Oh Crap...Red light election ruled illegal....

[Highway6]

What EXACTLY is your whine about the red light cameras?

Don't want to pay into it? don't run the light. Seems fairly cut and dry to me.

It's big brother, that's the gripe.

Do you want fines mailed to you when a machine catches you jaywalking? Do you want fines mailed to you when you return to the parking meter 5 minutes too late?

Do you ever speed ?

You know how Transtar works, right ? Reads your EZtag and determines how long it takes you to get from one sensor to the next, multiplied and averaged out for every car on the freeway. If they can send you a ticket in the mail for not paying a toll, what's to stop big brother from sending you a fine in the mail every time you speed on the freeway ?

On your typical Houston freeway, non rush-hour, 99% of the cars are going at least slightly over the speed limit. We are a city of speeders. Guess we all should get auto-ticketed since speeding is dangerous, right ? Late for a job interview, pregnant wife to the hospital, kid with a broken arm... none of that matters.. cuz you're breaking the law and deserve that $200 fine in the mail. And every Houstonian does it every day. You sign off on big brother in the name of safety in one place, you open the door for worse !!

Oh, but the revenue stream for the city would be marvelous, and we wouldn't have to have cops doing this job anymore, so I guess it's alright.. right ?

[sevfiv]

I totally get what you're saying but I don't think it's quite as slippery of a slope..

Also, I would imagine that red light running by itself causes more accidents/injury/death than slightly speeding (now excessive speeding and speeding + another factor is another story)..

That being written, I'm not a fan of the cameras at all and I'm not sold on their effectiveness..

[Highway6]

Recycling camera catches you throwing cardboard in the trashcan instead of the green box... ticket in the mail.

Your GMC Onstar notifies HPD when you don't buckle your seatbelt.... ticket in the mail.

Transtar traffic camera's get upgraded.... You change lanes without signaling... ticket in the mail.

You pull into the full grocery store parking and see 1 spot left. The truck to your left does a crappy parking job forcing you to poorly park, and your rear right tire goes over the line into the next spot. Good thing the store has their "double parking cams" activated.... Ticket. In. The. Mail.

Any big brother sucks. Removal of observation and discretion of a human law enforcer is not a good thing.

[Highway6]

I totally get what you're saying but I don't think it's quite as slippery of a slope..

Also, I would imagine that red light running by itself causes more accidents/injury/death than slightly speeding (now excessive speeding and speeding + another factor is another story)..

That being written, I'm not a fan of the cameras at all and I'm not sold on their effectiveness..

It could be that slippery of a slope. We don't even need a contract with an arizona company.. The capability to use Transtar to fine speeders is in place now.. tweak to the software.. and bam, it's possible.

Would it be safer.... Check.

Would it be a massive revenue stream for the city... Check.

Only the political will to propose and implement this is missing.

But it's not just tickets for red-light running... That I can understand. It's also ticket for not coming to a 100% stop when making a right on red. That's ridiculous.

I'm an adult, I'm an alert driver. When I'm approaching a red, I'm checking out the pedestrian signals and looking for pedestrians 50' out. Most of the time, I can easily ascertain before coming to a 100% stop if there are any pedestrians or other vehicular traffic that I should yield too. And if I can't ascertain, I stop till I'm sure. If i slightly roll through a red, and get caught by a cop.. that's my bad luck, but I can stomach it. But having a camera catch you every time !!! And not coming to a complete stop isn't that dangerous.. you're going 1 mph at that point. That's certainly not more dangerous than every driver on the freeway speeding.

[ricco67]

Recycling camera catches you throwing cardboard in the trashcan instead of the green box... ticket in the mail.

Your GMC Onstar notifies HPD when you don't buckle your seatbelt.... ticket in the mail.

Transtar traffic camera's get upgraded.... You change lanes without signaling... ticket in the mail.

You pull into the full grocery store parking and see 1 spot left. The truck to your left does a crappy parking job forcing you to poorly park, and your rear right tire goes over the line into the next spot. Good thing the store has their "double parking cams" activated.... Ticket. In. The. Mail.

Any big brother sucks. Removal of observation and discretion of a human law enforcer is not a good thing.

It could be that slippery of a slope. We don't even need a contract with an arizona company.. The capability to use Transtar to fine speeders is in place now.. tweak to the software.. and bam, it's possible.

Would it be safer.... Check.

Would it be a massive revenue stream for the city... Check.

Only the political will to propose and implement this is missing.

But it's not just tickets for red-light running... That I can understand. It's also ticket for not coming to a 100% stop when making a right on red. That's ridiculous.

I'm an adult, I'm an alert driver. When I'm approaching a red, I'm checking out the pedestrian signals and looking for pedestrians 50' out. Most of the time, I can easily ascertain before coming to a 100% stop if there are any pedestrians or other vehicular traffic that I should yield too. And if I can't ascertain, I stop till I'm sure. If i slightly roll through a red, and get caught by a cop.. that's my bad luck, but I can stomach it. But having a camera catch you every time !!! And not coming to a complete stop isn't that dangerous.. you're going 1 mph at that point. That's certainly not more dangerous than every driver on the freeway speeding.

Sorry guy, but that's just hysterical talk.

Remember, the same things were brought up with cops first started doing Radar, the same with people actually having Driving licenses, Social Security Numbers, etc. People have been harping about the loss of privacy for DECADES.

As far as I'm concerned, this has been an issue of whether Houston can take another financial hit when we need it least(i.e. $20 mil contract violation). The mayor made, in my decision, a good move for the city.

again, the contract comes up for renewal in 2014, make your voice known then we don't have to have such a financial bag around our necks.

[Highway6]

Sorry guy, but that's just hysterical talk.

Remember, the same things were brought up with cops first started doing Radar, the same with people actually having Driving licenses, Social Security Numbers, etc. People have been harping about the loss of privacy for DECADES.

As far as I'm concerned, this has been an issue of whether Houston can take another financial hit when we need it least(i.e. $20 mil contract violation). The mayor made, in my decision, a good move for the city.

again, the contract comes up for renewal in 2014, make your voice known then we don't have to have such a financial bag around our necks.

I'm more arguing against the fact that Big Brother was ever installed in the first place.. I do understand the city is a bind, and i too don't want them to take a 20m hit from a bad contract, but i'm certainly glad they're still fighting this in court as well.

Some of my examples were overboard on purpose to show what opening the door could lead to in theory, but it's not all hysterical.

Speeding is no less dangerous than running red lights.

Having Transtar team with CoH to issue speeding tickets... Why is that unfathomable? Why is that hysterical?

It would be safer.

It would be massive revenue for the city.

The hardware is already in place.

By your previous statement - "We turn it on, we don't have to go to court, we will receive badly needed income, and can move officers to more needed areas." , I have to assume you would gladly welcome this big brother addition to the family.

[RedScare]

Speeding is no less dangerous than running red lights.

Having Transtar team with CoH to issue speeding tickets... Why is that unfathomable? Why is that hysterical?

It would be safer.

It would be massive revenue for the city.

The hardware is already in place.

It won't happen because Transtar and the HCTRA will not allow it to happen. The software only reads the ID number and doesn't save it. I realize that is easily remedied, but look at the consequences. Thousands of tag holders turn in their tags to avoid being detected. HCTRA goes bankrupt as revenue plummets.

No, not quite the revenue stream you envision.

Frankly, the redlight cameras do not bother me nearly as much as the camera on every intersection in downtown. The redlight cameras are fixed to only look at the intersection. The Big Brother cameras are watching our every move downtown. And, at least you can fight your citation if you did not run the light. The City is screwing many of us far worse with other ordinances that cost us tens of thousands of dollars. A $75 citation doesn't faze me.

Oh, and running redlights is many times more dangerous than speeding. Go back to school and learn some physics...or just Google the studies.

[Highway6]

It won't happen because Transtar and the HCTRA will not allow it to happen. The software only reads the ID number and doesn't save it. I realize that is easily remedied, but look at the consequences. Thousands of tag holders turn in their tags to avoid being detected. HCTRA goes bankrupt as revenue plummets.

No, not quite the revenue stream you envision.

Frankly, the redlight cameras do not bother me nearly as much as the camera on every intersection in downtown. The redlight cameras are fixed to only look at the intersection. The Big Brother cameras are watching our every move downtown. And, at least you can fight your citation if you did not run the light. The City is screwing many of us far worse with other ordinances that cost us tens of thousands of dollars. A $75 citation doesn't faze me.

I did not look at it from HCTRA's side, and i agree with most of what you say except i do want to point out that not everyone would turn them in. Some people need the tollroads every day and their eztags would become necessary evils.

But.. taking HCTRA out of the equation, the possibility of escalation still stands. What if this arizona company, or any other company, comes up with a system that does the same thing without the need for EZtags. If we allow one small-fine big brother intrusion in the name of safety and needed revenue, I don't see why we would pass up on any opportunity for bigger-fine auto ticketing if the technology came along... and the technology will come along eventually.

I didn't realize we had so many cameras downtown... just wait till they figure out how to tie in an auto-ticketing system when those cameras catch you jaywalking or illegally parking.

[ricco67]

I did not look at it from HCTRA's side, and i agree with most of what you say except i do want to point out that not everyone would turn them in. Some people need the tollroads every day and their eztags would become necessary evils.

But.. taking HCTRA out of the equation, the possibility of escalation still stands. What if this arizona company, or any other company, comes up with a system that does the same thing without the need for EZtags. If we allow one small-fine big brother intrusion in the name of safety and needed revenue, I don't see why we would pass up on any opportunity for bigger-fine auto ticketing if the technology came along... and the technology will come along eventually.

I didn't realize we had so many cameras downtown... just wait till they figure out how to tie in an auto-ticketing system when those cameras catch you jaywalking or illegally parking.

So, are you saying that we all should have a right to break the law if we know someone isn't watching?

Anarchy.

Edit: wow. Double post!

[The Pragmatist]

So, are you saying that we all should have a right to break the law if we know someone isn't watching?

Anarchy.

Edit: wow. Double post!

I think the fact is that there is a gray area where leniency can be allowed. The law is not always black and white. Circumstances dictate actions. Human rationalization may be needed to understand these kinds of factors. Not that I'm supporting the people who run red lights habitually...

[marmer]

Europe is already full of speed cameras. Auto enthusiast websites have been screaming about them for years. Additionally, there has been talk of rental car agencies accessing ECU and airbag module data as well as GPS data to charge wayward renters and possibly to share information with law enforcement. Modern (by that I mean five years old and newer) vehicles store, or at least monitor, a lot of data about the car's motion.

[RedScare]

I did not look at it from HCTRA's side, and i agree with most of what you say except i do want to point out that not everyone would turn them in. Some people need the tollroads every day and their eztags would become necessary evils.

But.. taking HCTRA out of the equation, the possibility of escalation still stands. What if this arizona company, or any other company, comes up with a system that does the same thing without the need for EZtags. If we allow one small-fine big brother intrusion in the name of safety and needed revenue, I don't see why we would pass up on any opportunity for bigger-fine auto ticketing if the technology came along... and the technology will come along eventually.

I didn't realize we had so many cameras downtown... just wait till they figure out how to tie in an auto-ticketing system when those cameras catch you jaywalking or illegally parking.

I seriously think that you should aim your outrage at the Feds and the Patriot Act, which gives them the right (according to them) to conduct warrantless searches of your home and tap your phone. Instead, you've busted a blood vessel over a camera that shows whether you've run a redlight with the maximum penalty being a $75 fine and no notation on your driving record. In the grand scheme of things, this is a slight inconvenience. Compare that to the hundreds or even thousands of dollars I now must spend in order to attempt to complete my half finished renovation, all so that tourists may marvel at the 90 year old wood with peeling paint on the side of my house. And, I broke no laws.

On the bright side, the contract is up in 2014. The uproar makes it unlikely that the contract will be renewed. If it is, we already know what is required to knock it out...have a recall vote within 60 days. That also applies to Transtar cameras and others. If you can control your urge to run redlights for the next 2 and a half years, I think you'll be OK after that.

[Highway6]

So, are you saying that we all should have a right to break the law if we know someone isn't watching?

So, are you saying you never speed... ever !?!

[ricco67]

So, are you saying you never speed... ever !?!

On the highways (not meaning you), yes.

On city streets? Never. Seriously.

Have I been ticketed? Definitely, but I don't whine when I do get caught.

[Highway6]

So you too think you have the right to break the law if you think nobody is watching.... on the highway.. not me.

Anarchy triumphs.

[ricco67]

So you too think you have the right to break the law if you think nobody is watching.... on the highway.. not me.

Anarchy triumphs.

No, the odds are someone IS watching. Its playing the odds. I get caught, too bad.

If other methods to catch speeders/DUIs and such, then you'd find me driving with a bit of a smaller lead foot.

[sevfiv]

Houston's red-light cameras have been busily snapping pictures of motorists running afoul of traffic laws since the surveillance system was turned back on at 6 p.m. Saturday, but not a single city violation has been issued.

That's because Houston police have not staffed the in-house office that reviews the raw feed of violations provided by American Traffic Solutions cameras stationed at intersections. A city official and a Houston police spokesman said they don't know when Chief Charles McClelland will order the review to begin.

"The violations are being recorded, and they're being put in a (computer) queue, but HPD is still in the process of mobilizing the manpower to actually process the violations because every one of those has to be reviewed,“ explained City Attorney David Feldman

.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7650469.html

[arrodiii]

Tickets are going to start being issued Sunday at 12:01 AM

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2011/07/red-light_camera_fines_start_j.php

[ricco67]

Yay!

[JamesL]

As someone who spends most of his time on city streets on foot, I couldn't be happier. People have been running lights with impunity since the cameras were turned off since they know there's a 0% chance of getting caught.

[takeshi]

As someone who spends most of his time on city streets on foot, I couldn't be happier. People have been running lights with impunity since the cameras were turned off since they know there's a 0% chance of getting caught.

0%? Officers can't write tickets for running a red light?

[Utinga]

Well, the redlight runners, and the traffic lawyers who defend them. Not to slight Paul Kubosh, but I've never agreed with his argument against the citations. Perhaps an argument can be made that the contract is not in the City's best interest, but camera surveillance to catch criminal activity has long been held to be legal. And, this citation is only a civil penalty, much like a parking ticket is against your vehicle, not you, as the driver.

I haven't read the legal opinion, but my guess is that the court said that this is not a valid way to terminate a contract. Anyone know if that is correct?

Help me out here. In Colorado the driver not the vehicle is ticketed. I received two, sent a copy of my licence in with a protest that it was not me it was my twin brother (I have no twin) both were dismissed. I understand they haven't the time or resources to investigate these. Fine!

In Houston I received two speeding and one not a complete stop on right. TMI here, but I let all go to warrants, spent one (first time ever) uncomfortable night in city, and I'm sure you know the rest of the story. All 1,800 dollars worth were dismissed as the officers don't have time to report to court for these. I was a courier driver and could not afford these on my car insurance, that was my justification. Wrong as it may be.

So these red light cameras aren't against ones insurance as well? Civil becomes criminal in Colorado because of the insurance increase in my opinion.

[gwilson]

I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I'll rattle of my list of issues with allowing these red-light cameras. Some are Constitutional, others are safety related, others are just based in what I feel is right and wrong.

Off we go...

First, the cameras violate my right to due process.

Second, I do not get to confront my accuser.

Third, the cameras don't work. I know several people who were in the process of making legal traffic maneuvers but were ticketed anyway (legal right-on-red turns for example).

Fourth, safety. More than once I've been startled by the flashes going off while driving. At 610 and Westheimer, the flashes have caused two accidents that I know people involved in them. Near my home, my father also ended up curbing his car because the flash not only scared him causing him to flinch, but made him unable to see momentarily causing him to curb the car which resulted in a blown out tired and scratched rim (plus possible mechanical damage).

Fifth, accidents are caused by people trying to beat the cameras. There have been studies showing more accidents at intersections with cameras, caused by "beaters" as well as the flashes. There have been conflicting studies showing the intersections are safer. I don't know who to trust frankly. The university or non-profit that does the study or the company with a vested interest in keeping the cameras up.

Sixth, they are wrong. They have been put up under the guise of public safety, but in the end, the ultimate goal is revenue. So the city uses tax payer dollars to pay for and install, maintain and operate technology who's sole purpose is to fleece the tax payer. It is somehow ok because it is supposedly only bad people who run red lights? No.

There are other reasons, but in the end, the one that matters is the voters of Houston do not want them. They proved this, voted them out and now the city counsel has taken it upon themselves to ignore the voters (the judge's decision did say that the vote wasn't valid because it violated the city's charter, but there was no order to reactivate the cameras).

I could be convinced to remove my objections to the cameras if certain concessions were made. Such as signage leading up to every intersection with a camera notifying traffic that there is one. Second, that the cameras be adjusted so that they cannot see inside the vehicle (as of now, two photos are taken, some actually shoot inside the vehicle, where I have a reasonable expectation of privacy). Third would be that the cameras be monitored by a qualified police officer. Perhaps five cameras per operator. When a camera is triggered, the officer is notified (he'd be watching them live as well) and a 30 second playback is queued up and played for him so that he can verify the accuracy of any citation written, and he would have to be present in court for all all court dates for those tickets as the accuser/witness. Fourth, the flashes need work. They are too bright right now and too startling. Fifth, better calibration. If you enter the intersection under a yellow light, the cameras will tag you. This is not legitimate. Also, I don't know about others, but I was always told in Driver's Ed that if you cannot stop at an intersection without "shifting the contents of the vehicle" you were supposed to continue through. So perhaps more than two shots are necessary to form a full assessment about whether the charge is legitimate.

In regard to RedScare's commentary about us being more worried about the Patriot Act, you're absolutely right. We should be worried about that. That does not mean we should not be worried about this as well. There is a perfectly valid "slippery slope" argument here (one of the few places it applies). If we allow these cameras, what will we allow next? Speed cameras are already in use in numerous places in this country, and those are wrong wrong wrong a well. One of the primary purposes of a police car on the side of the road manning a speed trap is deterrence, not just revenue. Revenue is supposed to be tertiary. A bi-product of the deterrent and safety measure if unheeded. It is a short step from these cameras to cameras that can and will be used to track citizens (check Las Vegas for example). We already have HPD cars with a camera that reads and runs every license plate it sees, without any cause to do so.

Liberties are taken most effectively in increments, not in fell swoops.

[sevfiv]

Thank you for posting your thoughts...you bring up a lot of good points. (and welcome back...?!)

[skwatra]

I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I'll rattle of my list of issues with allowing these red-light cameras. Some are Constitutional, others are safety related, others are just based in what I feel is right and wrong.

First off I agree with you for the most part, this is just a revenue generator and questionable on affect to public safety. But i don't agree with all your points...

First, the cameras violate my right to due process.

Aren't these just treated as any other non-moving violation? You can appeal them.

Second, I do not get to confront my accuser.

The City is your accuser, and you can confront them.

Third, the cameras don't work. I know several people who were in the process of making legal traffic maneuvers but were ticketed anyway (legal right-on-red turns for example).

I've made several right turns on red and no had any problems. I only know two people that have gotten tickets and they were legitimate.

I also was creeping at 4am on my way to work, basically let go of my brake when i saw the cross street go yellow with no one within miles. the flash went off, but i didn't get a ticket. they check the speed for every incident before generating a citation.

Fourth, safety. More than once I've been startled by the flashes going off while driving. At 610 and Westheimer, the flashes have caused two accidents that I know people involved in them. Near my home, my father also ended up curbing his car because the flash not only scared him causing him to flinch, but made him unable to see momentarily causing him to curb the car which resulted in a blown out tired and scratched rim (plus possible mechanical damage).

there are a 1000 other distractions while driving i would say are worse, maybe your area has some ridiculous flashes but the ones i have seen are not startling at all.

Fifth, accidents are caused by people trying to beat the cameras. There have been studies showing more accidents at intersections with cameras, caused by "beaters" as well as the flashes. There have been conflicting studies showing the intersections are safer. I don't know who to trust frankly. The university or non-profit that does the study or the company with a vested interest in keeping the cameras up.

Interesting, you can beat them? that's good to know. Exactly how fast do you need to go?

I have the opposite concern, i see people slamming on the brakes when a light turns yellow. Because they are afraid of the red light cameras they are stopping when they shouldn't and causing accidents.

Sixth, they are wrong. They have been put up under the guise of public safety, but in the end, the ultimate goal is revenue. So the city uses tax payer dollars to pay for and install, maintain and operate technology who's sole purpose is to fleece the tax payer. It is somehow ok because it is supposedly only bad people who run red lights? No.

Agreed.

[trymahjong]

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/08/22/2011-08-22_redlight_cameras_throughout_nyc_are_bringing_in_52_million_major_cash_from_speed.html

after reading that article I understood why the HPD chief kept lecturing the monthly PIP participants that the severity of the HPD budget crisis was the result of voting down Redlight camera proposal. With these kinds of revenues for NYC I wonder what the potential revenue will be for Houston. . . . . . . . . . and perhaps explain why the Red light cameras will continue.

[ricco67]

http://www.nydailyne...from_speed.html

after reading that article I understood why the HPD chief kept lecturing the monthly PIP participants that the severity of the HPD budget crisis was the result of voting down Redlight camera proposal. With these kinds of revenues for NYC I wonder what the potential revenue will be for Houston. . . . . . . . . . and perhaps explain why the Red light cameras will continue.

Well, in new york, they have the "don't stop in the box" law, that should help substantially with that. But good lord, I can only imagine what kind of headache to go through THOSE photos. They got the manpower, so whatever.

I still want the cameras. Period.

[gwilson]

First off I agree with you for the most part, this is just a revenue generator and questionable on affect to public safety. But i don't agree with all your points...

Aren't these just treated as any other non-moving violation? You can appeal them.

That does not negate the due process argument.

The City is your accuser, and you can confront them.

No, when I get a speeding ticket, if I take it to court, the officer who issued it can be cross examined. The city, or a camera, cannot be.

I've made several right turns on red and no had any problems. I only know two people that have gotten tickets and they were legitimate.

I also was creeping at 4am on my way to work, basically let go of my brake when i saw the cross street go yellow with no one within miles. the flash went off, but i didn't get a ticket. they check the speed for every incident before generating a citation.

I know people who have gotten tickets for them, and I've got no reason to doubt them. It could have to do with placement of the cameras or the triggers. The fact that they happen at all is another strike against them.

there are a 1000 other distractions while driving i would say are worse, maybe your area has some ridiculous flashes but the ones i have seen are not startling at all.

That doesn't mean we should legislate #1,001.

Interesting, you can beat them? that's good to know. Exactly how fast do you need to go?

I have the opposite concern, i see people slamming on the brakes when a light turns yellow. Because they are afraid of the red light cameras they are stopping when they shouldn't and causing accidents.

I didn't say they actually beat them. It doesn't stop dumb people from doing dumb things though.

The establishment of a precedence is the scariest part of this.

[gwilson]

Thank you for posting your thoughts...you bring up a lot of good points. (and welcome back...?!)

Thanks for the thanks. lol

I check in from time to time. I've been suffering from some health issues lately that have kept me from poking around forums. I've also been dealing with some pretty serious legal problems which are finally getting sorted it seems. It isn't ideal, but at least I might be avoiding jail, which is always a plus. lol It will teach me not to trust people who have proven multiple times in the past that they aren't worthy of my trust.

[Utinga]

It could be that slippery of a slope. We don't even need a contract with an arizona company.. The capability to use Transtar to fine speeders is in place now.. tweak to the software.. and bam, it's possible.

Would it be safer.... Check.

Would it be a massive revenue stream for the city... Check.

Only the political will to propose and implement this is missing.

But it's not just tickets for red-light running... That I can understand. It's also ticket for not coming to a 100% stop when making a right on red. That's ridiculous.

I'm an adult, I'm an alert driver. When I'm approaching a red, I'm checking out the pedestrian signals and looking for pedestrians 50' out. Most of the time, I can easily ascertain before coming to a 100% stop if there are any pedestrians or other vehicular traffic that I should yield too. And if I can't ascertain, I stop till I'm sure. If i slightly roll through a red, and get caught by a cop.. that's my bad luck, but I can stomach it. But having a camera catch you every time !!! And not coming to a complete stop isn't that dangerous.. you're going 1 mph at that point. That's certainly not more dangerous than every driver on the freeway speeding.

Could not agree more with you. I was on the back of my friends scooter when he was red-camera-caught 'racing' through a right on red at about 2 miles an hour. Yes I know we both could have been killed if not extra observant of other drivers and those pesky peds. Also, I know there are those who will say "we shouldn't have to pay tax dollars for your injuries if you are uninsured, that is one of the reason we support this." Agreed! As long as I am able to enter your home to see your coverage and if you are a smoker an unhealthy "meat" eater, you're watching "reality" television and not educating yourself towards a better tomorrow, rearing your children appropriately etc. Can "we" now tell you "our" tax dollars are not going to support your unhealthy lifestyle choices nor any towards your children, as you are not educating them to the degree "we' see fit?