Houston denied final retired space shuttle

[LTAWACS]

Bear in mind that Congress didn't get to decide; Congress got to react. The decision was made by bureaucrats hired by administrators that were appointed by the President.

We need to make them pay.

[KinkaidAlum]

Hopefully, this will lead to a debate that will offer a counter to this stupid Tea Party movement. Likely it will just fold into the typical political pissing match instead.

The real outrage shouldn't be there because some retired shuttle went to the "elite coasts." It should be there because our federal, state, and local governments are scaling back R&D money all across the board. It's space travel. It's health science. It's technology. It's infrastructure. It's teachers. It's the fact that we are retiring a shuttle with no real plan to try and accomplish something just as grand. That's simply un-American!

Our nation needs to WAKE UP. We can't rely on the private sector to want to fund things that aren't inherently profitable but are wildly important. I am tired of people piling on with their hatred of all things "government." That too should be un-American. Sure, it's fine to hate what we currently have because it flat out sucks and doesn't serve the interests of We The People, but that doesn't mean we should give up on government.

NASA is a perfect example of potentially GOOD government. There are others out there like our parks, public schools and universities, the NIH, PBS, etc... but all of these things are going to be threatened if we don't stop electing total buffoons to run things in D.C. and that includes members of both parties.

[TheNiche]

Hopefully, this will lead to a debate that will offer a counter to this stupid Tea Party movement. Likely it will just fold into the typical political pissing match instead.

The real outrage shouldn't be there because some retired shuttle went to the "elite coasts." It should be there because our federal, state, and local governments are scaling back R&D money all across the board. It's space travel. It's health science. It's technology. It's infrastructure. It's teachers. It's the fact that we are retiring a shuttle with no real plan to try and accomplish something just as grand. That's simply un-American!

Our nation needs to WAKE UP. We can't rely on the private sector to want to fund things that aren't inherently profitable but are wildly important. I am tired of people piling on with their hatred of all things "government." That too should be un-American. Sure, it's fine to hate what we currently have because it flat out sucks and doesn't serve the interests of We The People, but that doesn't mean we should give up on government.

NASA is a perfect example of potentially GOOD government. There are others out there like our parks, public schools and universities, the NIH, PBS, etc... but all of these things are going to be threatened if we don't stop electing total buffoons to run things in D.C. and that includes members of both parties.

That's nice and all, but this thread is about retired space shuttles.

[skwatra]

I'm guessing you just mean Texas leadership, the ones who failed to bring it here? This thread has been interesting to me. As someone who did not grow up in Houston, no, I don't have an appreciation for how big of a role Houston played in the space program. To most outsiders, I bet NASA is more Florida, and Houston is just where mission control is (and that only based on 1 line from a movie they saw 15 years ago). As I read this thread, yes, clearly the shuttle should have come here. But if you asked me before I read the thread, I could care less. Most people probably have even less of an idea of Houston's importance to the space program, so they care even less than me.

Not sure where you're getting this from. NASA is completely associated to Houston to people around the world. When traveling through Europe (and Japan and India to a lesser extent) I found if I mention Texas i got the cowboy response. I started saying only 'Houston' and NASA was the number one response. When I had a German friend who was interning in dallas for the summer and her sister came to visit for a week, i asked her if she was planning to come see me and she said "of course, i can't come all the way to the States and not see Houston, we have a problem"

It may be one line in a movie but its a pretty popular world known one.

For people in the States i feel they associate Houston with three things: oil, the Med Center, and NASA.

You ask people where the shuttle launches and they say Florida, but don't know where in many cases. How many people do you know that have been to Disney World but never to Cape Canaveral? Yes, Florida gets a lot of press for the spectacular launches, and they deserve it (as well as the shuttle). But IMO Houston is more associated with the Space Program in general, especially given ISS, the only foreseeable future, is complete based from here.

[dbigtex56]

As someone who did not grow up in Houston, no, I don't have an appreciation for how big of a role Houston played in the space program. To most outsiders, I bet NASA is more Florida, and Houston is just where mission control is (and that only based on 1 line from a movie they saw 15 years ago).

Not sure where you're getting this from. NASA is completely associated to Houston to people around the world. When traveling through Europe (and Japan and India to a lesser extent) I found if I mention Texas i got the cowboy response. I started saying only 'Houston' and NASA was the number one response. When I had a German friend who was interning in dallas for the summer and her sister came to visit for a week, i asked her if she was planning to come see me and she said "of course, i can't come all the way to the States and not see Houston, we have a problem"

It may be one line in a movie but its a pretty popular world known one.

For people in the States i feel they associate Houston with three things: oil, the Med Center, and NASA.

You ask people where the shuttle launches and they say Florida, but don't know where in many cases. How many people do you know that have been to Disney World but never to Cape Canaveral? Yes, Florida gets a lot of press for the spectacular launches, and they deserve it (as well as the shuttle). But IMO Houston is more associated with the Space Program in general, especially given ISS, the only foreseeable future, is complete based from here.

I didn't grow up in Houston, either.

Yet, I cannot imagine how someone wouldn't associate our city with the space program. In every newscast covering the latest space launch (and I've seen plenty - starting with the Mercury program), the astronauts began almost every sentence with the word "Houston".

Houston was the brains; I'm amazed that anyone would question the role our city played.

[LTAWACS]

Thanks to all the buffoons in DC.

[Fringe]

The interview went down from there, as Watson pressed Obama on a major local issue in Texas: NASA's decision not to locate one of the retiring Space Shuttle fleet in the state. "The White House has nothing to do with it," Obama insisted.

When Watson suggested the Obama administration had sent the orbitors to states pivotal to his re-election, the president became visibly irritated. "I just said that was wrong," he said. "I just said that wasn't true."

Obama Interview

[Highway6]

I'll take any chance I can get to bash a Dem administration, but after reading this article by a NASA employee, I'm willing to concede that even if politics were also in play here, City of Houston, our reps in Congress, and esp. Space Center Houston didn't do their job and are *probably* more at fault here... they made it really easy to punish us if politics were at play.

http://blogs.chron.c...tics_for_a.html

The part that really hit home for me was the Strike 3 paragraph on what a piss poor job Space Center Houston does now at displaying what its got. While I haven't been in close to 10 years, my recollection of Space Center Houston was a poorly implemented children's museum that you had to drive 25 miles outside of town to get to. Not impressed. Even had we been awarded the shuttle, I would have been extremely disappointed to have to drive out to Space Center Houston to see it.

In my mind, a winning solution would have been to put the space shuttle up on a pedestal, figuratively speaking, in it's own satellite facility.. not as part of SCH.. with this sleek, glass, modern facility and its one exhibit in the most visible and accessible location they could afford... Herman Park or something. Sure, it would have been pricey..but it beats no shuttle at all. I understand that NASA is down there in Clear Lake and so is the vast majority of the NASA community, but NASA isn't in Houston from a population access standpoint. I'm not sure a win for the NASA community would have equaled a win for Houston. It ticks me off that those in charge of our bid didn't realize that when you're competing against all these other cities without ties to NASA, that they are going to go all out from the tourism standpoint.. and that you are competing against that.

SCH and the City thought way too small.

I do believe Houston should have started with several hundred points in the "ties to NASA and sentimentality" section... but from a tourism perspective, We went into the competition with the precedent of glorified hangars, 25 miles away from the population center. We went into the competition with an uninspired sketchup rendering of an uninspired hangar addition tacked onto the side of SCH. We went into the competition apparently without the realization that for every other city without ties to NASA, this was in part an architecture competition. Is it any wonder we lost ?

VS.

this in the heart of Manhattan

[Fringe]

I have to agree with you there. Took my kids there when they were little and they enjoyed it but I never felt a pressing need to go back or to take out-of-town visitors there.

[20thStDad]

The perfect final resting place has already been established for the shuttle. I don't even know why it is being discussed.

(by Highway6)

[Highway6]

Completely forgot about the ol' BaggyShuttleDerrick.... And that would have been a more serious bid entry than that cr@phole of a sketchup hangar addition.

[TheNiche]

The interview went down from there, as Watson pressed Obama on a major local issue in Texas: NASA's decision not to locate one of the retiring Space Shuttle fleet in the state. "The White House has nothing to do with it," Obama insisted.

When Watson suggested the Obama administration had sent the orbitors to states pivotal to his re-election, the president became visibly irritated. "I just said that was wrong," he said. "I just said that wasn't true."

Interesting. NASA is a function of the executive branch of government, yet the Presidency has nothing to do with it. How does that work!?

I myself don't think that Obama gave any consideration to this issue from a political standpoint. Otherwise Ohio would've gotten a shuttle. His frustrated response seems plausibly genuine. I'm sure that there are bigger things occupying his mind, after all. He should've said that and brushed off the issue entirely.

[LTAWACS]

We should vote out all of our bungling politicos as this is proof they cannot do the job.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

We should vote out all of our bungling politicos as this is proof they cannot do the job.

AMEN!

Let's get a new crop of bungling politicos that can't do the job!!!

OH wait, we've been doing that every 4 years in recent decades...

[Highway6]

I couldn't decide which thread to put this in.. so I'll just link to it here... but I pulled the visitor counts for various Houston and other tourist attractions to build the case for why SCH should have considered opening a satellite facility for the Shuttle in our Museum District.

[livincinco]

I couldn't decide which thread to put this in.. so I'll just link to it here... but I pulled the visitor counts for various Houston and other tourist attractions to build the case for why SCH should have considered opening a satellite facility for the Shuttle in our Museum District.

I understand your point, but I'm really ok without Houston being a major tourist destination. I've lived in other places that were and there's a lot of downside to trying to conduct your regular life while surrounded by visitors. I found that I was going out of my way to avoid the areas that drew a lot of visitors because the inconvenience was so great.

IMO, this is a good city to live and do business, let's leave it at that and let the tourists go elsewhere.

[KinkaidAlum]

I would have liked to have seen a bold proposal as well.

How about placing the shuttle in the Astrodome? Suspend it from the ceiling. Turn the entire place into a space museum. Pay homage to the Astros and the original Dome Days and bring back the vendors in spacesuits. The Dome is just sitting there waiting...

[TheNiche]

I would have liked to have seen a bold proposal as well.

How about placing the shuttle in the Astrodome? Suspend it from the ceiling. Turn the entire place into a space museum. Pay homage to the Astros and the original Dome Days and bring back the vendors in spacesuits. The Dome is just sitting there waiting...

That's an awesome idea. And while you're at it, you should buy the Astros and move them back into the Astrodome, where they belong.

[2112]

An interesting update: As part of the layoff/RIF for Shuttle workers here at JSC, there is a “dismantling” effort to, well, dismantle the Shuttle Avionics Integration Lab, which as you may recall, is a full engineering, full scale shuttle simulator, but without wing or engines. It has a real cockpit and all the avionics exposed – the fuselage is full length, but you see no outside skin. You instead see all the wires, cables, and all the “innards”. Someone brought up this: “maybe after the dismantling, it could then be re-built inside Space Center Houston”. It’s all just talk right now, and who knows if this will ever really happen. And I suspicion it could never be done in time, as the dismantling will begin probably this summer, and it would cost additional money. But my opinion is it would be better than nothing for our city. It would give insight to visitors of the REAL workings of the Shuttle, which to me, is more important as that is how the thing actually works. This would showcase the real role that Houston has – engineering all the complexity that is underneath the hood. Probably a long shot. But I hope it happens, not only because it would temporarily delay some layoffs, but also because it would give a tiny bit acknowledgment to Houston’s role. I know it would definitely mean a lot to those who worked on it for so many years and decades.

-2112

[2112]

...oh, by the way. Last week there was an official corporate announcment...1,200 Shuttle layoffs in Florida, and 800 in Houston. All Space Shuttle related. 800 in Houston is by far the largest RIF I have ever seen at once. But I think there has been close to 3,000 during the last 1.5 years, but those were spread out over time. This new one will be staged in a 3 week period if I read it correctly. Probably because they can't process that many people at the same time.

Hopefully, the year 2012 will see an upswing in new work. I keep my hopes up for the new heavy-lift rocket, although I dont know what part JSC will actually get to work. Either way, I try to be hopefull as that keeps my sanity intact! Beer helps, too

-2112

[Montrose1100]

To say this was a political move is absolutely re-donk-ulous. Giving the shuttles to LA & NY makes sense. Yeah i'm upset we didnt get one, but i'm not gonna cry over it.

A lot of states and politicians are jealous of Texas for being successful. Selling the shuttles to big museums is by no means a slap in the face. Shutting down JSC would be one, so let's knock on wood.

[2112]

You might recall in a past post I mentioned the Houston based Space Shuttle that never flies, but is a very high fidelity electrical replica - in fact the first prototype - to which the real shuttles were built. In that post I mentioned some detail of this place, the Shuttle Avionics Integration Lab, or SAIL. Here is a cool article from ABC. It's a pretty good write up on it.

LINK:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/space-shuttle-atlantis-retires-ghost-shuttle-houston-johnson/story?id=14084176

[2112]

I have some positive news on this topic. I just found out that the SAIL (Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory) - the prototype of the Shuttle here at JSC/Houston...the first one to which the real shuttles were eventually built to....will not be dismantled, but instead will become part of the Space Center Houston tour...it will live on!!! If you dont remember my post early on in this thread, this is the engineering and electrical "iron bird". It is in fact the first Space Shuttle prototype. ALso, the article in the above post has a good write up on this. My wife has worked there 23 years...and of course is being layed off along with the 2000 shuttle workforce. But we are both happy that the laboratory will live on as a historical portrait to the complexity of the shuttle. Yea, I know, a real shuttle in Houston would have been the right thing to have bestowed to us. But preserving the SAIL lab is at least something to be proud of, and a reminder of Houston's role in the design and engineering that went on behind the scenes.

[Specwriter]

I have some positive news on this topic. I just found out that the SAIL (Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory) - the prototype of the Shuttle here at JSC/Houston...the first one to which the real shuttles were eventually built to....will not be dismantled, but instead will become part of the Space Center Houston tour...it will live on!!! . . . we are both happy that the laboratory will live on as a historical portrait to the complexity of the shuttle. Yea, I know, a real shuttle in Houston would have been the right thing to have bestowed to us. But preserving the SAIL lab is at least something to be proud of, and a reminder of Houston's role in the design and engineering that went on behind the scenes.

This is good news and, to repeat an earlier comment, keeping the SAIL will mean more to those who worked on the Shuttle program than keeping a non-functioning mock-up. Take that Senator Schumer - we remember your nasty comments at the time the announcement was made that Enterprise would go to New York. It would have been nice if you could have taken that gift with a little more grace and class.

My wife has also worked for NASA contractors for the last 23 years (today is her birthday, by the way) but her work has focused on the research and experiments that have gone on in the Shuttle and International Space Station. Even so, over the years she has met many people who worked directly on developing the Station and maintaining the Shuttle fleet. I have met many of these folks too and know that they are bright and dedicated members of the team. Both of us are certainly in sympathy with those who have been affected by the shutting-down of the program. I hope that many of them can be re-assigned to other aspects of NASA's work. Otherwise the agency will be losing some fantastic minds that also contain very valuable knowledge.

In other words, I am saying it is the people not the things that are important. Let other places have retired Shuttles or a facsimilie. I walk into many, many stores and restaurants in the Clear Lake area each week (most are owner operated, i.e. Mom-and-Pop concerns) that have pictures of the various Shuttle crews or of individual astronauts who have lived and worked in the area. When we see them we are reminded of their bravery and dedication but we are also reminded of the hundreds of people (thousands even over the last half century) who work with them behind the scenes to make it all possible.

Now that I know the SAIL will be on exhibit I will certainly go see it. It will be my way of honoring all those who have dedicated themselves to this great program over the last three-plus decades.

[2112]

More cool news. The wife and I went to the final SAIL "get together", at the Gilruth Center (outdoor pavillion for employee picnics and get togethers). There were people there we havent seen for over 10 years and more, plus all surviving SAIL employees. People that started the place since 1974, Mostly, everyone will be layed off, so this was sorta a final time to get together and celebrate the Shuttle program. To our surprize, the center director showed up, and spoke elequently. There were several astronauts there...but surprize number one...the commander for the last final shuttle mission was there...he hung out with us and spoke and all was good. That was a huge honor to have him aknowledge the laboratory and its history. What I was really happy to hear was center director Coats' vision on making the SAIL a real awesome historical presentation for the eventual public Space Center Houston tour. His vision as he spoke to us, is to make the SAIL look like the real thing. (I dont know...maybe add the payload bay doors??) The cockpit will be showcased, along with all the avionics. And in many ways it will be better than the retired orbiters that Houston didnt get, because ours, the SAIL, will showcase the real complex electrical, avionics, wiring, and engineering that makes the shuttle fly. The way it was described, I sorta see it as a testament to the engineering of this incredible machine. In short, it will preserve the work that Houston played in the Shuttle. I can now feel proud to one day take my future grand children in there, and show them where we once worked for many years! I'm so excited about this! It's a sorta of justice, we all felt it tonight. Here is a cool pic with the wife, STS 135 commander, and yours truly...

[LTAWACS]

I think it's ridiculous that we didnt get one. ugh.`

[TxDave]

It is ridiculous, Houston should have gotten the 1st one.

Although it is nice to see an old piece of equipment, I would prefer to see the rest of what JSC & Space Center Houston has to offer – a good explanation and tour of where the command work happened.

[citykid09]

I could have sworn that I saw on the news a few months ago that Houston would be getting an exact replica/mockup of a shuttle. Now I see that the old mockup that JSC already had is going to Seattle. I don't get it! Is Houston (JSC) getting a muckup space shuttle or not?

Everytime I see this sketch of Houston's proposal for a shuttle, I can't help but laugh. Its just a storage building with windows. Each city's proposal reflected those cities personality and Houston's just confirmed what eveyone thinks about its personality. BORING! Minimal I guess becasue there are so many of these type of people who control so much "Where not spending our hard earned tax dollars on ??whatever??"

[TheNiche]

Imprecision, thy name be Citykid.

[VelvetJ]

Perceptive, thy name is citykid. Current day Houston is the perennial underachiever. Underachievement is now part of the local culture and is embraced because it is often labeled "fiscally responsible". It really is a shame considering the city's size.