until complete

[kylejack]

I had not read that - If that is case that would substantially increase the price of goods to everyone. There has always been a tax deduction that pushes taxes to the final end user only and allows the suppliers and manufacturer to be exempt until complete

Bachmann brought it up at the debate last night and Cain ignored it and didn't respond, so I'm assuming it's true. Hard to find detailed information on his plan.

[RedScare]

GE paid no corporate tax last year. the 9-9-9 plan would actually increase GE's tax liability. There will be no 26% reduction in the price of GE products. In fact, using your utterly rediculous assumption that companies would reduce prices due to tax savings (they won't, they'll keep the savings), prices on GE products would INCREASE 9%. So would prices on many other products where the corporations pay vurtually nothing due to tax breaks.

Furthermore, the article points out that Cain's plan intends to tax food and medicine, as well. Now, the cost to eat and get sick just jumped 9% overnight, while poor and middle class salaries drop 1%. So, the number of people on Food stamps and Medicaid jumps, but Cain's plan brings in 17% less revenue, so I suppose we'll just have an even hungrier and sicker nation.

[samagon]

Trivial? Really? A 109% increase in city sales tax rates (144% in suburban areas) is trivial in your world? Cain's plan would increase the tax burden on those households earning between $10,000 and $20,000 by 950%! And you think that is a trivial number that wouldn't be noticed? The Tax Policy Center estimates that Cain's tax plan would INCREASE taxes on 84% of US households, though it would create huge tax breaks for the rich...that same group that already writes the rules for the rest of us.

Now, let's talk about those illegals again. You seem to be suggesting that only illegals do not pay, and are therefore a burden. But, the arguments you present apply to all of the poor, all of those who cannot afford health insurance, and all of those who are not wealthy enough to own a house. I suspect you are really upset at the poors, because the poors aren't carrying their weight. Given that you also support repealing minimum wage laws, I don't know where the poors are going to find that extra money to rise to your standards of an acceptable resident. But, since 41% of illegals have insurance, can they stay? Because they are paying their way.

http://www.msnbc.msn...-decision_2012/

are the numbers you're going with considering that there are nontaxable items? Food for instance?

Furthermore, the article points out that Cain's plan intends to tax food and medicine, as well. Now, the cost to eat and get sick just jumped 9% overnight, while poor and middle class salaries drop 1%. So, the number of people on Food stamps and Medicaid jumps, but Cain's plan brings in 17% less revenue, so I suppose we'll just have an even hungrier and sicker nation.

that's interesting, cause what I've read said that there were nontaxable items..

I'll look for it and post.

Edited October 19, 2011 by samagon

[RedScare]

Sam, the article specifically mentioned that Cain's plan...unlike most plans...does not exempt food and medicine. However, it only taxes goods once. Used goods would be tax free, so as long as you buy from Craiglist and dumpster dive, you'd be saving money.

Here is the Tax Policy Center Report...

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/Cain-9-9-9-plan.cfm

Edited October 19, 2011 by RedScare

[Ross]

Why will the price of goods decrease? Cain wants his 9% sales tax applied to each level of production, so that all snowballs into the consumer.

The 9% would be applied to the incremental value added, hence Bachmann's claim that it's really a VAT. I don't have any particular problems with VAT, but they need to be correctly implemented, or the compliance costs are awful.

[Utinga]

Really? That's the only thing you got out of this post? You're not in the least bit offended by the fact that the Government was equal in stature as a terrorist

My appolligies, would you rather I write how people in general are greedy, self-centered and no amount of our writings here will change that fact. I could blather on for paragraphs full of verbal masturbation on this post and we will both wake tomorrow to the sameness of it all

Now, should I not be the lazy white trash dude that I am, I'd be doing something besides wringing my hands here or holding a sign there. They are young and full of grandiose ideas, let them protest.

[Utinga]

Edited October 21, 2011 by Utinga

[KinkaidAlum]

If anyone is interested in the 'movement,' google Kalle Lasn and culturejamming and start reading AdBusters. These are the same people behind Buy Nothing Day. Without belaboring the point, I support OWS, but do believe that short of near-societal collapse, people in wealthy Western companies will just continue to happily eat all the crap that's fed to them, figuratively, politically, literally.

Am I the only one who caught what you did here?

Spot on by the way. Every day we become less of a nation and more of a market.

[KinkaidAlum]

Everyone here misunderstands effective protest. Once OWS has a 'strategy' it then will, sooner than later, get co-opted (for reference, note the dominionists' takeover of the Tea Party and its resulting drop in popularity). Keep it loose, keep it 10,000 feet up, and keep attracting people.

Since I'm the only one here, apparently, who has actually followed the rhetoric behind this movement's leadership for quite a while, let me spell it out for those of you who wrongly persist in believing it's hippies, hipsters or dem operatives: Get the money out of politics. OWS is not anti-capitalist, it's anti-corporatist, and if you don't understand the difference, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.

IMO the singular demand of OWS should be total campaign reform at the constitutional level.

You need to post more. I had almost forgotten that I had a crush on you.

[TheNiche]

Am I the only one who caught what you did here?

Spot on by the way. Every day we become less of a nation and more of a market.

No, we were never anything more than a market. It's just that every day, more people awaken to a truth to which they are unaccustomed. That, whiskey, and the internet allow cathartic release unlike our civilization has ever experienced...in the sense that we all get to foot around our problems with rhetoric (and do nothing) rather than resolve them with violence. I'm not sure which is the better existence. And I don't care.

[Niche inexplicably flips the bird to everyone. He thinks its funny even though you don't, and he doesn't care about that either.]

[Marksmu]

Sam, the article specifically mentioned that Cain's plan...unlike most plans...does not exempt food and medicine. However, it only taxes goods once. Used goods would be tax free, so as long as you buy from Craiglist and dumpster dive, you'd be saving money.

Here is the Tax Policy Center Report...

http://www.taxpolicy...-9-9-9-plan.cfm

I was on a tractor for 9 hours yesterday and I listened to an interview with Cain about his 9-9-9 plan....it was about 15 minutes long. He explained that all raw materials would be tax free until the final point of sale just as they are now, thus there would not be an extra 9, 18, 27 or 36% increase built into the price of goods. He used a loaf of bread in his explanation that right now a loaf is taxed 5 times - the farmer, the miller, the baker, the trucker, and the retailer. In his plan only the retailer pays a tax. He also explained that people below a certain income level would carry a card of some kind, and he was not sure how he would do that yet, or what the income breaks would be, but that card, much like a welfare card would exempt people below certain income levels from paying tax on food and other essential goods. Only US citizens with proof of citizenship would qualify for that card. He also stated he would establish certain tax free zones to encourage growth in certain areas, but that was not worked out all the way yet either.

He went on to state that he would tax raw materials that originated from other countries, thus creating an incentive for US companies to buy goods manufactured in the US. If other countries wanted their goods to be exempt from our 9% tax they would have to meet the US minimum wage laws.

He expects that companies should see a reduction in taxes of between 18 and 27%. Whether or not that gets passed onto the consumer as it should is debatable. Part of me says it would, but the cynic in me says that many companies would pocket the majority of the savings and reduce the price of the goods by 9% because most Americans are too stupid to realize that the company saved much more than just 9%. (my opinion, not his)

The taxpolicy report is not able to make a realistic estimation of what the real impact would be because there are still too many details that have not been finalized, but there were 2 or 3 assumptions in the report that he dispelled in yesterdays interview.