Occupy Wall Street?

[samagon]

Has anyone else been following this? It's some serious stuff going on, and getting more and more serious.

I can't say I don't disagree with their sentiment of being fed up, but I also don't think I agree with the way they are going about this.

It seems that actions are getting more and more heated, and I think it's only a matter of time before they get out of hand.

It's sad really.

Are any of you participating in the Occupy Houston? What are your reasons? Anyone against this vehemently?

[RedScare]

What way are they going about it? Are you offended that when government tires of them and orders them to leave, they refused? Is that the way free speech and freedom of assembly works in your world, that it is allowed until you get tired of listening to it?

I've only looked at one article so far, but it appears that police in several cities are attempting to simply close down whatever area the protesters occupy, figuring they will go home.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44900423/ns/us_news-life/

[ricco67]

If you're the president of Venezuela, then you would be horrified at their treatment.

I guess he hasn't been paying attention to the protests in the Arab world or he might have fallen over and died. We all know that would be an absolute shame.

[samagon]

I've done a fair amount of reading, trying to figure out what's going on, and other than a bunch of people doing what amounts to not much more than being angry, there isn't a unified message. there's been a few groups within the group that have released what they want, and others something different, but the only real cohesivivity (yeah, I just made that one up) they have is being angry with the way things are right now.

To me, it seems like temper tantrum, yelling and screaming with no real point to it.

Anyway, I can't say I agree/disagree with them being booted out. On the one hand, there are rules in place to allow peaceable assembly, but doing it on private property (which the park in NY is), they need to follow the rules set forth by the land owner. And they have been very gracious to date allowing them to stay there. I'm sure there's a great potential for insurance nightmares.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot that needs to change in our country, there's a lot that's broke. But without a clear concise message about what they think is broke, and how to fix it, there's not much there. At least, not in my opinion.

Edited October 14, 2011 by samagon

[TheNiche]

This is irrelevant.

[RedScare]

This is exactly the way the Tea Party started, a whole bunch of people angry at a bunch of different things. When the GOP saw an opportunity to channel that anger against Obama, the Tea Party gained some traction. The Democrats are already making attempts to co-opt the OWS protesters, though it remains to be seen whether they will succeed, as some of the anger is aimed at Democratic policies. Then again, some Tea Party anger was aimed at the GOP, and that didn't stop them from trying to jump in front of the parade.

The private property argument is exceedingly week, given that the park is public by agreement with the city. The park was offered as a public place in return for a building height variance for the building next door. It is not simply an act of generosity, and is required to be open 24/7. For all intents and purposes, it is a public park that is maintained privately. In fact, the protesters originally planned to camp at a plaza owned by Chase Manhattan, but the plaza was closed. Zucotti Park is required to stay open, and not subject to NYC park curfews. Those attempting to not follow the rules are the city and Brookfield, not the protesters.

I will agree with Niche that this is largely irrelevant, as the US has been bought and paid for by US corporations. They have shrewdly purchased politicians on both sides of the aisle, so there is no one to address the protesters' concerns. Public opinion might believe that the GOP is in the pocket of the corporations, since they publicly advocate for them, but the Democrats have protected the banks and Wall Street. Most powerful government financial positions are occupied by former Golman Sachs execs. There is no one in Washington DC who gives a rat's ass about a few thousand unemployed college grads. I sympathize with them, but the extent of my power to help is to change banks when they attempt to raise my fees. Even that power is limited when ALL of them raise fees.

Edited October 14, 2011 by RedScare

[Geoff8201]

Does anyone know what their message clearly is? Cause I'm a little lost there.

From what I gather... I'm mad too bailouts had to be given, like rewards for bad behavior, I think it sucks that there is such an outnumbering of poor over rich, and I'm planning my future based on uncertainty, and the assumption I will never be able to retire... But you know what, these cycles in the economy happen...corporations get greedy, but I believe they pay for it in the long run, and this is when things even back out... and as for me, I'm trying to increase my earning potential, going back to class, spending less, saving more, trying to eliminate my debts, trying to stay healthy cause I'm gonna be working a looooong time, and living within my means as much as my sanity will allow.

That last one is probably the most important... if you have money, you get to let loose and let that trickle down economics things actually work a little, don't hoard it and if you don't have money, don't rely on credit cards and government because you cant pay what you don't have and handouts wont last forever... they can't.

However, to get back on topic... I did find it ironic however, some photos i saw from NYC of the protestors Tweet/Blog command centers. High dollar computers which of course come from big corporations like Apple, Sony, etc...all running on portable generators powered by gasoline, aka big oil.... used to protest Wall Street. Gotta love it!

[RedScare]

I may not know what their message clearly is, but as convoluted as your post was, it sounds as if you'd fit right in.

[samagon]

Red, you hit on the head very much what I recall from the beginning of the tp. Only difference here is that the message of "we are fed up" seems to be brought up by a different group of people, so the message is completely different. It doesn't seem to be.

Time will tell though.

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

[infinite_jim]

A'meritocracy Now

I love the smell of corruption in the morning.

[RedScare]

samagon,

It seemed to me that many of the original TeaPartiers were mad at taxes and the bailout, but they seemed to largely blame the Democrats for both. (It doesn't really matter whether the Dems were responsible, only that the Tea Party blamed them.) The OWS protesters seem angry at the bailout recipients, basically because they took taxpayer financed loans and used them to unfairly profit, instead of using them to loosen credit, as intended. So, both groups seem angry at the bailouts, one for the government for giving them in the first place, and the other at those receiving the money.

I don't know if that is enough common ground for the groups to come together (I doubt it), but that would be a sight to see. Personally, what I'd like to see is the creation of an alternate economy. If the 1% will not share, quit buying from them. I know that it would never happen full scale, but even a 10% shift in the economy would cripple the major players. Oh well, a closet anarchist can dream.

Here's an article about the guy who came up with the idea of Occupy Wall Street.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/10/14/the-brains-behind-occupy-wall-street-and-where-its-heading/

Edited October 15, 2011 by RedScare

[samagon]

red, in my mind that's the sad thing about both the tp and this party, neither of them have it right, they both think their affiliations are true, and it's the other guys fault. when in reality, they're all bought and paid for by some special interest.

[RedScare]

red, in my mind that's the sad thing about both the tp and this party, neither of them have it right, they both think their affiliations are true, and it's the other guys fault. when in reality, they're all bought and paid for by some special interest.

I agree, though this group seems more aware that allowing other groups (unions and Democrats) to "help" could torpedo the message. It remains to be seen whether they stay "pure" so to speak. It is still early. The Tea Party was accepting help from K Street and Fox News almost from the beginning.

And here's another problem. Once the awareness is achieved, what to do about it. Punishing Wall Street for the sake of punishment seems a hollow victory, as the 99% will not see any improvement in their day to day lives. And, you cannot force corporations to hire people. All you can really do is give them even more breaks in an effort to use their greed for a good purpose. Income and wealth disparity, and the problems of the middle class are a collective American problem. The banks, corporations, and marketing firms all colluded to entice middle America to go on a buying binge, and happily lent them the money to do it. That's fine. BUT, middle America's greed or vanity or shallowness fueled the shopping frenzy. Americans who grew up happy in a 1400 square foot home now need 2800 square feet to survive? Their parents managed to take them on vacation in a station wagon, but now...with fewer children...only a Suburban is large enough? And let's not even go into the mindset required to purchase $400 purses and $150 jeans.

The solution is rather simple, albeit draconian. Stop buying that crap. Stop borrowing the banks' money (not a problem, since they won't lend it). Shorten that list of 'must have' items sold by the companies you hate. And, for chrissakes, quit using the credit and debit cards. You're making those banks a fortune on those.

These banks and corporations only exist because of our greed, laziness, and impatience. Because we cannot wait to purchase something, credit cards exist. Because we are too cool to carry cash, debit cards exist. It took a generation or two for the American psyche to become one of unbridled greed. It will take that long to reverse it. The start is to change your indivdual mindset. It can happen. Look at how quickly the Hummer went from prized accessory of the nouveau successful to oversized symbol of greed and gluttony. Home sizes have begun shrinking. I'd like to see that happen to credit and debit cards, as well.

Edited October 15, 2011 by RedScare

[trymahjong]

I'm in Manhattan--- lots of talk here about OWS in the neighborhood-- NY1 usually has interviews with somebody involved (with OWS) everyday--the otherside of the coin are the interviews by residents close to the park who are exhausted at all the hoopla and inconvience of having the protestors there 24/7. . .plus residents wonder what is expected and when will it end . . then there are the interviews that list in depth the cost of this protest to the city and the policeforce. . . . . . .and of course the number of people arrested is updated each hour. . . .

result=> the talk here in my neighborhood isn't about any of the important issues that might have been the impetus of this "phenomenon" rather it's talk about residents rights ie " blocking the sidewalk to the subway when trying to get to work. . . . .residents have to use that sidewalk each day. . . . . etcetc " I guess it's a matter of perspective. . . . . and the perspective seems to be that the residents are fed up with the protest.

Edited October 16, 2011 by trymahjong

[Fringe]

Think I'm going to go down and protest against the protesters.

[ricco67]

According tothis article, some of the beliefs that are held by some people REALLY need to be educated:

Rank yourself on the following Scale of Liberalism:.

Not liberal at all: 6

Liberal but fairly mainstream (i.e., Barack Obama): 3

Strongly liberal (i.e., Paul Krugman): 12

Fed up with Democrats, believe country needs overhaul (i.e., Ralph Nader): 41

Convinced the U.S. government is no better than, say, Al Qaeda (i.e., Noam Chomsky): 34

[Utinga]

According tothis article, some of the beliefs that are held by some people REALLY need to be educated:

Your link could NOT have been a better portrait of American greed. The only Police officer who isn't overweight would be the African American gal. This is a must-repost. Thanks a million.

[VicMan]

And, for chrissakes, quit using the credit and debit cards. You're making those banks a fortune on those.

What alternatives would you suggest?

[TheNiche]

Your link could NOT have been a better portrait of American greed. The only Police officer who isn't overweight would be the African American gal. This is a must-repost. Thanks a million.

The attitude that NYPD is filled with fat and greedy (I'll just say it...) 'pigs' is the type of attitude that turns off middle America. If a connection with this movement and the Democratic Party is made between union members and minority voters, who tend to be older and socially conservative, then they probably won't switch sides...but they may very simply stay home on election day.

The protests may be cathartic, but they are self-defeating.

[ricco67]

Your link could NOT have been a better portrait of American greed. The only Police officer who isn't overweight would be the African American gal. This is a must-repost. Thanks a million.

Really? That's the only thing you got out of this post? You're not in the least bit offended by the fact that the Government was equal in stature as a terrorist organization?

What alternatives would you suggest?

Cash your check and keep it under a mattress. get yourself off the grid.

[crunchtastic]

If anyone is interested in the 'movement,' google Kalle Lasn and culturejamming and start reading AdBusters. These are the same people behind Buy Nothing Day. Without belaboring the point, I support OWS, but do believe that short of near-societal collapse, people in wealthy Western companies will just continue to happily eat all the crap that's fed to them, figuratively, politically, literally.

[VicMan]

Couldn't I do a credit union?

How would I collect interest with my savings?

Cash your check and keep it under a mattress. get yourself off the grid.

[RedScare]

What alternatives would you suggest?

Back in the day, we used cash and...gasp...checks!

Cash still works for small purchases, checks for large ones. I pay several bills online with echecks. I am still somewhat addicted to the debit card, but haven't used a credit card since 2005. Since my checking account is still free of fees, I will stick with it (Amegy), but the minute they pull a BofA stunt, I'm gone, perhaps to another small bank, or a credit union.

[barracuda]

I don't think the medium used for payment is necessarily important. As so long as you use prudence and have the liquidity, a credit card doesn't have to cost anything. I'm one of those customers who the credit card companies probably hate, because I pay off the balance every month yet still accrue points that I don't get when writing checks or paying cash. Those lacking self-control can really hurt themselves though.

[barracuda]

If anyone is interested in the 'movement,' google Kalle Lasn and culturejamming and start reading AdBusters. These are the same people behind Buy Nothing Day. Without belaboring the point, I support OWS, but do believe that short of near-societal collapse, people in wealthy Western companies will just continue to happily eat all the crap that's fed to them, figuratively, politically, literally.

I read Adbusters periodically...they make some very uncomfortable critiques, and while I think they are often a bit sensational, most of the time I'm afraid they have a valid point. I do like that they engage in important topics the MSM ignores. That said, they are reactionary and dont really seem to offer much in the way of solutions, which seems to be a challenge for OWS also.

[TheNiche]

I read Adbusters periodically...they make some very uncomfortable critiques, and while I think they are often a bit sensational, most of the time I'm afraid they have a valid point. I do like that they engage in important topics the MSM ignores. That said, they are reactionary and dont really seem to offer much in the way of solutions, which seems to be a challenge for OWS also.

I read a few of their articles just now, just to evaluate that statement. The magazine yields insight into the demography and rital social behavior of angry hipsters. It'd make for about a dozen fascinating sociological studies on their population.

Otherwise, I stand by Post #5.

Edited October 17, 2011 by TheNiche

[ricco67]

Couldn't I do a credit union?

How would I collect interest with my savings?

Then you suck it up and you don't. If you want interest on your savings, then you are someone who is working on a capitalist system.

Stick it to the man, dude! If you're going to go with a principle, don't do it half-assed.

A great quote was said about something along these lines.

"Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."

[Guest Jasper]

What's occupying Wall Street? how about ignorant fools!

When I get hungry, I look for a way to make money, so I can buy food, so I am not hungry anymore.

I have never begged...

[kylejack]

I support it. As to things becoming "more heated", most of the violence seems to be coming from the police.

[TheNiche]

I support it. As to things becoming "more heated", most of the violence seems to be coming from the police.

So...you are in support of police violence against hipsters?

Does not compute.

[Marksmu]

According tothis article, some of the beliefs that are held by some people REALLY need to be educated:

I do not watch any cable news channels at all, but this "survey" confirms basically everything I have read or seen about the OW idiots. They are lazy socialist....they want everything handed to them so they dont have to work for it, and they want it to be the most expensive nicest things that those who actually do work for it have. There is no compromise - they see people with more, and they do not think its fair. They are the modern generation of democrats and they are being fueled by the president who keeps on upping the class warfare in every speech.

I am so sick of seeing a group of people like these kids who dont work, are not trying to work, and are telling the people who actually do work that they should not get to keep the fruit of their labor. It really is sickening to me to see any support of any kind behind such a movement. These people are socialist. They do not believe in democracy and they think capitalism is the root of all evil. They are nothing more than jealous because they are too darn lazy to go out and do for themselves.

Personally, I think every OW protestor is one of a few things - drug addicted loser, MSM or college brainwashed socialist, exceedingly lazy, union member (redundant with lazy), or a dumba$$ kid who just wants to party and pretend they are making a difference. The fact that the media is paying so much attention to this "movement" makes me sick. Its not a movement - its a group of lazy beggers who need to be moved along....they have no coherent message, they are not actually protesting anything other than America, and the things they claim they want are anti-American.

I support free speech and their right to protest, but that is the extent of my support for these fools, because that is what they are. Fools.

[kylejack]

So...you are in support of police violence against hipsters?

Does not compute.

Well the topic is the occupy protests, so when I say "it", I meant to imply the movement. The second sentence was responding to the "seems to be heating up" stuff in the OP.

[infinite_jim]

I do not watch any cable news channels at all, but this "survey" confirms basically everything I have read or seen about the OW idiots. They are [size="1"]lazy socialist....[b]they want [size="1"]everything handed to them so they dont have to work for it, and [/size]they want [size="1"]it to be the most expensive nicest things that those who actually do work for it have. There is no compromise - they see people with more, and they do not think its fair. They are the modern generation of democrats and they are being fueled by the president who keeps on upping the class warfare in every speech.

I am so sick of seeing a group of people like these kids who dont work, are not trying to work, and are telling the people who actually do work that they should not get to keep the fruit of their labor. It really is sickening to me to see any support of any kind behind such a movement. These people are socialist. They do not believe [size="1"]in democracy and they think capitalism is the root of all evil. They are [size="1"]nothing more than jealous because they are too darn lazy to go out and do for themselves.Personally, I think every OW protestor is one of a few things - drug addicted loser, MSM or college brainwashed socialist, exceedingly lazy, union member (redundant with lazy), or a dumba$$ kid who just wants to party and pretend they are making a difference. The fact that the media is paying so much attention to this "movement" makes me sick. Its not a movement - its a group of lazy beggers who need to be moved along..[/size]..they have no coherent message, they are not actually protesting anything other than America, and the things [/size]they claim they want are anti-American. [i]I support free speech and their right to protest, but that is the extent of my support for these fools, because that is what they are. Fools.

I'm convinced.

[TheNiche]

I'm convinced.

You should be. Marksmu's visceral reaction to hippies/hipsters is essentially analogous to the one that brought us Nixon in 1970. I don't know what you want, but I'd venture to say that you don't want anything like that.

[Marksmu]

You should be. Marksmu's visceral reaction to hippies/hipsters is essentially analogous to the one that brought us Nixon in 1970. I don't know what you want, but I'd venture to say that you don't want anything like that.

The OW people are the some of lowest of the low and the laziest of the laziest - if the news and the newspapers would just start to ignore the fact that they are still there, and we send cops in with a few drug sniffing dogs to clean up the illicit drugs, it will only be a few hours before they all go home. We are not dealing with some kind of intellectually powerful force with the wherewithal to stick it out .....were dealing with lazy people begging in mass. Once its no longer fun, no longer cool and nobody cares, it will end.

[Utinga]

"I support free speech and their right to protest, but that is the extent of my support for these fools, because that is what they are. Fools."

Ah, so if I protest your opinion of these fools, am I then also a fool? History is rife with fools changing the course of other fools. It's a silly cliché, but "It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. ..." In all disagreements there shall always be "fools", hopefully one of those fools will make our next great social change for the better. This fool can dream.

[west20th]

You should be. Marksmu's visceral reaction to hippies/hipsters is essentially analogous to the one that brought us Nixon in 1970. I don't know what you want, but I'd venture to say that you don't want anything like that.

'68. Young whippersnappers!

[Daniepwils]

The OW people are the some of lowest of the low and the laziest of the laziest - if the news and the newspapers would just start to ignore the fact that they are still there, and we send cops in with a few drug sniffing dogs to clean up the illicit drugs, it will only be a few hours before they all go home. We are not dealing with some kind of intellectually powerful force with the wherewithal to stick it out .....were dealing with lazy people begging in mass. Once its no longer fun, no longer cool and nobody cares, it will end.

If you would have posted this three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. However they now have people of all ages who who have worked their entire lives and are now unemployed with no other option but to protest. They also are starting to get union people out there as well, so it isn't just "lazy" people as you state.

[Marksmu]

If you would have posted this three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. However they now have people of all ages who who have worked their entire lives and are now unemployed with no other option but to protest. They also are starting to get union people out there as well, so it isn't just "lazy" people as you state.

It is my opinion that Union = Lazy -however to expand on your point - the unions are only coming in to support the protests, along with other out of work democrats in an effort to do what Fox news did to the tea party - that is to give it a definitive party affiliation for their particular gain. The unions got together and said hey - these guys are there, and they are probably closer to democrats than republicans - many are just disheartened democrats - lets offer our support, give them free food/drinks and other stuff to keep them there that way we look like we are for the people, and we can pick up votes in 2012 - Really anything the Democrats can do to get a vote - It is pretty much undeniable that if the election were held today - we would have a new president, and the senate would change hands as well.

As much as the media does not want people to think that is true - the swing states are not currently swing states.....At this point the republicans will have to implode to screw up the 2012 elections...the Democrats see this begging as an opportunity to get a republican to say something stupid and implode, as well as to buy votes, by offering union support and free food and other items.

[RedScare]

It is my opinion that Union = Lazy -however to expand on your point - the unions are only coming in to support the protests, along with other out of work democrats in an effort to do what Fox news did to the tea party - that is to give it a definitive party affiliation for their particular gain. The unions got together and said hey - these guys are there, and they are probably closer to democrats than republicans - many are just disheartened democrats - lets offer our support, give them free food/drinks and other stuff to keep them there that way we look like we are for the people, and we can pick up votes in 2012 - Really anything the Democrats can do to get a vote - It is pretty much undeniable that if the election were held today - we would have a new president, and the senate would change hands as well.

As much as the media does not want people to think that is true - the swing states are not currently swing states.....At this point the republicans will have to implode to screw up the 2012 elections...the Democrats see this begging as an opportunity to get a republican to say something stupid and implode, as well as to buy votes, by offering union support and free food and other items.

It is my opinion that Children of the Wealthy = Lazier than Union Workers.

It is not at all clear that we'd have a new president if the election were today. Not because of anything Obama has done to earn a second term, but that the GOP has cobbled together the most unappealing slate of candidates since...2008.

I won't comment on why the unions are offering support to OWS, since in my experience I have found that SMU grads have a greater understanding of unions than anyone else. However, it is worth noting that OWS has spread to 1,000 cities in the US and Europe, dwarfing any union support offered. It should also be noted that OWS has resisted the Democrats so far, probably because they believe that Democrats are part of the problem, but possibly also because of what they saw happen to the Tea Party once the GOP got their hands on them. But, the bigger reason is likely because OWS has so far resisted drawing up a list of demands, so no one knows exactly whose side they are on.

[infinite_jim]

You should be. Marksmu's visceral reaction to hippies/hipsters is essentially analogous to the one that brought us Nixon in 1970. I don't know what you want, but I'd venture to say that you don't want anything like that.

I'd love a Nixon presidency!

I wish conservatives could get everything they ever wanted.

[TheNiche]

'68. Young whippersnappers!

I stand corrected. I think that my analogy still is a good one, however.

[TheNiche]

I'd love a Nixon presidency!

I wish conservatives could get everything they ever wanted.

I'm confused.

[Mister X]

I'd love a Nixon presidency!

I wish conservatives could get everything they ever wanted.

The best part was when he gave that teary-eyed resignation. The Republican humiliation that followed was also awesome. But the Democrat landslide was also a great result of a Nixon presidency. Except for chaos, the watergate hearings and the permanent distrust of government that remains to this day, the Nixon presidency was a fun little spectacle to witness. I'm sure the next republican president WILL provide another one. EAT THE RICH!

[tamtagon]

Tea Party and OccupyYourCity would dramatically advance the common goal by phasing out 401K and similar retirement/investment strategies.

[TheNiche]

The best part was when he gave that teary-eyed resignation. The Republican humiliation that followed was also awesome. But the Democrat landslide was also a great result of a Nixon presidency. Except for chaos, the watergate hearings and the permanent distrust of government that remains to this day, the Nixon presidency was a fun little spectacle to witness. I'm sure the next republican president WILL provide another one. EAT THE RICH!

Right...because Jimmy Carter, a southern Christian ex-military farmer (just like Rick Perry) is what Democrats wanted.

Oh, and apparently cannibalism is awesome?

[Mister X]

Try and keep up with current events and quit being so literal.

[barracuda]

I'd love a Nixon presidency!

I wish conservatives could get everything they ever wanted.

I too would love to see a conservative like Nixon...one who created the EPA, signed the Clean Air Act, and proposed a national health insurance plan. In fact, I would love to have a conservative party in this country that could challenge the status quo by using facts, logic, and rational discourse instead of lunacy and outrageousness. It's a fantasy of mine...

[TheNiche]

Try and keep up with current events and quit being so literal.

But that's just the thing about people who myopically track current events. They are literal, there exists no sense of humor, and everyone so engaged hopes that the world can be changed the way they want to see it, fears that the world is presently doomed, and has no memory of the past. It is an abysmal and fruitless existence, that of a pawn.

[Ross]

Tea Party and OccupyYourCity would dramatically advance the common goal by phasing out 401K and similar retirement/investment strategies.

Yes, because we don't want anyone to be able to save for retirement. After all, the government will provide.