The Little D

[wxman]

Before I start, this is not a hater thread on Dallas. This is just an observation and was curious of everybody else's thoughts. As somebody who has been to Dallas a thousand times and has family in all quadrants of the city, I find that Dallas just really doesn't live up to the 'Big' D. Certainly, Dallas is sizable but nothing compared to the behemoth cities like NYC, Chicago, LA or even Houston.

I was in Dallas this past weekend and I REALLY like it there. In fact, I want to move there. But one thing I never could figure out is why Dallas grew the way it did. In Houston, the urban area completely surrounds the city and at some points to as far as nearly 50 miles from the downtown area (Downtown to Conroe, Downtown to west of Katy). In Dallas, you don't even know you're in the Metroplex until you reach Downtown Dallas from 45. Then, once you get up past the President George Bush Turnpike, the urbanization drops off pretty quick and once you pass Stacy or Eldorado (granted, it is a quickly developing area) it's nothing again.

In my opinion, Houston seems like a MUCH bigger city than Dallas. The Houston metro has nearly the same amount of people over a smaller area and doesn't have a sister city to aid in the population boost. Does anybody else feel that Dallas just really isn't all THAT big of a city???

[lockmat]

I'm not real sure as I haven't spent a ton of time there. I've driven through on my way to Oklahoma a few times and then through Fort Worth coming home from New Mexico. I've also spent less than 7 days there in my whole life.

You're right that Houston seems to be more dense as you can drive in from anywhere part of city (sans 288) and you've got city for 20+ miles, at least. South Dallas seems like south Houston as the city jumps on you out of nowhere.

But in general, you're right, when driving through, it doesn't feel huge (at least on the routes I've been on, which includes the freeway that connects Arlington and Dallas). But I guess you can't argue the numbers as the metroplex is still bigger no matter how you cut it.

[sowanome]

I'm living in Dallas now and I also like it as a nice place to live , but just wish it had more n.hoods with Characters and not just the North Dallas(highland park, U.Park, P. hollow, etc semi-suburban style hoods.

Moving here from Chicago this summer, when comparing Dallas to Houston I assumed it'd be much larger due to the "Big D" title, but in reality the way that Dallas is zoned, most of the Dallas that people will tell you about is North of Downtown inside of 635 and it's not a huge area. The other parts of Dallas proper are very hidden from highways, unlike Houston where you can clearly see most n.hood's from various highways.

On a whole, Dallas as a city isn't huge, but it's Dallas connection (lack of a west side) to Irving/Las Colinas that makes it a smaller city. When going north, it's proximity to Addison/Plano/Richardson make it a much smaller city. When in Houston, I noticed that when outside of 610 you're still in Houston, when outside of 635 you're out of Dallas. Just a smaller place

[wxman]

Even the Metro area of Houston seems far larger than Dallas overall. As of the latest census numbers, the metro area of DFW consists of 12 counties and covers an area of 9,286 sq. miles. It hosts a population of 6.4 million. The Houston Metro consists of 10 counties at just over 10,000 sq. miles. The Houston metro is home to ~6 million. However, Houston in the only 'principle' city in the Metro unlike DFW where even the far western reaches of Ft. Worth are still counted. In reality, if Ft. Worth wasn't there, there is no way people would be as far removed from Dallas as they are. Even with a slightly, and emphasis on slightly, smaller population, Houston feels and looks like a much bigger city than the DFW area.

[DefenDallas]

Houston absolutely has the 'feel' of a bigger city (surprise, it is!) Maybe if you squished Dallas and Fort Worth together, urbanization would be comparable to Houston. As for the drive up I-45 into town, the corridor parallels the Trinity River, and the Great Trinity Forest, until you reach downtown. The River is flanked by levees and creates a huge gash of nothingness, bisecting the city. Its easy to see if you look at a nighttime satellite image of the city. This creates a perception that you're not in the city, until you're downtown. Also, south Dallas has been neglected in every way for ages, and it simply hasn't seen the development of the north over the decades. I suppose the corridor with the longest stretch of continuous development would be I-35E from Sanger on down to south of Waxahachie. Development in Fort Worth is highly sporadic, but it gives the city a 'western' feel, with 'wide open spaces', and for me is a positive. But I want Dallas to grow inward, and I feel the tide may be turning, as builders scale back the seemingly constant sprawl (not because people want to live in the city, admittedly), and urbanism slowly gains favor as inner neighborhoods gentrify. Wishful thinking, I know, but I wouldn't trade my apartment and daily train commute for a McMansion in Frisco and gridlock, no way.

[sowanome]

Wishful thinking, I know, but I wouldn't trade my apartment and daily train commute for a McMansion in Frisco and gridlock, no way.

I agree about that commute/gridlock session that one will encounter from the "north" burbs! I really wish they dropped a bomb on half of the apts. in uptown and develop some residential townhomes/mid rise condos, etc. so that if you'd like to own in the area, you can actually "Purchase" in the area! Other than possibly the M streets, I just don't see an area that could handle a heavy amount of true urbanism while also keeping its cultural identity. Oak Cliff was a great try but for what, a 2 x 2 block radius..an absolute joke!

Overall, I'm still impressed about the area north of downtown between 75 & The tollway up to 635....I've never seen such a continuously nice stretch of area of that size in any city, now only if the Entry level prices were below an avg of $500k .

[2112]

I notice the feel you are refering too, when comming into Houston from being out of town for some time. Things start becoming more industrialized quickly...more concrete, more buildings close together, steel structures of the many freeway interchanges all over the place, the huge industry on the east side and the port, with the sea of refineries and factories with the smoke stacks, and so on. And then there is the mass of cars and humanity. It sorta actually wears me down too. By the time i drive into Houston and finally get to my house, I feel drained of energy. I know all this stuff is what many people outside of Houston point to as the negatives of this city, but I actually kinda like it, believe it or not. When you finally arive into the downtown area, it really feels huge. After not being here for days, the buildings really look massive. It's kinda crazy how the 59 elevated has old warehouses on the east side, some butting up against the elevated itself, and the older downtown buildings to the right with the GRB practially right up against the west side of the elevated, with those bizzare freeway ramp looking things that goes right into the building itself!

Having said all that, we go to Austin alot, and it's completely the opposite. The north west part as you exit Austin around Bee Cave, wow. The natural hills and lakes. Houston of course has nothing like that at all. I get a little jelous that we dont. But I'm ok with Houston just the way it is I guess.

[Trae]

Yeah, I noticed this when I moved to DFW. Has to do with the multipolar nature of this place. There are so many different cities/suburbs, each with their own core and their own attractions. IMO, this makes DFW seem smaller than what it really is. In the Houston area, everything revolves around Houston. The suburbs have some things, but nothing compared to what is in the city. The sports teams are in one place, museums in one place, skylines in one place vs. museums spread throughout different cities, major league sports teams in three different cities, skylines more spread out, etc. It's one reason why Houston's freeways are wider. More traffic is generally going into one area. In DFW, the freeways don't need to be as wide, because people are going all over the place. When you're in Dallas' core, you don't feel like you're in the middle of everything like one would in Houston's Inner Loop. Not to mention Dallas' core seems small for the size of DFW. Like DefenDallas said, you'd have to combine Fort Worth and a megaburb with big business (Irving, Plano, Addison) to equal Houston's core. The Dallas division of DFW only has a population in the four million range (like 4.3M), so it makes sense why it looks/feels smaller.

[lockmat]

Yeah, I noticed this when I moved to DFW. Has to do with the multipolar nature of this place. There are so many different cities/suburbs, each with their own core and their own attractions. IMO, this makes DFW seem smaller than what it really is.

I know LA area had many different cities that grew together and now makes up the Southern California area today. I guess Dallas will do the same thing.

[Dallaz]

Even the Metro area of Houston seems far larger than Dallas overall. As of the latest census numbers, the metro area of DFW consists of 12 counties and covers an area of 9,286 sq. miles. It hosts a population of 6.4 million. The Houston Metro consists of 10 counties at just over 10,000 sq. miles. The Houston metro is home to ~6 million. However, Houston in the only 'principle' city in the Metro unlike DFW where even the far western reaches of Ft. Worth are still counted. In reality, if Ft. Worth wasn't there, there is no way people would be as far removed from Dallas as they are. Even with a slightly, and emphasis on slightly, smaller population, Houston feels and looks like a much bigger city than the DFW area.

Maybe because we have zoning. In Houston you can build all kinds of stuff.

[IronTiger]

I think that as a city in itself, Houston is definitely bigger than Dallas, but Dallas is thrown in with the whole Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington area, which makes it seem way bigger than it actually is. Just like how College Station-Bryan or Temple-Killeen are small on their own but make a pretty substantial overall city area.

[slfunk]

I think that as a city in itself, Houston is definitely bigger than Dallas, but Dallas is thrown in with the whole Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington area, which makes it seem way bigger than it actually is. Just like how College Station-Bryan or Temple-Killeen are small on their own but make a pretty substantial overall city area.

Houston is bigger than Dallas, no doubt when you compare the city proper. Where the argument gets skewed is when you compare Houston metro to Dallas and say that Fort Worth-Arlington does not count. Ft. Worth / Arlington are most certainly part of the metro. The commute patterns (largest determining factor)are interlocked and establish one MSA that US census numbers and both the national and state governments recogonize in terms for funding the region. With that said the Houston MSA (10 counties)is regognized as the Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown MSA and contains 12,475 sq mi and population of 5,946,800. That area when compared to Dallas-Ft Worth-Alrington MSA (12 counties) is similar in size. DFW consists of 14,126 sq mi and the official 2010 US census puts it at 6,371,773. They are both similar in size and similar in population. I could not find the local jursidiction numbers for Houston MSA but for DFW the North Central Texas Council of Governments and the North Texas Municipal Water District which both base estimates for this region has DFW at 6,805,275.

Where the 'feel' of which seems larger has to do with zoning, topography, development patterns...etc. Not sure what the need is to have Houston be larger than DFW or vice versa. Ego stroking? Does it really matter? The difference to me is one is inland, one is by the Gulf, both have similar developments, developers with interest in both regions...etc. The big differences are one has zoning while the other does not and the type of economies. They areas work together (like city leaders collaborating on the inland port) to attract the buisness interests to both regions and better the good of the state.

[Trae]

Houston is bigger than Dallas, no doubt when you compare the city proper. Where the argument gets skewed is when you compare Houston metro to Dallas and say that Fort Worth-Arlington does not count. Ft. Worth / Arlington are most certainly part of the metro. The commute patterns (largest determining factor)are interlocked and establish one MSA that US census numbers and both the national and state governments recogonize in terms for funding the region. With that said the Houston MSA (10 counties)is regognized as the Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown MSA and contains 12,475 sq mi and population of 5,946,800. That area when compared to Dallas-Ft Worth-Alrington MSA (12 counties) is similar in size. DFW consists of 14,126 sq mi and the official 2010 US census puts it at 6,371,773. They are both similar in size and similar in population. I could not find the local jursidiction numbers for Houston MSA but for DFW the North Central Texas Council of Governments and the North Texas Municipal Water District which both base estimates for this region has DFW at 6,805,275.

Let's just go by the Census, to keep everything on a level playing field. Don't know how the NCTCOG comes up with that huge number for DFW. But for the metro areas, Harris County alone is currently at 4.1M. The entire Dallas division takes up 8 counties and has about the same population as Harris County. Commuting patterns don't tell the whole story though. Would you really separate San Fran-Oakland from San Jose? What separates the two MSAs is a business park and a creek. Fully developed on both sides. But the shared commuting patterns between the two cities is what makes it feel smaller and for the most part, population and jobs number are proportionate to each side of the metro. When it is rush hour time in Metro Houston, everyone it seems like is going into Houston. Don't think looking at the sizes of the MSA is fair either, since counties in Southeast Texas are larger than those in North Texas, but I already gave the Harris County vs. Dallas division example. Look at these two images:

The density in Houston is more consistent from the core, while DFW's density is more hodge-podge and dense in clusters. I believe this contributes to the different feels of each metro. If it wasn't for the traffic and some landmarks you can see in the distance, some of DFW's freeways would pass as being in the middle of nowhere.

Where the 'feel' of which seems larger has to do with zoning, topography, development patterns...etc. Not sure what the need is to have Houston be larger than DFW or vice versa. Ego stroking? Does it really matter? The difference to me is one is inland, one is by the Gulf, both have similar developments, developers with interest in both regions...etc. The big differences are one has zoning while the other does not and the type of economies. They areas work together (like city leaders collaborating on the inland port) to attract the buisness interests to both regions and better the good of the state.

Not sure what this is all about though. And is the collaborating for the Inland Port still going on like it was years ago? I've heard that one of the inland ports in Dallas is losing steam. Maybe Houston leaders want those distribution centers built in the Houston area instead of up in DFW instead? Especially with the increase in rail construction in the Houston area. Both are similar, but after living in DFW for a while now, you can tell the difference between the two. DFW looks more orderly and sterile from the freeways, while Houston (not the suburbs though) look chaotic. Both economies compliment each other well (in fact, all of Texas' major metro areas compliment each other well).

[Houston19514]

Let's just go by the Census, to keep everything on a level playing field. Don't know how the NCTCOG comes up with that huge number for DFW. But for the metro areas, Harris County alone is currently at 4.1M. The entire Dallas division takes up 8 counties and has about the same population as Harris County. Commuting patterns don't tell the whole story though.

Agreed. The Census provides the most reliable and comparable numbers. NCTCOG's estimates are actually for a differet set of counties than the D-FW Metropolitan Area.

[Houston19514]

Houston is bigger than Dallas, no doubt when you compare the city proper. Where the argument gets skewed is when you compare Houston metro to Dallas and say that Fort Worth-Arlington does not count. Ft. Worth / Arlington are most certainly part of the metro. The commute patterns (largest determining factor)are interlocked and establish one MSA that US census numbers and both the national and state governments recogonize in terms for funding the region. With that said the Houston MSA (10 counties)is regognized as the Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown MSA and contains 12,475 sq mi and population of 5,946,800. That area when compared to Dallas-Ft Worth-Alrington MSA (12 counties) is similar in size. DFW consists of 14,126 sq mi and the official 2010 US census puts it at 6,371,773. They are both similar in size and similar in population.

You ignore the primary difference that makes Houston seem bigger. Yes, DFW is one metro area, but it is divided into 2 metropolitan divisions. Two largely separate spheres.

[slfunk]

Houston 19514 - I acknowledge the fact that those who get involved in these discussions and are from Houston separate Ft. Worth / Arlington to try and make some silly point. I also recognize that many times forumers from Houston like to say Dallas consist of 12 counties (when saying Houston is more dense) but in the same breath like to say Ft. Worth does not count. Well Ft. Worth is included in those 12 counties. What I am saying is if you guys wish to have any arguement about Houston metro 'seeming' or being larger then DFW you have to include Ft. Worth / Arlington to have a fair discussion / comparison because DFW is no longer two separate (sphere's as you call it) metro's as it was back in the 1960's. It does not matter if a census stat takes the DFW MSA and subdivides into two. At the end of the day the census recognizes DFW as a whole. DFW functions as one and has for the past 30 plus years. Again commuting patterns, muncipality agreements, funding for projects (airport, jobs (which Dallas accounts for 51% of the DFW jobs) civic, transporation, commuter rail, schools, capital projects..etc.) all come together to make one metro area. Both the Houston MSA and the DFW MSA are similar in size and population much to the dismay of those in Dallas that want Dallas to be larger and those in Houston that want Houston to be larger.

So lets forget about investments, commute patterns, school districts, capital projects...etc, and lets just look at area. If you wish to continue saying that Houston metro is larger than Dallas then you have to subtract out any city or town that is 36 miles or further from downtown Houston because that is the distance between the DOWNTOWN centers of Dallas and Ft. Worth (granted the city limits are only 10 miles apart. So you would have to take out Conroe (48 miles), Galveston (51 miles), and Texas City (43 miles) to start having a fair comparision. But keep it at the 12 counties for DFW and 10 counties for Houston as someone in this thread has already said and you find out REAL quickly the two metro areas very similar.

Trae.... someone on this forum has tried to start a rumor that the Inland port is dead or was dead before it could get started. It is anything but dead. Development has slowed down b/c BNSF is currently rebuilding some of the infrastructure (much to the unhappines of the Alliance developers). But it is up and going and stays busy. All you have to do is look west when on I-45 coming into Dallas, and then look all around at all the warehouses and staging yards that have / are sprouting up.

[RedScare]

Trae.... someone on this forum has tried to start a rumor that the Inland port is dead or was dead before it could get started. It is anything but dead. Development has slowed down b/c BNSF is currently rebuilding some of the infrastructure (much to the unhappines of the Alliance developers). But it is up and going and stays busy. All you have to do is look west when on I-45 coming into Dallas, and then look all around at all the warehouses and staging yards that have / are sprouting up.

If the Dallas Morning News reporting that the developer of the inland "port" filed for bankruptcy in 2010 constitutes a rumor, then, yes, I tried to start that rumor. I look forward to your proving my rumor incorrect. You may start at the US Bankruptcy Court, Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division.

I'll be waiting patiently.

[slfunk]

Well for starters companies run under bankruptcy protection all the time. Remember the airlines. To add to that there is more than one developer developing different parts of this project. When the story ran and whether DMN got right or not, the news media reported one of the developers filed for bankruptcy. The news media also reported this did not stop the development of the logistics hub. Here is a link to the Logistics Hub website.

Here's what you said in the other thread:

'Well, as luck would have it, the whole thing just kind of died in 2007, right after the thread got locked. Then, in January 2010, the developer spearheading the whole thing filed for bankruptcy.'

Again look west when driving into Dallas off of I-45. Here is a link to the Logistics Hub website.

http://www.iipod-texas.org/news/index.htm

Union Pacific's facilities:

http://www.uprr.com/customers/intermodal/featured/dallas/index.shtml

Article on the completion of Union Pacific's Facilities:

http://www.auigc.com/docs/cs/Union_Pacific_Case_Study_LR.pdf

More about the facilities and masterplan:

http://www.dallashub.com/uploadedFiles/PDF/DLHBrochureV320081023.pdf

[Houston19514]

Houston 19514 - I acknowledge the fact that those who get involved in these discussions and are from Houston separate Ft. Worth / Arlington to try and make some silly point. I also recognize that many times forumers from Houston like to say Dallas consist of 12 counties (when saying Houston is more dense) but in the same breath like to say Ft. Worth does not count. Well Ft. Worth is included in those 12 counties. What I am saying is if you guys wish to have any arguement about Houston metro 'seeming' or being larger then DFW you have to include Ft. Worth / Arlington to have a fair discussion / comparison because DFW is no longer two separate (sphere's as you call it) metro's as it was back in the 1960's. It does not matter if a census stat takes the DFW MSA and subdivides into two. At the end of the day the census recognizes DFW as a whole. DFW functions as one and has for the past 30 plus years. Again commuting patterns, muncipality agreements, funding for projects (airport, jobs (which Dallas accounts for 51% of the DFW jobs) civic, transporation, commuter rail, schools, capital projects..etc.) all come together to make one metro area. Both the Houston MSA and the DFW MSA are similar in size and population much to the dismay of those in Dallas that want Dallas to be larger and those in Houston that want Houston to be larger.

So lets forget about investments, commute patterns, school districts, capital projects...etc, and lets just look at area. If you wish to continue saying that Houston metro is larger than Dallas then you have to subtract out any city or town that is 36 miles or further from downtown Houston because that is the distance between the DOWNTOWN centers of Dallas and Ft. Worth (granted the city limits are only 10 miles apart. So you would have to take out Conroe (48 miles), Galveston (51 miles), and Texas City (43 miles) to start having a fair comparision. But keep it at the 12 counties for DFW and 10 counties for Houston as someone in this thread has already said and you find out REAL quickly the two metro areas very similar.

Perhaps you need to have your vision checked. Some time ago you assured us that you had seen with your own eyes piers being installed for a skyscraper on a property that turned out to be a functioning valet parking lot (where said piers never were installed). Now, you don't seem to be able to read others' posts. I never said the Houston metro area IS larger than the DFW metro, nor has this thread been about Houston being larger. It is entirely about Hosuton, to many, seeming larger.

You can't just pick and choose which census categories appeal to you and pretend the others don't exist. How does it "not matter" that the census divides DFW into two divisions? The Census divides Metros in divisions when such areas "function as distinct areas within Metropolitan Statistical Areas". It is not based on distance, as you try to pretend in your second paragraph.

No one is "dissing" DFW here. It is a strong, fast-growing metropolitan area (and DFW is larger than Houston). But it is silly to pretend that DFW is not comprised of two separate central cities, two "spheres", or, as the US Census Bureau calls it, two "distinct areas within the MSA". Because of DFW's dispersal of the central city(ies), Houston, to many people "seems" larger.

[slfunk]

.

[Gary]

I find it hard to understand how anyone can debate that Houston is visually a much larger city than is Dallas. I travel constantly and can tell you without pause, that Houston has a far bigger feel. Which city one prefers is up to the individual, but arguing that Dallas somehow compares to Houston in it's inner city magnitude/urban feel is silly.

[TxDave]

The two metros are very similar in size (and characteristics), but I agree that Central Houston has a bigger city feel than Dallas.

Urban Houston is generally concentrated, whereas the DFW area is more decentralized and multi-nodal.

This is driving development of many strong semi-urban nodes in the Dallas area (Las Colinas, Addison, Legacy, etc.).

The result is several, generally nice, higher density neighborhoods, but it does dilute the urbanity of the core central Dallas neighborhoods.

[ellswef]

I live in Dallas dfw and have lived visited Houston IMO Dallas down town is lively funner with uptown an night life as far as com in up45 yes that is least populated area in which to enter however if you enter dfw from allen coming south its equivalent to enter Houston from conroe or hwy 6 or enter Dallas from west ftw or enter Dallas from35 north or 30 east from rowlett and keep going from riwlett towest ftw is 80 miles no where in Houston is stretch that long you really have travel metroplex

[ellswef]

Also Dallas is very concentrated from addison carrolgon please reply cause I have answers for you

[august948]

I live in Dallas dfw and have lived visited Houston IMO Dallas down town is lively funner with uptown an night life as far as com in up45 yes that is least populated area in which to enter however if you enter dfw from allen coming south its equivalent to enter Houston from conroe or hwy 6 or enter Dallas from west ftw or enter Dallas from35 north or 30 east from rowlett and keep going from riwlett towest ftw is 80 miles no where in Houston is stretch that long you really have travel metroplex

Ok..so what I can make out from this post is downtown Dallas is more fun than uptown (Houston or Dallas?) and you can drive 80 miles straight through the metroplex sprawl? I know that makes me want to visit Dallas.

[scarface]

I live in Dallas dfw and have lived visited Houston IMO Dallas down town is lively funner with uptown an night life as far as com in up45 yes that is least populated area in which to enter however if you enter dfw from allen coming south its equivalent to enter Houston from conroe or hwy 6 or enter Dallas from west ftw or enter Dallas from35 north or 30 east from rowlett and keep going from riwlett towest ftw is 80 miles no where in Houston is stretch that long you really have travel metroplex

 

Ok kid this is very cute. Run on sentence(s), first-posts trolling, and didn't know "funner" was even a word.

 

How old are you kid about 11 or 12 ? You don't need to even be thinking about nightlife right now. You need to finish elementary school and  be sure you're tucked in every night by 8:30.

[Mister X]

Don't worry HAIF, I'll get this. I speak Dallish.

 

conro too galvstan iz 90 miles1 long. houtown win! cuase it are evin longger then ddwf metraplax o.ok. houston and bigger and funnest plase allover grate state of Taxas. 

[ellswef]

I'm 43 years old i'mnot trolling Ok an Galveston is 45 miles from Houston even including it in h town dnt have as many people but the notion that Dallas is small us just rediculous I've lived in Houston I no Houston in Dallas u don't just have a downtown u have Los colinas .Richardson.ftw.Addison.not to mention 75 going north .plano has buildings I 35from 12 loop split has skyline IH an by the way beltway 8 in grown is what88 miles around and 610 loop is what 38 miles or so well beltline is 93 miles around and loop 12 is around 40 miles think about that don't forget your 610 also goes in no mans land ship channel o e more thing when u travel 45 to Dallas your right its not very busy but if u came into metro area from i75 its just like from conroe to sugar land hwy 6 an 59 Lot of just don't come that way

[august948]

I'm afraid that the Dallas ISD isn't looking very good right now.

[ellswef]

Houston is a nice city no doubt in fact all Texas is cool but for what ever reason you guys hate Dallas when leaving Dallas go in to Richardson or garland or mesquite or Addison or plano or Frisco or las colinas and the rest of metro u can't tell the difference no differt than living in jersey city in Houston or around trader village in h town or Missouri city .katy etc .there are more freeways here than h town as a hole not to say some freeways in htown are wider in some places but that's like Jacksonville fl is larger than Miami which boundary wise it is with larger pop but when u count metro Miami who is larger Miami is if stretch Dallas county imaginary line far out all other cities would be annex that's only for politics .gov. etc. You all need to be real talking bout don't have a big city feel please man y'all