Occupy Wall Street?

[samagon]

Has anyone else been following this? It's some serious stuff going on, and getting more and more serious.

I can't say I don't disagree with their sentiment of being fed up, but I also don't think I agree with the way they are going about this.

It seems that actions are getting more and more heated, and I think it's only a matter of time before they get out of hand.

It's sad really.

Are any of you participating in the Occupy Houston? What are your reasons? Anyone against this vehemently?

[RedScare]

What way are they going about it? Are you offended that when government tires of them and orders them to leave, they refused? Is that the way free speech and freedom of assembly works in your world, that it is allowed until you get tired of listening to it?

I've only looked at one article so far, but it appears that police in several cities are attempting to simply close down whatever area the protesters occupy, figuring they will go home.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44900423/ns/us_news-life/

[ricco67]

If you're the president of Venezuela, then you would be horrified at their treatment.

I guess he hasn't been paying attention to the protests in the Arab world or he might have fallen over and died. We all know that would be an absolute shame.

[samagon]

I've done a fair amount of reading, trying to figure out what's going on, and other than a bunch of people doing what amounts to not much more than being angry, there isn't a unified message. there's been a few groups within the group that have released what they want, and others something different, but the only real cohesivivity (yeah, I just made that one up) they have is being angry with the way things are right now.

To me, it seems like temper tantrum, yelling and screaming with no real point to it.

Anyway, I can't say I agree/disagree with them being booted out. On the one hand, there are rules in place to allow peaceable assembly, but doing it on private property (which the park in NY is), they need to follow the rules set forth by the land owner. And they have been very gracious to date allowing them to stay there. I'm sure there's a great potential for insurance nightmares.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot that needs to change in our country, there's a lot that's broke. But without a clear concise message about what they think is broke, and how to fix it, there's not much there. At least, not in my opinion.

[TheNiche]

This is irrelevant.

[RedScare]

This is exactly the way the Tea Party started, a whole bunch of people angry at a bunch of different things. When the GOP saw an opportunity to channel that anger against Obama, the Tea Party gained some traction. The Democrats are already making attempts to co-opt the OWS protesters, though it remains to be seen whether they will succeed, as some of the anger is aimed at Democratic policies. Then again, some Tea Party anger was aimed at the GOP, and that didn't stop them from trying to jump in front of the parade.

The private property argument is exceedingly week, given that the park is public by agreement with the city. The park was offered as a public place in return for a building height variance for the building next door. It is not simply an act of generosity, and is required to be open 24/7. For all intents and purposes, it is a public park that is maintained privately. In fact, the protesters originally planned to camp at a plaza owned by Chase Manhattan, but the plaza was closed. Zucotti Park is required to stay open, and not subject to NYC park curfews. Those attempting to not follow the rules are the city and Brookfield, not the protesters.

I will agree with Niche that this is largely irrelevant, as the US has been bought and paid for by US corporations. They have shrewdly purchased politicians on both sides of the aisle, so there is no one to address the protesters' concerns. Public opinion might believe that the GOP is in the pocket of the corporations, since they publicly advocate for them, but the Democrats have protected the banks and Wall Street. Most powerful government financial positions are occupied by former Golman Sachs execs. There is no one in Washington DC who gives a rat's ass about a few thousand unemployed college grads. I sympathize with them, but the extent of my power to help is to change banks when they attempt to raise my fees. Even that power is limited when ALL of them raise fees.

[Geoff8201]

Does anyone know what their message clearly is? Cause I'm a little lost there.

From what I gather... I'm mad too bailouts had to be given, like rewards for bad behavior, I think it sucks that there is such an outnumbering of poor over rich, and I'm planning my future based on uncertainty, and the assumption I will never be able to retire... But you know what, these cycles in the economy happen...corporations get greedy, but I believe they pay for it in the long run, and this is when things even back out... and as for me, I'm trying to increase my earning potential, going back to class, spending less, saving more, trying to eliminate my debts, trying to stay healthy cause I'm gonna be working a looooong time, and living within my means as much as my sanity will allow.

That last one is probably the most important... if you have money, you get to let loose and let that trickle down economics things actually work a little, don't hoard it and if you don't have money, don't rely on credit cards and government because you cant pay what you don't have and handouts wont last forever... they can't.

However, to get back on topic... I did find it ironic however, some photos i saw from NYC of the protestors Tweet/Blog command centers. High dollar computers which of course come from big corporations like Apple, Sony, etc...all running on portable generators powered by gasoline, aka big oil.... used to protest Wall Street. Gotta love it!

[RedScare]

I may not know what their message clearly is, but as convoluted as your post was, it sounds as if you'd fit right in.

[samagon]

Red, you hit on the head very much what I recall from the beginning of the tp. Only difference here is that the message of "we are fed up" seems to be brought up by a different group of people, so the message is completely different. It doesn't seem to be.

Time will tell though.

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

[infinite_jim]

A'meritocracy Now

I love the smell of corruption in the morning.

[RedScare]

samagon,

It seemed to me that many of the original TeaPartiers were mad at taxes and the bailout, but they seemed to largely blame the Democrats for both. (It doesn't really matter whether the Dems were responsible, only that the Tea Party blamed them.) The OWS protesters seem angry at the bailout recipients, basically because they took taxpayer financed loans and used them to unfairly profit, instead of using them to loosen credit, as intended. So, both groups seem angry at the bailouts, one for the government for giving them in the first place, and the other at those receiving the money.

I don't know if that is enough common ground for the groups to come together (I doubt it), but that would be a sight to see. Personally, what I'd like to see is the creation of an alternate economy. If the 1% will not share, quit buying from them. I know that it would never happen full scale, but even a 10% shift in the economy would cripple the major players. Oh well, a closet anarchist can dream.

Here's an article about the guy who came up with the idea of Occupy Wall Street.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/10/14/the-brains-behind-occupy-wall-street-and-where-its-heading/

[samagon]

red, in my mind that's the sad thing about both the tp and this party, neither of them have it right, they both think their affiliations are true, and it's the other guys fault. when in reality, they're all bought and paid for by some special interest.

[RedScare]

red, in my mind that's the sad thing about both the tp and this party, neither of them have it right, they both think their affiliations are true, and it's the other guys fault. when in reality, they're all bought and paid for by some special interest.

I agree, though this group seems more aware that allowing other groups (unions and Democrats) to "help" could torpedo the message. It remains to be seen whether they stay "pure" so to speak. It is still early. The Tea Party was accepting help from K Street and Fox News almost from the beginning.

And here's another problem. Once the awareness is achieved, what to do about it. Punishing Wall Street for the sake of punishment seems a hollow victory, as the 99% will not see any improvement in their day to day lives. And, you cannot force corporations to hire people. All you can really do is give them even more breaks in an effort to use their greed for a good purpose. Income and wealth disparity, and the problems of the middle class are a collective American problem. The banks, corporations, and marketing firms all colluded to entice middle America to go on a buying binge, and happily lent them the money to do it. That's fine. BUT, middle America's greed or vanity or shallowness fueled the shopping frenzy. Americans who grew up happy in a 1400 square foot home now need 2800 square feet to survive? Their parents managed to take them on vacation in a station wagon, but now...with fewer children...only a Suburban is large enough? And let's not even go into the mindset required to purchase $400 purses and $150 jeans.

The solution is rather simple, albeit draconian. Stop buying that crap. Stop borrowing the banks' money (not a problem, since they won't lend it). Shorten that list of 'must have' items sold by the companies you hate. And, for chrissakes, quit using the credit and debit cards. You're making those banks a fortune on those.

These banks and corporations only exist because of our greed, laziness, and impatience. Because we cannot wait to purchase something, credit cards exist. Because we are too cool to carry cash, debit cards exist. It took a generation or two for the American psyche to become one of unbridled greed. It will take that long to reverse it. The start is to change your indivdual mindset. It can happen. Look at how quickly the Hummer went from prized accessory of the nouveau successful to oversized symbol of greed and gluttony. Home sizes have begun shrinking. I'd like to see that happen to credit and debit cards, as well.

[trymahjong]

I'm in Manhattan--- lots of talk here about OWS in the neighborhood-- NY1 usually has interviews with somebody involved (with OWS) everyday--the otherside of the coin are the interviews by residents close to the park who are exhausted at all the hoopla and inconvience of having the protestors there 24/7. . .plus residents wonder what is expected and when will it end . . then there are the interviews that list in depth the cost of this protest to the city and the policeforce. . . . . . .and of course the number of people arrested is updated each hour. . . .

result=> the talk here in my neighborhood isn't about any of the important issues that might have been the impetus of this "phenomenon" rather it's talk about residents rights ie " blocking the sidewalk to the subway when trying to get to work. . . . .residents have to use that sidewalk each day. . . . . etcetc " I guess it's a matter of perspective. . . . . and the perspective seems to be that the residents are fed up with the protest.

[Fringe]

Think I'm going to go down and protest against the protesters.

[ricco67]

According tothis article, some of the beliefs that are held by some people REALLY need to be educated:

Rank yourself on the following Scale of Liberalism:.

Not liberal at all: 6

Liberal but fairly mainstream (i.e., Barack Obama): 3

Strongly liberal (i.e., Paul Krugman): 12

Fed up with Democrats, believe country needs overhaul (i.e., Ralph Nader): 41

Convinced the U.S. government is no better than, say, Al Qaeda (i.e., Noam Chomsky): 34

[Utinga]

According tothis article, some of the beliefs that are held by some people REALLY need to be educated:

Your link could NOT have been a better portrait of American greed. The only Police officer who isn't overweight would be the African American gal. This is a must-repost. Thanks a million.

[VicMan]

And, for chrissakes, quit using the credit and debit cards. You're making those banks a fortune on those.

What alternatives would you suggest?

[TheNiche]

Your link could NOT have been a better portrait of American greed. The only Police officer who isn't overweight would be the African American gal. This is a must-repost. Thanks a million.

The attitude that NYPD is filled with fat and greedy (I'll just say it...) 'pigs' is the type of attitude that turns off middle America. If a connection with this movement and the Democratic Party is made between union members and minority voters, who tend to be older and socially conservative, then they probably won't switch sides...but they may very simply stay home on election day.

The protests may be cathartic, but they are self-defeating.

[ricco67]

Your link could NOT have been a better portrait of American greed. The only Police officer who isn't overweight would be the African American gal. This is a must-repost. Thanks a million.

Really? That's the only thing you got out of this post? You're not in the least bit offended by the fact that the Government was equal in stature as a terrorist organization?

What alternatives would you suggest?

Cash your check and keep it under a mattress. get yourself off the grid.

[crunchtastic]

If anyone is interested in the 'movement,' google Kalle Lasn and culturejamming and start reading AdBusters. These are the same people behind Buy Nothing Day. Without belaboring the point, I support OWS, but do believe that short of near-societal collapse, people in wealthy Western companies will just continue to happily eat all the crap that's fed to them, figuratively, politically, literally.

[VicMan]

Couldn't I do a credit union?

How would I collect interest with my savings?

Cash your check and keep it under a mattress. get yourself off the grid.

[RedScare]

What alternatives would you suggest?

Back in the day, we used cash and...gasp...checks!

Cash still works for small purchases, checks for large ones. I pay several bills online with echecks. I am still somewhat addicted to the debit card, but haven't used a credit card since 2005. Since my checking account is still free of fees, I will stick with it (Amegy), but the minute they pull a BofA stunt, I'm gone, perhaps to another small bank, or a credit union.

[barracuda]

I don't think the medium used for payment is necessarily important. As so long as you use prudence and have the liquidity, a credit card doesn't have to cost anything. I'm one of those customers who the credit card companies probably hate, because I pay off the balance every month yet still accrue points that I don't get when writing checks or paying cash. Those lacking self-control can really hurt themselves though.

[barracuda]

If anyone is interested in the 'movement,' google Kalle Lasn and culturejamming and start reading AdBusters. These are the same people behind Buy Nothing Day. Without belaboring the point, I support OWS, but do believe that short of near-societal collapse, people in wealthy Western companies will just continue to happily eat all the crap that's fed to them, figuratively, politically, literally.

I read Adbusters periodically...they make some very uncomfortable critiques, and while I think they are often a bit sensational, most of the time I'm afraid they have a valid point. I do like that they engage in important topics the MSM ignores. That said, they are reactionary and dont really seem to offer much in the way of solutions, which seems to be a challenge for OWS also.

[TheNiche]

I read Adbusters periodically...they make some very uncomfortable critiques, and while I think they are often a bit sensational, most of the time I'm afraid they have a valid point. I do like that they engage in important topics the MSM ignores. That said, they are reactionary and dont really seem to offer much in the way of solutions, which seems to be a challenge for OWS also.

I read a few of their articles just now, just to evaluate that statement. The magazine yields insight into the demography and rital social behavior of angry hipsters. It'd make for about a dozen fascinating sociological studies on their population.

Otherwise, I stand by Post #5.

[ricco67]

Couldn't I do a credit union?

How would I collect interest with my savings?

Then you suck it up and you don't. If you want interest on your savings, then you are someone who is working on a capitalist system.

Stick it to the man, dude! If you're going to go with a principle, don't do it half-assed.

A great quote was said about something along these lines.

"Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."

[Guest Jasper]

What's occupying Wall Street? how about ignorant fools!

When I get hungry, I look for a way to make money, so I can buy food, so I am not hungry anymore.

I have never begged...

[kylejack]

I support it. As to things becoming "more heated", most of the violence seems to be coming from the police.

[TheNiche]

I support it. As to things becoming "more heated", most of the violence seems to be coming from the police.

So...you are in support of police violence against hipsters?

Does not compute.