Hanover West Gray: Multifamily At 1340 W. Gray St.

[King Owl]

I just noticed a "request for variance" sign in front of the Tavern Bar, which is located at West Gray and Waugh. The Hanover Company's name is on the sign, and they're requesting a 15' setback, and it also said they're going to build something "multi-family".

Does anybody have any additional information on this? Could it be a mid-rise? or a high-rise? or simply another apartment complex? Hanover does some nice stuff, so I'm curious.

[lockmat]

Nice find, here's the listing for it. Includes more than just the tavern, it's almost the entire block.

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16339311/northeast-corner-of-West-Gray-and-Waugh-1340-West-Gray-Houston-TX/

[kdog08]

Probably a 4 story apartment complex

[ricco67]

I'll be kinda' sad to see the Tavern go, they had great steak nights, but I hope they build something worth while, though.

The odds of being something "urban" are probably low, though. either way, this will be a nice boost for the local businesses in the area once it goes up.

[The Pragmatist]

A quick search netted this article:

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/2011/03/tavern_on_west_gray_could_soon.php

"Neither Joseph Martin nor the Hanover Company returned phone calls inquiring into the alleged negotiations, but our anonymous tipster claimed that if the acquisition went through, it would be "plus or minus six months" before the Tavern was torn down to make way for a new apartment building."

[lockmat]

Should we share this with Swamplot to see if they can find out anything more? I'm tempted to, but I think they're stealing some of HAIF's audience.

[TheNiche]

Should we share this with Swamplot to see if they can find out anything more? I'm tempted to, but I think they're stealing some of HAIF's audience.

Gus is usually very good about linking to HAIF and driving traffic to the source.

Would you prefer that he gets tipped off from some other source, or an anonymous source? It's not like he isn't going to figure out about this project eventually.

[20thStDad]

Ah, the Tavern. Used to could walk there, and did many a time. Probably for the best that it goes back into the void now that I'm no longer in the hood or allowed to walk to bars. It's been under 10 years...because I moved here 10 years ago and my first weekend we went to Blue Agave at that location. Good memories though. Betting my buddy that the bar area was not elevated, she really was 6'7". Trying to eat 100 wings between 2 of us on 25 cent wing night (and failing...but we got 80). Rocking an NTN trivia round enough to be #3 nationally...one time.

[lockmat]

Gus is usually very good about linking to HAIF and driving traffic to the source.

Would you prefer that he gets tipped off from some other source, or an anonymous source? It's not like he isn't going to figure out about this project eventually.

He used to give credit to tipsters and HAIF but he hasn't really the past year or so. Usually when I give him info I use a haif link, but he does not normally credit it.

[ricco67]

He used to give credit to tipsters and HAIF but he hasn't really the past year or so. Usually when I give him info I use a haif link, but he does not normally credit it.

That's not entirely true. He has given HAIF (and gave me photo credit) for the Hess turbine thingie.

Which reminds me.....any word on the missing turbines?

[DrLan34]

That's not entirely true. He has given HAIF (and gave me photo credit) for the Hess turbine thingie.

Which reminds me.....any word on the missing turbines?

not yet, i've been looking for updates as well. Most of the contractors are working on the inside of the building so i haven't had a chance to ask anyone

[lockmat]

That's not entirely true. He has given HAIF (and gave me photo credit) for the Hess turbine thingie.

Which reminds me.....any word on the missing turbines?

When he first started the blog, he would give credit to me and others by first name. I usually told him that he didn't need to, though. He used to give more credit to haif, too, but only now if haif is the first or only source. I don't really care if he gives me credit or not, like I said, but just stating a fact, I've given him lots and lots of tips, some which I've learned on my own and others I got from HAIF, and the past year or so he hasn't given as much credit. I know b/c i'll reference haif and no credit is given.

[dbigtex56]

A quick search netted this article:

it would be "plus or minus six months" before the Tavern was torn down to make way for a new apartment building."

I'm struggling to understand this statement. In a parallel universe, The Tavern may have been torn down last October?

[Trae]

Here's what's going there:

Houston’s own Hanover Company wants to build this 5-story apartment complex on the current site of the Tavern on Gray, just east of the shopping district that extends along West Gray to Shepherd. And it’s hoping to get a variance from the planning commission that would allow the buildings to have smaller setbacks than current regulations allow: 15 ft. along Waugh (where 25 would otherwise be required) and just 5 ft. along West Gray (otherwise they’d need 15). Sure, the Hanover West Gray project would have 2 floors of parking (one of them underground) underneath 4 residential floors — but the extremely persuasive variance request kinda makes it hard not to wish the place had conditions that were less — you know, tough and urban:

http://swamplot.com/apartment-building-replacing-tavern-on-gray-wont-have-any-retail-but-really-wants-to-hug-the-street-anyway/2011-04-21/#more-28023

[DrLan34]

Here's what's going there:

http://swamplot.com/...-21/#more-28023

great news, thanks for posting

[tanith27]

Which reminds me.....any word on the missing turbines?

The blades went down in 45mph winds and were engineered to withstand well over 100. Hess wanted nothing less than a full guarantee that that will never happen again and if there's any chance, even slight, then keep the blades off. The blades are still down so not sure what the end result will be. The LEED certification will not be altered no matter. Folks move in in June.

[ricco67]

great news, thanks for posting

Not so great.

While I'm glad the project is going up, I'm somewhat saddened that it won't have street level businesses. The opportunity for the area is too great to let something like this slip by, but there it is.

[kylejack]

Their setback waiver should be DENIED. If there's no street-level retail, I want the standard wide walkable sidewalk.

[DrLan34]

Retail will naturally come when the density demands it. I love mixed use as well but this development is infinitely better than the tavern (not knockin the bar but I prefer higher density development).

[ricco67]

Retail will naturally come when the density demands it. I love mixed use as well but this development is infinitely better than the tavern (not knockin the bar but I prefer higher density development).

While the area may not be very dense, but with the proper businesses, the people in the area will go to it anyway. The size of the development (anyone has numbers) and the local population would be able to support a small convenience store.

Make it classy and open up a nice washateria/wash fold place. It would probably do damned good business.

[Trae]

While the area may not be very dense, but with the proper businesses, the people in the area will go to it anyway. The size of the development (anyone has numbers) and the local population would be able to support a small convenience store.

Make it classy and open up a nice washateria/wash fold place. It would probably do damned good business.

Yeah, those are very good ideas. The basics. Maybe throw in a Subway or Quiznos for good measure. They could do it.

[RedScare]

Not so great.

While I'm glad the project is going up, I'm somewhat saddened that it won't have street level businesses. The opportunity for the area is too great to let something like this slip by, but there it is.

Their setback waiver should be DENIED. If there's no street-level retail, I want the standard wide walkable sidewalk.

I hate to pick on you two, as you are a couple of my favorite posters, but....

....OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

This parcel is surrounded by retail. Have you never seen or been to River Oaks Plaza? It is DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET! Additionally, only a few blocks to the norh is a brand new Whole Foods being built. There is retail to the north, south, east and west of this parcel. Just what, exactly, are we missing out on that is not provided within easy walking distance of this parcel? Add, other than the 222 residents of this apartment complex, who exactly would walk to the Subway or dry cleaner that you envision? Certainly not me, or the two of you, since none of us live within walking distance of this corner.

Look, I am a big fan of walkability and bikability. I love having at least 11 restaurants (5 more coming), 6 coffee shops, 6 bars (need more), a bike trail and even 2 dry cleaners within 4 blocks of my house. In fact, I am berated for applauding these new amenities in my Heights neighborhood, where some complain about anything less than 75 years old. Mixed use is a nice term, but it should be understood before it is swung like a mace at anyone who dares not force residences and businesses into the same building. In a neighborhood of predominately single family homes, what is lost if the retail establishments are next door or across the street from the apartments? How many people could reasonably walk to a mixed use establishment? On this corner, not many. Perhaps a couple hundred, in addition to the apartment residents.

Could that walking population support any retail establishment? No. Not even close. So, what is the point? Other than looking at it as we drive by, none.

Contrast this layout with downtown. Land is at a premium. There is not room for a standalone parking lot. Additionally, there are numerous (tens of thousands) residents and workers within blocks of any particular spot. Businesses crammed in a corner of a building, garage or tunnel can survive or thrive because of the thousands of pedestrians nearby. Mixed use WORKS here. It does not work in a standard neighborhood grid.

Please stop with the mixed use cries where it will not work.

EDIT: Oh, the sidewalk is placed in the City Right of Way. It is not impacted by even an inch if the setback is reduced to zero.

EDIT #2: There is a dry cleaner about 150 feet away on W. Gray, and another one about 250 feet away. Is that close enough for our urban walkers? The Subway, admittedly, is about 3 to 4 blocks up Waugh, across from the new Whole Foods, but the Luby's is right across the street, as is Cafe Express. Will those do? Or must they be in the parking garage?

[kylejack]

I hate to pick on you two, as you are a couple of my favorite posters, but....

....OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

This parcel is surrounded by retail. Have you never seen or been to River Oaks Plaza? It is DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET! Additionally, only a few blocks to the norh is a brand new Whole Foods being built. There is retail to the north, south, east and west of this parcel. Just what, exactly, are we missing out on that is not provided within easy walking distance of this parcel? Add, other than the 222 residents of this apartment complex, who exactly would walk to the Subway or dry cleaner that you envision? Certainly not me, or the two of you, since none of us live within walking distance of this corner.

Look, I am a big fan of walkability and bikability. I love having at least 11 restaurants (5 more coming), 6 coffee shops, 6 bars (need more), a bike trail and even 2 dry cleaners within 4 blocks of my house. In fact, I am berated for applauding these new amenities in my Heights neighborhood, where some complain about anything less than 75 years old. Mixed use is a nice term, but it should be understood before it is swung like a mace at anyone who dares not force residences and businesses into the same building. In a neighborhood of predominately single family homes, what is lost if the retail establishments are next door or across the street from the apartments? How many people could reasonably walk to a mixed use establishment? On this corner, not many. Perhaps a couple hundred, in addition to the apartment residents.

Could that walking population support any retail establishment? No. Not even close. So, what is the point? Other than looking at it as we drive by, none.

Contrast this layout with downtown. Land is at a premium. There is not room for a standalone parking lot. Additionally, there are numerous (tens of thousands) residents and workers within blocks of any particular spot. Businesses crammed in a corner of a building, garage or tunnel can survive or thrive because of the thousands of pedestrians nearby. Mixed use WORKS here. It does not work in a standard neighborhood grid.

Please stop with the mixed use cries where it will not work.

EDIT: Oh, the sidewalk is placed in the City Right of Way. It is not impacted by even an inch if the setback is reduced to zero.

EDIT #2: There is a dry cleaner about 150 feet away on W. Gray, and another one about 250 feet away. Is that close enough for our urban walkers? The Subway, admittedly, is about 3 to 4 blocks up Waugh, across from the new Whole Foods, but the Luby's is right across the street, as is Cafe Express. Will those do? Or must they be in the parking garage?

Please note that I didn't make a mixed use cry. They want a special exception to the setback requirements and I don't think their project is good enough that we should grant it. I want the standard sidewalk and the standard setback.

[RedScare]

Please note that I didn't make a mixed use cry. They want a special exception to the setback requirements and I don't think their project is good enough that we should grant it. I want the standard sidewalk and the standard setback.

Please note that the standard setbacks are suburban style setback ordinances. They have requested a setback more in keeping with dense urban areas. Your demand is that they either put in features that will not fit this particular property, or else conform to the suburban rules that you and I both oppose. These setback rules have been a major point of contention in making Midtown more dense and urban. I am at a loss to understand why you would insist on suburban building patterns...other than spite. Kind of a cutting nose and spiting face thing.

Out of curiosity, since you've now brought it up twice, how much of a "standard sidewalk" is built on the private property? The setback is from the ROW, so clearly these "standard sidewalks" must be built more than 5 feet onto the private property. How far, and where is the ordinance? I ask because I want to know if I am at risk of having to give up some of my property if the City decides to install "standard sidewalks" in front of my house. The current one fits completely within the ROW.

[ricco67]

I hate to pick on you two, as you are a couple of my favorite posters, but....

....OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

You're quite right, I was just referring to something a tad smaller. To be honest, I was struggling to remember what WAS nearby that wasn't a duplicate of what was already around.

Maybe they could put a tavern on the ground level.

I would imagine that the streets of W. Grey and Waugh would be enough of a barrier (psychological and real) that would find something a tad closer.

Sorta' like the reasoning there is a starbucks EVERYWHERE: You don't have to go out of your way to get a coffee, but if one is on the way, why not? Remember, we have *3* Starbuck's on a corner nearby, TWO pizza joints (Pinks and Dominos), and a ton of nail salons and dry cleaners. They all seem to be doing quite well even though they are fairly close in proximity to each other.

Don't underestimate the ability of people to be lazy.

[kylejack]

Please note that the standard setbacks are suburban style setback ordinances. They have requested a setback more in keeping with dense urban areas. Your demand is that they either put in features that will not fit this particular property, or else conform to the suburban rules that you and I both oppose. These setback rules have been a major point of contention in making Midtown more dense and urban. I am at a loss to understand why you would insist on suburban building patterns...other than spite. Kind of a cutting nose and spiting face thing.

Out of curiosity, since you've now brought it up twice, how much of a "standard sidewalk" is built on the private property? The setback is from the ROW, so clearly these "standard sidewalks" must be built more than 5 feet onto the private property. How far, and where is the ordinance? I ask because I want to know if I am at risk of having to give up some of my property if the City decides to install "standard sidewalks" in front of my house. The current one fits completely within the ROW.

Obviously it is their choice to fill the setback with either sidewalk or landscaping, both of which would be nice. Their application is also kind of silly. It talks about pedestrians being safer because of all the people inside the building who will be able to easily see them.

[RedScare]

Actually, there is abundant evidence that densely populated areas are safer. While a 10 foot setback likely would have no effect, the point that pedestrians are more visible is valid. But, then again, 15 foot setbacks in a populated area is even sillier. I cannot imagine why you would support such a density-killing rule.

I am curious why anyone would fill a setback with sidewalk when there is already a nice new wide sidewalk next to the street within the city's right of way? In fact, doing so would not be very environmentally friendly. Usually, those setbacks are filled with parking lots.

I have this strange feeling that you still do not understand what a setback is, and where it sits within the streetscape. Your arguments seem to contradict your usual pro-density stance.

[sheeats]

I'm struggling to understand this statement. In a parallel universe, The Tavern may have been torn down last October?

"'Plus or minus,' used to indicate the precision of an approximation (as in "The result is 10 ± 0.3", meaning the result is somewhere between 10 - 0.3, that is, 9.7, and 10 + 0.3, that is, 10.3)."

So, it could be torn down in exactly six months, or it could be torn down in five months, or it could be torn down in seven months.

Either way, I've still got mixed feelings about a high density complex like this when there's already really awful traffic at that intersection. Hoping the City will fix the traffic signal there if this goes through...

[TheNiche]

Either way, I've still got mixed feelings about a high density complex like this when there's already really awful traffic at that intersection. Hoping the City will fix the traffic signal there if this goes through...

If you lived there, you'd be home by then. That is, instead of continuing to endure (and generate) that traffic congestion.

Another thing. Whereas office buildings generate a huge quantity of traffic twice a day, and retail generates moderate traffic throughout the day, residences have many fewer physical occupants per square foot and those occupants' traffic patterns are much more random.

[DrLan34]

I hope that these buildings do not get held up by those scared of traffic... this is way inside the loop and i'm not sure what areas are better for high density apartments

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/sarnoff/7548587.html