Jump to content

Engineer Proposes I-45 Tunnel


Recommended Posts

What am I talking about? I am talking about Houston not getting monorail when it had a chance, I am talking about Houston not getting a subway system when it had a chance, I am talking about Houston not being good enough for the Olympics, I am talking about Houston missing out on alot of things because the people that live there don't think anything really good is feasible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 203
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Houston would have never gotten a subway system. Not feasible for the city. Olympics wasn't a big lost, much of the improvement from an Olympics are already built such as the stadiums. Monorail does not provide good urban transit, but functions much better as a commuter rail for longer distance. METRO has already moved forward and is working on two commuter lines.

Also, the improvements in downtown and inner core urbanization is impressive over the last 10 years. Uptown continues to see massive growth. The TMC and the area around doesn't seem to stop moving either.

This city and region has done a lot. Sure we let some things go, but you can't live in regret. Look at all the stuff that's comming up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are the one getting your hopes up. If the developer does drum up press on PROPOSALS (not garunteed), then he can get more sources of finacial backing to make the project go through. This in particular to residential projects.

If finacing falls through or if the group of interested parties faulter (Orion), then the project goes. That's why know who the development group an their history is just as important as the proposal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^

The project will take little new right-of-way eventhough they are expanding it a lot more.

I also think the project if accepted by the heights instead of continously opposed could be much better.  I thinkthe neighborhoods could work with TxDOT...

A coalition such as the Katyfreeway Coalition needs to be formed. 

Did you attend the Town Hall Meeting on I-45 Expansion on August 13 at Jefferson Davis High School organized by the I45 Coalition? I'd be curious to know and if you did then apparently you weren't paying attention when you say "The project will take little new right-of-way eventhough they are expanding it a lot more." Didn't you see the TXDOT map eleminating an entire niehborhood between Houston Ave. and I45? Didn't you see the effect on Germantown? "I also think the project if accepted by the heights instead of continously opposed could be much better. Didn't you hear the question and answer session when residents asked specific questions about new alternatives and were stonewalled by TXDOT and thier engineers? "A coalition such as the Katyfreeway Coalition needs to be formed." Did you miss the address from the I45 Coalition?

I don't know if you still live just a few blocks from I-10 in the Heights but if you do then I'm sure you attended this important meeting. I believe there were over 300 people there. If I saw you and recognized you I would have said "Hi!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are the one getting your hopes up.  If the developer does drum up press on PROPOSALS (not garunteed), then he can get more sources of finacial backing to make the project go through.  This in particular to residential projects.

If finacing falls through or if the group of interested parties faulter (Orion), then the project goes.  That's why know who the development group an their history is just as important as the proposal.

Acctually I know for a fact that the Orion is still going ahead. They are just redesigning as they say they are. You will see! I have a connetion! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am all for Houston's "Big Dig". I think it is something that would be an asset, not detriment. People complain about the money, so what. If you want to be a city that is known as progressive, then you have to take this sort of opportunity. Oh, we can't, flooding! Stop your crying about flooding. People, Amsterdam is below see level and they don't have nearly the problems this city has. You think it could be ineffective planning. Maybe. I am not a civil engineer, so I don't have a clue as to how you develop freeway systems or subways. I just rather fly into a city and see green where a freeway once stood. Has anyone been to Portland? Where there once was a freeway, green spaces now abound. They have put themselves on the map around the world as a city of forward thinking innovation. My parents have lived off of Bunker Hill for almost 20 years. They have never been so disappointed in their entire lives. They had hoped TXDOT would have dug (like 59 by West U and 75 Central in Dallas. Intstead they are going to have a huge blight to look at for the rest of their lives. Can TXDOT and other not get a little creative??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that the tunnel is a really great idea, but saying that it would be cheaper then above ground, I don't know about that.

I would think it would be more expensive for a dig, but I could be wrong. Plus, just think from an aesthtic point of view. Flying in our out of Hobby you would just see this stip of green (if covered). Even if not covered, just below ground, it would still look so incredible. Oh, and billboards. We have to do something about them. I am so sick and tired of billboards on top of each other down Westheimer and on our freeways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stop your crying about flooding. People, Amsterdam is below see level and they don't have nearly the problems this city has. You think it could be ineffective planning. Maybe.

amsterdam averages 32" of rain per year. we average over 50", and we often see downpours of over 4"/hour. i don't think they ever see anything like that.

i'm not a civil engineer either, i'm sure they can build a tunnel to withstand our rainfall, but it can't be easy or cheap.

look at LA, they get 4" over several hours (obviously they don't have to deal with this very often, but it does happen) and there's chaos. i think houston does ok considering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

amsterdam averages 32" of rain per year. we average over 50", and we often see downpours of over 4"/hour. i don't think they ever see anything like that.

i'm not a civil engineer either, i'm sure they can build a tunnel to withstand our rainfall, but it can't be easy or cheap.

look at LA, they get 4" over several hours (obviously they don't have to deal with this very often, but it does happen) and there's chaos. i think houston does ok considering.

Less rainfall, but they are also below see level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i guess my point was, i'm thinking if they got some of the summer storms we get, amsterdam would be flooding too.

while i was there in the "rainy season" it would drizzle for days, but no downpours. the banks would never rise, and the ground wasn't saturated.

i just don't think its the best comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i guess my point was, i'm thinking if they got some of the summer storms we get, amsterdam would be flooding too.

while i was there in the "rainy season" it would drizzle for days, but no downpours. the banks would never rise, and the ground wasn't saturated.

i just don't think its the best comparison.

You are probably right. I lived there for a year. I never did see a huge downpour, just the cold, windy drizzle for the most part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^^

what are you talking about. not all tunnels are watertight. Especially the type that this proposal would use (cut and cover). It is also the same used on portion of the Big Dig that is now leaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^^

what are you talking about.  not all tunnels are watertight.  Especially the type that this proposal would use (cut and cover).  It is also the same used on portion of the Big Dig that is now leaking.

Once again, kjb434, you don't have your facts correct. It is NOT a cut and cover. It is a tunnel. 100 feet below grade. Tunneled with big ol' tunneling technology. I guess you missed my previous post to another of your ill-informed posts when I asked if you had attended the I45 Coalition meeting at Jeff Davis. But there were only about 500 concerned residents there so I could see how it would have fallen off your radar screen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even more of a concerned being 100-feet below. When tunnels are bored a deep levels, the aim for a hard rock layer but not too hard to cut through.

The Channel Tunnel in Europe used a Chalk layer sandwiched between two more rockier layers to be built. The tunnel alignment and depth varied by this chalk layer.

Unless Mr. Gonzales had the detailed geologic data though boring and soils analysis, he has no way of knowing this will work.

Another thing to note, Houston does not have an underlying rocky layer to dig through. When you bore deep under Houston, you hit generally a sandy and silty clay layers. These material are quickly water logged and are often used to supply water wells in the surburban areas of the county. Any attempt to tunnel in these areas will see severe baclash from environmental groups and will need many approvals from the TCEQ and Texas Water Board.

Yes, it is possible to build a water tight tunnel, but the realities of putting this into place make it to me not worth it. I think he just giving hope that is not needed and quite false. I sent Mr Gonzales' proposal to two geology buddies of mine. One who has worked on many tunnel projects such as the Big Dig in Boston. Both has responded that there is no way the costs will be cheaper than just widening the current freeway. The friend who worked on the Big Dig in Boston divulged one of the biggest problems with the Boston project with the deeper tunnels along I-93 was that the boring information doesn't give a complete picture of what you are tunneling through. This caused many cost overruns. Also, the pressures exerted on a tunnel in that situation are great and have cause many of the leaks in the Boston project. The project went from water tight to having leaks because the outside pressure on the tunnels exceeded with what was expected beyond the typical factor of safety built into the project.

Tunneling and geolical engineering is not an exact science. It is based a lot on existing experience and empirical data. After two courses in engineering geology, I'm more worried about tunnels projects because of the lack of hard science we know. Most of the data we have is emprical and can change easily throughout the proposed project. Civil engineers rarely a jumping at the prospect of going into geolocical engineering arm of of Civil Engineering because there is a lot of risk. It's the reason I chose to go into the water resoursces (hydraulics and hydrology) side of civil engineering.

I didn't want to get into this detail of a post before. But I guessed you forced me too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even more of a concerned being 100-feet below.  When tunnels are bored a deep levels, the aim for a hard rock layer but not too hard to cut through.

The Channel Tunnel in Europe used a Chalk layer sandwiched between two more rockier layers to be built.  The tunnel alignment and depth varied by this chalk layer.

Unless Mr. Gonzales had the detailed geologic data though boring and soils analysis, he has no way of knowing this will work.

Another thing to note, Houston does not have an underlying rocky layer to dig through.  When you bore deep under Houston, you hit generally a sandy and silty clay layers.  These material are quickly water logged and are often used to supply water wells in the surburban areas of the county.  Any attempt to tunnel in these areas will see severe baclash from environmental groups and will need many approvals from the TCEQ and Texas Water Board.

Yes, it is possible to build a water tight tunnel, but the realities of putting this into place make it to me not worth it.  I think he just giving hope that is not needed and quite false.  I sent Mr Gonzales' proposal to two geology buddies of mine.  One who has worked on many tunnel projects such as the Big Dig in Boston.  Both has responded that there is no way the costs will be cheaper than just widening the current freeway.  The friend who worked on the Big Dig in Boston divulged one of the biggest problems with the Boston project with the deeper tunnels along I-93 was that the boring information doesn't give a complete picture of what you are tunneling through.  This caused many cost overruns.  Also, the pressures exerted on a tunnel in that situation are great and have cause many of the leaks in the Boston project.  The project went from water tight to having leaks because the outside pressure on the tunnels exceeded with what was expected beyond the typical factor of safety built into the project.

Tunneling and geolical engineering is not an exact science.  It is based a lot on existing experience and empirical data.  After two courses in engineering geology, I'm more worried about tunnels projects because of the lack of hard science we know.  Most of the data we have is emprical and can change easily throughout the proposed project.  Civil engineers rarely a jumping at the prospect of going into geolocical engineering arm of of Civil Engineering because there is a lot of risk.  It's the reason I chose to go into the water resoursces (hydraulics and hydrology) side of civil engineering.

I didn't want to get into this detail of a post before.  But I guessed you forced me too.

"...forced me too..."? YIKES! What you seem to really mean is you don't care about a better quality of life, if I read most of your posts correctly. It always seems to be build more lanes of freeway and why don't you damn Heights trouble-makers shut your mouths and take it up the a** so my buddies from the woodlands can speed through your niehborhood to get to and from downtown as quickly as possible. By the way, you never responded to my questions re: the I45 Coalition meeting. Too busy, I guess? B)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I realized the productivity of the meeting wouldn't be there when I looked at the fliers. If the goal is to prevent expansion and improvents and not comprimising on what's best for everyone, I don't want to be a part of that.

I've told several of the coalition members to look at the I-45 expansion and figure out what can it do good instead of demonizing it.

I would like for the neighborhood to support a concept that would turn I-45 into an architectural asset versus looking on it as a blight. Why could the coalition back a concept like the central expressway in dallas? or the depressed portion of US 59 south of downtown?

I-45 can really become an asset to beautify the community and make things better. TxDOT is more likely to work with someone who is for comprimise than complete obstructionist.

TxDOT would rather spend a little more money to beautify the project to the community's liking than to just piss a bunch of people off, but its hard when the people you are dealing with are coming to the meetings already against you.

The I-45 coalition should band together like the Katy Freeway Coalition and get more what they want than just a generict freeway.

Imagine the North Main overpass having planter and a wide sidwalk? Imagine a light scheme through the section that is architecturally pleasing while not sending light into the neighborhood.

The I-45 coalition should look torwards the Pegasus project in Dallas (south downtown freeways) as a model for making the freeway more an assent than a blight. These examples are where communities (business and residential) came together to work with TxDOT. Also, I think downtown interests would be willing to get involved with a group that may want to make one of the main approaches to the CBD a pleasing one.

As long as the communities just fight TxDOT, they will not get what they really want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you kjb, but you may have to make your voice heard for that to happen. I wonder if we have as much clout as the Montrose/Southwest crowd did, to get 59 the way it is. And, yelling about tunnels may make them try to make the corridor more palatable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I realized the productivity of the meeting wouldn't be there when I looked at the fliers.  If the goal is to prevent expansion and improvents and not comprimising on what's best for everyone, I don't want to be a part of that.

I've told several of the coalition members to look at the I-45 expansion and figure out what can it do good instead of demonizing it.

I would like for the neighborhood to support a concept that would turn I-45 into an architectural asset versus looking on it as a blight.  Why could the coalition back a concept like the central expressway in dallas?  or the depressed portion of US 59 south of downtown?

I-45 can really become an asset to beautify the community and make things better.  TxDOT is more likely to work with someone who is for comprimise than complete obstructionist.

TxDOT would rather spend a little more money to beautify the project to the community's liking than to just piss a bunch of people off, but its hard when the people you are dealing with are coming to the meetings already against you.

The I-45 coalition should band together like the Katy Freeway Coalition and get more what they want than just a generict freeway.

Imagine the North Main overpass having planter and a wide sidwalk?  Imagine a light scheme through the section that is architecturally pleasing while not sending light into the neighborhood.

The I-45 coalition should look torwards the Pegasus project in Dallas (south downtown freeways) as a model for making the freeway more an assent than a blight.  These examples are where communities (business and residential) came together to work with TxDOT.  Also, I think downtown interests would be willing to get involved with a group that may want to make one of the main approaches to the CBD a pleasing one.

As long as the communities just fight TxDOT, they will not get what they really want.

Well, it's good to know who I can get to tell me when a meeting will be productive based on a flyer.

It is clear you didn't go to the meeting. It is clear you had no intention of going to the meeting. The only one doing the demonizing is you. People like you are a dime a dozen. All talk and no walk.

Myself, my partner and over 500 people showed up.

We listened politely. We asked intellegent questions. We offered thoughtful solutions. Then we were stonewalled by TXDOT.

Your quote: "...I don't want to be a part of that." Based on a flyer? Based on an assumption? Good then we agree. I don't want you to be a part of that either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I conversed with several who did who are in WOBA (White Oak Bayou Association). We get regular updates of the activities with I-45 and the meetings. The lady that relays to us pretty much gives a play by play. She also takes our minutes down since she is good at detail.

The reason I didn't attend meeting also is that had other activities already planned. I don't live right by the project since I live in the Cottage Grove area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I conversed with several who did who are in WOBA (White Oak Bayou Association).  We get regular updates of the activities with I-45 and the meetings.  The lady that relays to us pretty much gives a play by play.  She also takes our minutes down since she is good at detail.

The reason I didn't attend meeting also is that had other activities already planned.  I don't live right by the project since I live in the Cottage Grove area.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -_-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And?

I could not care at all about the project and suggest and contribute at all.

I know several engineers at TxDOT. I've talked about the project with them.

They are willing to work to make the project more acceptable, but they can't do anything as long as the neighborhood is so hostile. They are going to give in to anything as the long as the neighborhood takes the stance they are holding.

I don't blame them if after the public meetings they don't do anything for the subdivision. TxDOT has a job set out by state law and guided also by federal rules. I routinely dislike them being persecuted for doing there job and doing it well. They get called names and belittled constantly. I can see why they don't like doing some of these public meetings.

Also, the neighborhood doesn't have to be a rich neigborhood to get things done. The heights have an advantage that the freeway is alread depressed. More of the work would be dressing it up.

The only real right of way crunch is at north main which will affect mostly businesses. TxDOT can't touch the graveyard on the east side. I wish the citizens realized they can really make something out of this than just trying to stop it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know why Metro could use the Hardy Toll Road once it hits Downtown?

The Park and Rides would need to be moved to the Hardy though, but how is this different than what is planned for US 290?

To me, I-45 would be a version of US 290 would like to be in the future. TxDOT could remove the HOV lane and just make people use the hardy. The only problems is that the managed laned concept rewards people for riding three or more where the toll road doesn't. HCTRA would have to revamp the signage and toll collection rules and pricing for the Hardy Toll Road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I don't think you'll have to really expand Hardy except for maybe north of the Beltway. The positive thing would be to make it free for vehicles with 3 or more passengers just like the I-10 concept on the Katy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

QUOTE(kjb434 @ Tuesday, August 30th, 2005 @ 9:29am)

I realized the productivity of the meeting wouldn't be there when I looked at the fliers.

Apparently 500+ people at the town hall meeting must have made an impression on TXDOT. They are now reevaluating and concentrating on using the Hardy corridor to divert some of the I45 traffic. I guess all us nasty old Heightsites that really don't want TXDOT taking a hunk out of our neighborhood weren't so powerless after all.

And those flyers!!! Man, were they ever a deal killer, kjb!

B)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


All of the HAIF
None of the ads!
HAIF+
Just
$5!


×
×
  • Create New...