Engineer Proposes I-45 Tunnel

[UrbaNerd]

Then, we'd have cars crashing into the train, causing traffic backups in the freeway! cmon, tis Houston!

Plus, they would have to cram all of those mechanics in there. Also, the configuration of stations, etc would cause prices to skyrocket.

Besides, there is perfectly good land on top of the tunnel for rail! (cheaper than putting it in with the cars)

im not an engineer, so i can't really tell you too much.

[LTAWACS]

Then, we'd have cars crashing into the train, causing traffic backups in the freeway!  cmon, tis Houston!

Plus, they would have to cram all of those mechanics in there.  Also, the configuration of stations, etc would cause prices to skyrocket.

Besides, there is perfectly good land on top of the tunnel for rail! (cheaper than putting it in with the cars)

im not an engineer, so i can't really tell you too much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[LTAWACS]

So does does anyone have pics?

[citykid09]

Well I mean have them seperated, but also have them where they can see eachother.

[The Voice of University Oaks]

The county did a study on commuter rail out 290 and 249 (ironically, to try to defeat the rail bond issue), and came up with an estimated construction cost of $3 to $5 million.  Knowing that the real cost would escalate, I doubled it to be conservative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. Bob Eckels came up with that commuter rail feasibility study as a "red herring" to try to defeat the METROSolutions plan. And the estimated construction cost is way too low to be taken seriously. The study contains some cost assumptions that are absolutely ridiculous. For example, they assumed only three stations per line, with parking for only 250 cars at each lot.

For comparison's stake, METRO currently has over 2,500 spaces at the Northwest Station Park and Ride alone.

As I've said on another thread: with the exception of 90A and possibly 249, we're not likely to see commuter rail in Houston for a long time.

[GovernorAggie]

I thought that the county study said costs would be near $300 million.

[RedScare]

That's true...$295 million...for 2 rail lines totalling 82 miles, or $3.6 million per mile.

[RedScare]

Sorry...cite

http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/003207.html

[citykid09]

What ever there going to do, I want to see some action start soon, I hate waiting, the only way I am happy is if I can see progress.

[houston_urban_fan]

There is a full-length interview with the I45 Tunnel Plan's author at:

www.downtownhouston.com

For those that are skeptical, remember that tunnels are nothing new to Houston.

This back-water town built two before the reichstag in Austin took over.

[GovernorAggie]

I really hope TxDOT does this tunnel, even if it's just in part (say replacing the Pierce Elevated with a tunnel or making it a tunnel inside 610 where it's already mostly below grade anyway). The only thing is that it will take away from the skyline views, but I think that's a small thing compared to having a substantial infrastructure put in place.

[citykid09]

I think it would be very neat, for people who have never been to Houston and there first time coming in from the airport driving into the tunnel way up there before the skyline and inner city is visable, and then, finally coming out of the tunnel once you get into the core city. Do you know how amazing that would look! Houston would look very urban, and the tunnels would help with the urban look. Think about it.... Have you ever seen a tunnel in somewhere out in a rural area? No, but you have seen the other types of roads. So it would really give it an urban feel.

[MidtownCoog]

More self-serving Heights residents.

This guy is just worried about his hood. Can't say I blame him, but if you are worried about pollution, don't live near the freeway.

[oaksinger]

Does this plan deal with the issue of digging under the bayous? That to me would seem like a major challenge.

[RedScare]

Digging under a bayou presents no more challenge, generally, than dry land. Once you hit the water table, which in Houston, is only a few feet deep, you must deal with water. Tunnels are designed to be watertight, so going under a bayou is not a big issue.

[kjb434]

Maybe a tunnel in portions, but not the whole stretch of road.

[rhinolaw]

Maybe a tunnel in portions, but not the whole stretch of road.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

why not

a friend told me about this bulleting and took the time to read your comments. rather enjoyable i would say.

what i do need to do is generate a rendering of what the I-45 tunnel could look like... in the mean time think of two tunnels (one northbound and one southbound) designed for through traffic... reconstruct the at-grade I-45 into a parkway (similar to the allen parkway/memorial) where there is more green space and few traffic signals...this will be for local traffic (in HGAC's terms is called express street)... and don't forget for metro to place a light rail or brt or some kind of mass transit in the middle.... this will link greenspoint to downtown...a quick and future link to the airports...

so, think of the pierce elevated gone and replaced with a nice parkway with lots of trees and a metro express route...not bad comming from a self serving heights fellow...

14.5 miles of tunnel would be the longest in the USA and would certainly get world attention...not bad....now we are placing houston where it should be...up there with the best cities...

thank you for your comments. they certainly help me identify areas that i need to communicate better.

gonzalo camacho

[RedScare]

Hey Gonzalo:

From one self-serving Heights resident to another, keep up the good work! Great to see someone unafraid to think big. And welcome to the board. Come back often.

[GovernorAggie]

Glad to see you here, Gonzalo.

[ricco67]

Redscare sez:

Tunnels are designed to be watertight, so going under a bayou is not a big issue.

Oh? Perhaps someone should tell that to the Boston Tunnel from the Big dig. They have been having leaking issues after the first year of operation.

Ricco

[RedScare]

well....most of them....aren't they....?

[kjb434]

Not really. Much of the Boston tunnels were build in a cut and cover process. Earthen material is excavated and the tunnel is built and then covered over.

Other types of tunnels actually rest on the bottom the body of water they cross (Baytown Tunnel, Washburn Tunnel). These tunnels are tubest that are sealed. Some of the Boston tunnels (Ted Williams Tunnel) was built this way.

[dp2]

I'd be interested in reading Max Concrete's take on the guy's cost estimates. They seem to be significantly underestimated at just 25% over at-grade. I wonder if he is using some convoluted/bogus 'social cost' accounting to inflate at-grade?

[brijonmang]

Yeah...or he could be anticipating the use of slave labor...lol

[rhinolaw]

I'd be interested in reading Max Concrete's take on the guy's cost estimates.  They seem to be significantly underestimated at just 25% over at-grade.  I wonder if he is using some convoluted/bogus 'social cost' accounting to inflate at-grade?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the cost estimate was done by Dr. Sauer http://dr-sauer.com/index_html_flash.

the actual cost of constructing the tunnels are two times the construction of at-grade lanes. the cost savings comes from environmental impacts, not having the need to purchase right of way, reduced cost of engineering, and reduced cost of construction management. to give you an idea on the magnitude of the numbers, i believe the cost of right of way for I-10 is around $300 million.

Dr. Sauer is what I would consider and expert in the field, he does not need to play games with numbers because he knows his business.

You all would find his knowledge about the big dig very interesting. Per his comments, before construction of the big dig was started he told public officials and engineers that they were doing the wrong thing.

With the I-45 Coalition we plan to have a public meeting in July and hopefully will have Dr. Sauer in town so he can share his thoughts on the project.

Will keep you posted.

[RedScare]

Rhino-

Isn't the ROW costs on the Katy far in excess of $300 million? The original estimate was $1.4 Billion, and it has now soared to $2.2 Billion. I believe the lion's share of that increase is ROW aquisition.

Point made, though.

Article in this weeks Houston Press estimated $200 mil for tunnel versus $100 mil for at-grade.

[kjb434]

On I-45, most of the ROW acquisition would occur inside loop 610 and from just north loop 610 to just north of Airline.

North of that, TxDOT could facilitate mangaged lanes without much if any ROW acquisition.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Wouldn't the cost of ROW acquistion in Katy include those properties that were/are being torn down? I would imagine that property values are pretty high along the Katy to begin with, especially with those fully developed structures.

[RedScare]

ROW includes everything from the original feeder road to the new curb, basically. All of the homes and businesses that disappeared had to be bought. TxDOT wildly underestimated this cost. Additionally, many of the landowners went to court, because they wanted a lot more money. Apparently, planners thought that westside residents would be so happy to get a new freeway, that they would virtually give the land away (and dance in the street and give flowers to the bulldozer drivers).

Didn't happen.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Something I haven't seen discussed (and maybe I've missed it) is the fact that a tunnel can be built without interfering with the existing operation of the freeways on the surface. At least conceptually, in my mind, the majority of the tunnel could be completed without anyone on the surface knowing that construction is underway.

On a traditional freeway widening, management of the existing traffic is a significant cost. You have to build a freeway while not impeding traffic, which in its simplest terms means building temporary lanes, shifting the traffic over, demolishing the old lanes, building the new lanes, then shifting the traffic to the new lanes, demolishing the temporary lanes and building new lanes in their place.

While underground construction is by no means easy or cheap, it would in some ways be similar to constructing on virgin territory, because you don't have to worry about the existing freeway.