Metro Changes Rail Plan

[kjb434]

It's not just you. In the end, this plan is great. Lots of good things are going to happen.

[NewMND]

I too think it's a great plan, I c'mon, it could get us a billion dollars. At the same time I understand the objections such as from "713 to 214" (even though I think "214" is the number for calling Dallas, so hopefully he won't get too riled up over something that will no longer affect him) that this isn't what was voted for, but if staying with the plan of what was voted for leads to us having nothing at all, then this definately ends up being a better plan. Something vs Nothing.

[713 To 214]

. . .but if staying with the plan of what was voted for leads to us having nothing at all, then this definately ends up being a better plan. Something vs Nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

. . .and that's the only reason it can be considered better. Something is better than nothing.

As for the rest of you who can not ever see the bad things in a city that need to be corrected, I say to you that you are part of the problem. The good in Houston will take care of itself! It's the bad that needs to be pointed out and corrected. However, you all are so busy trying to prove that Houston "belongs" in some sort of club of recognized cities. That goes without saying. But I submit that Houston will never become a great as you want it to be if all you do is overlook its flaws because you have a chip on your shoulder. . .and as long as I own property in Houston, have many relatives who live in Houston, I work in Houston, and can account for ten plus years of memories as a grade schooler, jr. highschooler, and college student in Houston, I have just as much right to praise AND criticize the city as the rest of you.

If all you want to do is talk about how great Houston is, then create a no bashing Houston thread or something. . .otherwise, let the rest of us, actually interested in doing something about the problems in this city, continue to dialouge about them.

[RedScare]

The fact of the matter is that the old plan WAS something. Most of here believe the new plan, warts and all, despite which politician may profit from it, is BETTER than the something we had before.

The fact that you disagree with most of us here about the benefits of the new plan, changes nothing. Frankly, there was no discussion on this particular thread about how great the city is. There was plenty of debate about wether this plan is an improvement over the old, as well as whether the east/north side got shafted.

Just because we were so brazen not to agree with your supposed superior insight on the matter does not make us wrong or arrogant...it merely means we disagree.

I submit a city of 2 million's "greatness" does not depend on the opinions of a few dozen people debating on an internet forum...further it does not depend on the opinion of a non-resident either. It rides on the backs of those who live there and work there, especially those who DO something to make it great.

We'll let you know when we're done.

[713 To 214]

The fact of the matter is that the old plan WAS something.  Most of here believe the new plan, warts and all, despite which politician may profit from it, is BETTER than the something we had before.

The fact that you disagree with most of us here about the benefits of the new plan, changes nothing.  Frankly, there was no discussion on this particular thread about how great the city is.  There was plenty of debate about wether this plan is an improvement over the old, as well as whether the east/north side got shafted.

Just because we were so brazen not to agree with your supposed superior insight on the matter does not make us wrong or arrogant...it merely means we disagree.

I submit a city of 2 million's "greatness" does not depend on the opinions of a few dozen people debating on an internet forum...further it does not depend on the opinion of a non-resident either.  It rides on the backs of those who live there and work there, especially those who DO something to make it great.

We'll let you know when we're done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Too bad you can't realize that I'm part of WE too!

[NewMND]

Too bad you can't realize that I'm part of WE too!

But it just seems like you'd rather Houston get nothing than get this new plan just to be taking a stand for something or proving a point.

[2112]

Too bad you can't realize that I'm part of WE too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are a part of we, then why do you call yourself "713-to-214"? All I see there is someone trying to say to the rest of us "Hey, Dallas is better, I'm getting out of Houston".

But hey, that's just me.

I knew when I was 15 years old that Houston would be the city for me. I moved the 400 miles to get here at 20, have been here another 20, and plan on staying here in my city. Warts and all.

[bachanon]

not to change the subject 2112 , but me too. i knew when i was 19 that i would never want to live anywhere else. i've seen cities all over the country and then some, and would never put down roots (other than a second home) elsewhere.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

not to change the subject 2112 , but me too.  i knew when i was 19 that i would never want to live anywhere else.  i've seen cities all over the country and then some, and would never put down roots (other than a second home) elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep been to many cities through out the country and parts of the world, after spending 5 months training in NJ(waste dump of the NE), then being here, Houston is up there. Y'all really don't know how great y'all have it. Many people on this deployment just now reallize this and are proud to say they are Houstonians. As a matter of fact we have convinced some people to join us when we get back..............uh...werent we talking about rail?

[zaphod]

BRT sounds cool but i have to wonder if metro will ever actually complete the transition from brt to lrt. Texas in general is bad about putting money aside for something and then using bits and pieces for other things and then before you know it all the money is gone.

And what if we get a anti rail mayor who wants the money to do a half ass job of funding things that need a lot of work like schools.

I mean, pumping more and more money into schools doesnt solve anything. My mom, and her mom, and my fathers mom were all teachers and i know that the biggest thing hurting teachers and education isnt lack of money but bullshitty laws and paper work that translate into tons of paper work and special breaks for low income kids and ones with special needs who really only need discipline and a confident, successful adult to get them to do what is good for them(unlike the vast majority of their parents).

What im saying is that you pump more and more money into schools because it seems to be a quick fix and it seems to be the MORAL decision.

Its similiar to those Civil Defense Scenarios where you have to pick 6 out of 10 people to be in your fallout shelter. There is only one correct answer to stay alive, and it involves leaving a pregnant woman to die, or an elderly man. Obviously it really hurt to have to do something like this in real life, and most people would probably choose to die than do something that cold. Same goes for school funding. No matter if its a huge waste of money, its just wrong and politcal suicide to NOT increase funding.

Sorry if i went off topic, but i had to vent that.

[N Judah]

Now that I've thought about it I'm actually pleased that LRT isn't going to the airports. i think airports would be better served by "heavy" rail like a real subway above-grade (or below). Taking LRT from IAH to downtown would have probably taken at least two and a half hours and a hobby to downtown route would have taken at least an hour and a half. People faced with that decision will usually just take an airport shuttle or cab instead...

[VicMan]

Yeah, they should get to work right now on an airport express using the heavy rail...

Heavy rail would work to Hobby too because the same line can go to Clear Lake and Galveston.

[N Judah]

Or maybe the proposed Galveston commuter rail line can drop by Hobby on its way up to downtown (if it does ever go to downtown).

[HOUCAJUN]

If you are a part of we, then why do you call yourself "713-to-214"?  All I see there is someone trying to say to the rest of us "Hey, Dallas is better, I'm getting out of Houston".

But hey, that's just me.

I knew when I was 15 years old that Houston would be the city for me.  I moved the 400 miles to get here at 20, have been here another 20, and plan on staying here in my city.  Warts and all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point exactly.Try saying something negative about dallas,he'll defend it quickly.but we are not expected to do the same.Hmmm.

[tomv]

I really like the new plan. Everything gets done much sooner, we get commuter rail right off the bat, and most of the politicians seem to be on board. And we still get a second light rail line. Meaning all of this will be connected by light rail, either directly on the line or close enough to walk: four major employment centers (Med Center, Dwtn, Greenway, Galleria), the major shopping district (Galleria), the major nightlife district (Dwntn), most of the large hotels, all 3 main sports facilities, both convention centers, the Museum District, the Theatre District, Midtown, Montrose, 6 universities (UH, UHD, Rice, St Thomas, HCC, and TSU), County Government, City Govenment, Main Library, Hermann Park, it goes on and on...Great for visitors to the city as well as the rest of us.

There's an article in the Fort Bend Star that says that the Fort Bend line may be running within 3 years. Commuters will have wifi access on the train.

Fort Bend Star

The only real negative is no airport connection, but they're already talking about express bus service to Downtown.

And the neighborhoods east ,southeast, and north of Downtown did kinda get the shaft with the express bus instead of rail at least initially. But I would think that people in those neighborhoods who are already regular transit users will be okay with a less flashy technology as long as the service is economical, dependable, and comfortable.

[VelvetJ]

713 to 214, I'm with you. I find it AMAZING so many people can't seem to understand the point you are making, and that this criticism is coming because you DO care about Houston.

Although I do like this new plan, the fact remains, a fairly large number of people went to the polls and were promised something specific NOW after jumping through all sorts of hoops to get it, only to have the rug pulled from under them. Also, not to mention it was more of a blackmailing situation than a compromise. Either do as they say or the city gets nothing. You know, sorta like "build my team a new stadium or we will leave and Houston will get nothing". This is the same type of situation except in this case, there were 2 wolves dressed as sheep, and Houstonians don't even recognize it, therefor will not hold them accountable.

Bill White is taking responsibility but some of us know he was put between a rock and a hard place and really had no choice if the city was to get any funding at all. Sad.

[RedScare]

The Fort Bend article seems to be suggesting a $300 to $400 million extension of the Metro line into Ft Bend County. Metro does not serve Ft Bend, so this would bring the line to those cities in Ft Bend.

This is a good sign on several fronts. Getting the rail closer to people's homes will encourage more ridership, spurring more federal money for extensions. A successful Metro-Ft Bend line will have Montgomery, Galveston and Brazoria Counties looking at ways to make it work in their counties, as well.

This is one of the reasons I believe the new plan is better than the old, regardless of the political arm-twisting involved. These discussions would not have taken place until at least 2015, otherwise.

[kjb434]

The most successful part of this plan is getting all political sides involved. When are all are involved and have a perceived benefit from the construction of these facilities, they will push them faster to be built.

[713 To 214]

Metro takes heat as rail expansion plan moves off course [/size0]

7:18 PM CDT on Monday, June 27, 2005

By Dan Lauck / 11 News

Metro is taking heat that its light rail expansion plan is way off course. Some original supporters said the transit agency has offered them nothing but empty promises.

Future phases to expand the rail could be buried.

They voted for a clean, bright, friendly train. What they're getting instead north and south of downtown is a BRT -- that's 'B' as in 'bus.' . .

TXCN Article with video

[713 To 214]

Metro takes heat as rail expansion plan moves off course

07:18 PM CDT on Monday, June 27, 2005

By Dan Lauck / 11 News

Metro is taking heat that its light rail expansion plan is way off course. Some original supporters said the transit agency has offered them nothing but empty promises.

Future phases to expand the rail could be buried.

They voted for a clean, bright, friendly train. What they're getting instead north and south of downtown is a BRT -- that's 'B' as in 'bus.' . .

TXCN Article with video

[ricco67]

Heavy rail will NOT work for either airport.

The Ridership to support it just isn't there.

Believe it or not, most destinations from the airport go ALL over the city with only about a THOUSAND or so people per day going to and from downtown to the IAH. That's putting a generous number on it.

Either a light rail or a bus/BTR system would work best with it as I have stated a bit earlier.

Ricco

[713 To 214]

Heavy rail will NOT work for either airport.

The Ridership to support it just isn't there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Source(s)?

Believe it or not, most destinations from the airport go ALL over the city with only about a THOUSAND or so people per day going to and from downtown to the IAH.  That's putting a generous number on it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Source(s)?

[ricco67]

My source is the following:

In my business, it is best for me to know the potential of customers that are in a given area and find their needs for business travelers during their stay.

To that end, I also drive a cab as an extention of my business and to help drive up my business.

I talked to other cabbies to get their inputs and did an experiment for 3 weeks on destinations heading to IAH (and HOU) along with some cabbies/limos that I know of.

As a side note, alot of cab drivers don't look at me as a "threat" as I don't use a cab as my main business. But that's another story.

From Magnolia there is an avg. depature of 5 trips PER MORNING to IAH.

Sam Houston: 5 to IAH.

Doubletree: 10-15

Club Quarters: 4

Four Seasons: 20

Hilton Intercontintal: 25

Icon: 4

Hyatt DT: 15-20

This information is rough, but as accurate as I can get, so I figure for every one ride to IAH I am aware of, there are 5 others I'm not.

A poll of Taxi Drivers from IAH are as follows:

20% weekday trips are to downtown.

70% are to the Houston Metro area (Including Katy, Woodlands, Sugarland, Pearland, Clearlake, copperfield, etc...)

10% are those that go to Beaumont, Galveston (Cruise Lines), Huntsville, Victoria, and points all OVER the state. (Longest one I know of is to Corpus)

These percentages are NOT very accurate, I will admit but I have done a considerable amount of time and research to do so.

I've only encountered 1 in one hundred that actually uses the bus from EITHER airport on a daily basis, and they generally go to a place where a friend or relative can more easily pick them up, which is usually the first stop outside the airport grounds.

I hope I answered your questions.

[N Judah]

Once downtown/the inner loop gets developed more that may change, esp. if Houston becomes a convention mecca or whatever.

[RedScare]

Metro takes heat as rail expansion plan moves off course [/size0]

7:18 PM CDT on Monday, June 27, 2005

By Dan Lauck / 11 News

Metro is taking heat that its light rail expansion plan is way off course. Some original supporters said the transit agency has offered them nothing but empty promises.

Future phases to expand the rail could be buried.

They voted for a clean, bright, friendly train. What they're getting instead north and south of downtown is a BRT -- that's 'B' as in 'bus.' . .

TXCN Article with video

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't watched channel 11 since Lisa Foronda started wearing a ring.

[713 To 214]

My source is the following:

. . .I talked to other cabbies to get their inputs and did an experiment for 3 weeks on destinations heading to IAH (and HOU) along with some cabbies/limos that I know of. . .

. . .These percentages are NOT very accurate, I will admit but I have done a considerable amount of time and research to do so. . .

I hope I answered your questions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No offense intended here. However, you can't expect people to take that type of data seriously do you?

[ricco67]

I didn't expect you to, to be honest.

But in a previous life I've done statistics on a variety of subjects, so I figured that a good guestimation was as good as any.

Perhaps YOU have a more accurate bit of research you can lay on us? I'm sticking by my figures until you can dispute it, the only other way to get more accurate numbers is to hand count and poll EVERY single person going to and from IAH.

Ricco

[713 To 214]

Perhaps YOU have a more accurate bit of research you can lay on us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not going to do your research for you. However, I'm CONFIDENT that the answer you seek will be found by starting here.

http://www.ridemetro.org/motion/solutions/resources.asp

I'm sticking by my figures until you can dispute it, the only other way to get more accurate numbers is to hand count and poll EVERY single person going to and from IAH.

Ricco

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. that's not the only way. If you are really interested in knowing the answer (as opposed to just blurting out your personal unsupported opinions), then click the link above. There is no need for you to continue spinning your wheels when METRO (via your tax dollars) has already conducted a study. Don't reinvint the wheel.

[The Voice of University Oaks]

This is an interesting discussion, and I can see both sides of the issue. While I do believe this new plan being proposed is better than the old one for many reasons, it is true that it's not exactly what voters approved in 2003. Bus rapid transit wasn't part of the plan, nor was commuter rail along 290, nor was the link between Main Street and UH, and the Westpark line went all the way to Hillcroft (not South Rice). It's no surprise that people in the inner city are angry. Their turnout is what propelled the 2003 referendum to victory, yet they're not getting what they voted for.

The cynic in me is almost willing to believe that DeLay and Culberson agreed to this new plan on purpose, knowing that the elected officials in the inner city would reject it, in hopes that the end result would be that nothing gets built at all. I certainly hope that is not the case, but there's already been a call from various quarters for a re-vote of this plan. I really don't want Houston to go through another divisive and contentious referendum just two years removed from the previous one, and according to Tuesday's Chronicle various local and congressional officials don't think one is necessary, but I can envision the anti-rail folks filing a lawsuit to try to force a re-vote on the matter.

I'm hopeful that consensus can be reached with inner-city interests to get this project back on track, so to speak; perhaps extending the east-west line a couple of miles to the east to Gulfgate would be enough to mollify some of the angry communities but I don't think that will happen. However, given the serious credibility problems that METRO already suffers from, you really have to wonder why Bill White and Frank Wilson decided to go public with this plan before they even bothered to brief councilmembers or inner-city congressional representives like Gene Green, Sheila Jackson-Lee or Al Green. Did they not anticipate that folks in the inner city would be upset? Did DeLay and Culberson sign off on this plan on the condition that nobody else know about it until it had been announced? What's the deal?

The bottom line is that bus rapid transit in dedicated lanes will, at least initially, provide essentially the same level of service as rail and the decision to lay tracks in the ground will greatly minimize construction disruptions when these lines do meet ridership thresholds that make rail practical. The question is, when will that time come? Seven years? Ten years? Fifteen years? Will it even happen at all? Nobody knows for sure what the political climate in this city will be like so far down the road. Will covering the tracks up with asphalt after they've been laid cause damage to the rails? What about the switches? Will conduits for future electrical and communications lines be put down along with the tracks? These are questions that just can't be answered right now, especially since preliminary engineering has yet to begin on any of these lines.

As far as rail to the airports: it's not going to happen anytime soon. Experience from around the nation has generally shown that ridership on lines to airports is relatively low, and is comprised mostly of airport employees, not air travelers themselves. Although it's nice to have from an intermodal standpoint, you just don't get a lot of bang for your buck. Bush IAH is so far out that the provision of rail service there is prohibitively expensive, and while it would be a lot cheaper to provide service to Hobby because it is closer in it is not policially possible to build rail to one without the other - the draft METRO Solutions plan had rail going to Hobby but not IAH, and Continental CEO Gordon Bethune screamed bloody murder because he thought it would give an unfair advantage to Southwest. The express bus running from the airports to downtown makes more sense in the short term, and will probably end up being what happens.

I'm glad to see that the folks in Fort Bend County are discussing a public-private partnership in order to get the 90A commuter rail line built. As I've said before, there is tremendous political support for this line.

[RedScare]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3243596

There is some understandable complaint from north and east side representatives about the apparent short shrift on the rail plan, but most of them appear to be careful in their wording, so as not to encourage another vote. This would slow everything down again, including the north and east sides.

Interesting, that METRO and the politicians did seem to look at what the referendum required them to do. And it does appear the referendum helped the north and east sides, in that the referendum allows METRO to decide how quickly the rail is built. While BRT is not rail, laying the tracks is progress toward that goal, thereby staying true to referendum language.

As to rail to the airports, I see Hobby long before IAH, due to the short link from UH to get there. IAH may be better served as part of a commuter line to Kingwood, when that becomes feasible. And frankly, Gordon Bethune has gotten so many freebies from the city and federal governments, he should keep his mouth shut.