Katy Since '78 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 October 6, 2010To: Nottingham Country Homeowners and OthersFrom: NCCIA Homeowners BoardRe: Public Notice – Public Housing Project at 21077 KingslandIt has come to our attention that sometime last week a “public notice” sign was erected on the above property. The sign was posted to comply with government regulations since this project will be comprised of 252 units of government subsidized HUD housing.The tract of land is approximately 9.6 acres and ingress and egress will be on the southwest side of Kingsland between the entrance to the patio homes and the large apartment complex at Provincial. The developer is the same one that did the patio homes across from the Paintball complex: Cornerbrook Development Co. 1025 Dulles Ave., Ste. 815 Stafford, Texas, 77477 Phone: 281-261-9009The state agency involved is the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs (phone #512-475-3340). Their website is tdhca.state.tx.us.This notice is primarily informational, but as neighboring residents I think we can all agree that the impact of such a project will create traffic problems, drainage concerns, and add to student population at both Taylor High School and NCE which are both within walking distance of the property. It could also have a detrimental effect on the home values throughout our area. Be on the lookout for notification of a public hearing or meeting which is mandatory for such a project.Nottingham Country Community Improvement Association Board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usc619 Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Good luck, We (Falcon Point/ Grand Harbor) went through the same thing earlier this year. Get ready for a bunch of folks who don't even live in Katy to chime in their worthless .02. lol Here's our thread on it.My linkbtw; We fought them off, so it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 After mapping the address listed, I can't figure out where 9 plus acres exists there. I know there's a decent sized parcel next to the existing apartment complex, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 5 acres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samiamj Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 After mapping the address listed, I can't figure out where 9 plus acres exists there. I know there's a decent sized parcel next to the existing apartment complex, but it doesn't seem to be more than about 5 acres.I saw a sign by the apartment developer for an information Developer Meeting on October 26 @ 7 pm Taylor HS Cafeteria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 Took a closer look at this site yesterday. That will be a mighty tight fit for 252 apartments, and I imagine the folks who just bought the crappy "patio homes" next door won't be too thrilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Took a closer look at this site yesterday. That will be a mighty tight fit for 252 apartments, and I imagine the folks who just bought the crappy "patio homes" next door won't be too thrilled.I'd only describe it as tight once the density pushes above about 32 units per acre; 26 units per acre is your garden-variety garden-style apartment complex. Very typical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 This notice is primarily informational, but as neighboring residents I think we can all agree that the impact of such a project will create traffic problems, drainage concerns, and add to student population at both Taylor High School and NCE which are both within walking distance of the property. It could also have a detrimental effect on the home values throughout our area. Be on the lookout for notification of a public hearing or meeting which is mandatory for such a project.Traffic problems and drainage concerns are red herrings. You might notice a difference in traffic if they built a half dozen of these in the immediate area. Also, the development will be required to provide adequate on-site stormwater detention; it'll probably help drainage, on net.True enough, though...there will be more poor and more brown-skinned kiddoes at local schools. The perceptions fostered by their presence will no doubt scare away some proportion of prospective homebuyers and that will impact home values. I can certainly understand your concerns. I, myself, would rather tolerate WASPy classism and racism than take a hit in the pocketbook because such people no longer wanted to be my neighbor. So...best of luck to you, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Have you been to the proposed location, Niche? If not, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I would have no objection to them building the project on a more suitable plot of land closer to I-10 on Westgreen, just not right where they are proposing to build. Terrible location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Have you been to the proposed location, Niche? If not, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I would have no objection to them building the project on a more suitable plot of land closer to I-10 on Westgreen, just not right where they are proposing to build. Terrible location.Some years back, yes. Sites with an immediate proximity to this one seem suitable for and are occupied by other apartment complexes and even commercial properties with expansive surface parking lots that legitimately contribute to the traffic concern. I don't see how this project is inappropriate, in that regard. And in fact,with fewer sources of mortgage financing, affordable rental housing seems very appropriate for suburban sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usc619 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Dear friends in Grand Harbor and Falcon Point,First, I cannot express how great it was for our two neighborhoods to come together last year, and overwhelmingly crush the proposed low-income apartment complex that was slated to be built directly in our neighborhood's front yard.Unfortunately, the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs awards tax credits every year, and as long as we live in a part of the city with undeveloped land, we're going to be vulnerable to this. This year, we have another problem. A similar application has been filed for tax credits to build a proposed low income multi-family dwelling at 21077 Kingsland, just west of Westgreen. (77450 zip code). While this project isn't directly adjacent to our neighborhood like the last time, this is still within five miles of our homes. Close enough to affect property values, the crime rate, increase traffic, and even further crowd our already overburdened KISD schools. This is a big deal. Apartment complexes that receive these tax credits are required to rent more than one half of their units to individuals or families that earn less than 60% of the median income for Harris County, at an incredibly reduced rate, allowing those who could not normally afford housing in the area to do so, subsidized by your tax dollars.Nottingham Country, the neighborhood directly adjacent to the proposed site for these apartments, has already begun opposing the project. They have all of the information on their HOA website. Low Income HousingThe Katy Times has also run an article on this issue. The Katy Times > Archives > News > Low-income housing proposed on KingslandThe more letters our state senators and representatives receive, and the more letters we send to the TDHCA, the better the odds of this application being rejected. Just like we came together last year, we each need to do the following:1. Send a letter to state senator Joan Huffman, and another to state representative Bill Calligeri, referencing the application for project #10601 (by Cornerbrook Development Company), and urging them to send a formal letter of opposition against this project. The Nottingham Country website provides their addresses, e-mail, and phone numbers, but I'll copy and paste the information below as well. It doesn't hurt to call and e-mail in addition to sending a letter.2. Send a letter to the TDHCA, referencing the project by number and indicating our opposition to the project. Note that the TDHCA will give greater weight to public concerns such as traffic, overcrowded schools, lack of public transportation routes and employment in the area, and the like. They will disregard concerns relating to crime and property value as discriminatory.3. Also, only a small handful of us are on this e-mail list, so please, tell everyone on your street and call everyone you know in the neighborhood and have them do the same. Print or forward this e-mail and have all of your neighbors contact Senator Huffman, Representative Calligeri, and the TDHCA at the addresses below. 4. Once we know when the TDHCA hearing for this year will be scheduled, we'll pass along that information as well. Those of us who are able can attend the hearing and express opposition to the project in person.If any of you have questions or need help getting the word out, please do not hesitate to call or e-mail.Best Regards,Below are the addresses and phone numbers to assist you in sending letters and/or email to voice your support for or against the below proposed, project to be built in our area.When dealing with the State of Texas, reference the application for Project #10601October 21, 2010INFORMATION ON 252 UNIT APARTMENT PROJECT AT 21077 KINGSLANDDEVELOPER: CORNERBROOK DEVELOPMENT COMPANY Ð MR. GEORGE KALEH1025 DULLES AVENUE, STE. 815STAFFORD, TX 77477Phone: 281-261-90090COMMENTS, E-MAILS, LETTERS TO THE FOLLOWING:Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs Reference: PROJECT #10601Phone: 512-475-3340E-Mail: Teresa.Morales@tdhca.state.tx.us or Misael.Arroyo@tdhca.state.tx.usTexas House of Representatives, District 132Hon. Mr. Bill Callegari1550 Foxlake Drive, Ste. 120Houston, TX 77084Phone: 281-578-8484 Fax: 281-578-1674Austin Address: Room E-2 806 Capitol ExtensionAustin, TX 78701Phone: 512-463-0528 Fax: 512-463-7820E-Mail: Search for name at this web address: Texas House of RepresentativesTexas State Senator District 17 Sen. Joan HuffmanP. O. Box 12068Capitol StationAustin, TX 78711Phone: 512-463-0117 District Office:6217 EdloeHouston, TX 77005Phone: 713-662-3821E-Mail: Search for name at this web address: Stats about all US cities - real estate, relocation info, house prices, home value estimator, recent sales, cost of living, crime, race, income, photos, education, maps, weather, houses, schools, neighborhoods, and more. state.tx.us/75F/senate252 Unit Project on KingslandCornerbrook Development Company is proposing to build a low- to moderate-income, multifamily residential rental community in the 21077 block of Kingsland Boulevard.The Gardens on Kingsland will be a 252-unit apartment complex on approximately 9.621 acres near Provincial Boulevard between Westgreen and Mason.George Kaleh, owner and president of Cornerbrook, said an application for housing tax credit will be submitted to the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affair this week.Cornerbook is also hosting a developer informational meeting for the community next Tuesday, October 26 at 7 pm in the Taylor High School cafeteria.one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Thanks for the info usc619. I'll be forwarding to all of my Katy friends, as well as writing a couple of letters myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usc619 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Have you been to the proposed location, Niche? If not, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I would have no objection to them building the project on a more suitable plot of land closer to I-10 on Westgreen, just not right where they are proposing to build. Terrible location.I've been to it and it's very tight....this is going to be very weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 This is somewhat ironic in that several Katy-area churches come to downtown Houston to preach/feed the homeless. According to a thread or two around here that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katy_moonbeam Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 This is somewhat ironic in that several Katy-area churches come to downtown Houston to preach/feed the homeless. According to a thread or two around here that is.Your point LTAWACS ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katy_moonbeam Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 I attended the meeting at Taylor High School last night. It was very well attended, around 700 + people. I think this developer has sorely underestimated the influence that this group of well educated, well connected people will have on his ability to get this type of financing done to build a low income project. It was a well behaved but angry group and they intend to fight this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usc619 Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 I attended the meeting at Taylor High School last night. It was very well attended, around 700 + people. I think this developer has sorely underestimated the influence that this group of well educated, well connected people will have on his ability to get this type of financing done to build a low income project. It was a well behaved but angry group and they intend to fight this.I was also there and was very impress with the turnout.....I don't think it's going to make it IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Your point LTAWACS ?????I THINK his point was how people can be so supportive and charitable of the downtrodden homeless people as long as they are not living near them. But I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I THINK his point was how people can be so supportive and charitable of the downtrodden homeless people as long as they are not living near them. But I could be wrong.Just like when we lived in Midtown and Root Park was closing. There were proposals to move the feed the homeless action to Baldwin Park. We basically told the do gooders to stay the heck out of our park, and feed the needy in their own part of town. They were rather amazed at our vehemence. Quit messing with other folks neighborhoods by attracting trash and mess. We also hated teh loudspeaker preaching that went on with the food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I THINK his point was how people can be so supportive and charitable of the downtrodden homeless people as long as they are not living near them. But I could be wrong.Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Yes.That's about a wide of a generalization as I've ever seen. Since several Katy-area churches feed/support the homeless, it's hypocritical that other residents of Katy protest HUD housing in their neighborhood? Here's a thought - maybe, just maybe, they aren't the same people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 That's about a wide of a generalization as I've ever seen. Since several Katy-area churches feed/support the homeless, it's hypocritical that other residents of Katy protest HUD housing in their neighborhood? Here's a thought - maybe, just maybe, they aren't the same people.Maybe not all. Maybe some are. Where is TheNiche and his simple Venn diagrams when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Maybe not all. Maybe some are. Where is TheNiche and his simple Venn diagrams when you need him?Regardless, Why do you find a Dichotomy with those that feed the homeless and at the same time are concerned with their property values? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usc619 Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I was also there and was very impress with the turnout.....I don't think it's going to make it IMHO.I guess I was right My linkAnother one bites the dust! Don't mess with Katy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I guess I was right My linkAnother one bites the dust! Don't mess with Katy!Excellent! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Regardless, Why do you find a Dichotomy with those that feed the homeless and at the same time are concerned with their property values?Lol.... all I can say is LOL.... You have no idea what you're saying boy do you? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAZ Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I guess I was right My linkAnother one bites the dust! Don't mess with Katy!I live nowhere near Katy, but I'm glad to hear you fought it off. Every dollar they spend to build new projects on open land, is a dollar that can't be used to fix substandard housing. They really need to bring that money back to neighborhoods in Houston; to turn crime ridden slums into safe, decent housing for working people.I also want to thank you for the list of contacts in your October 25 post. I've sent an invitation to the TDHCA, to come to a neighborhood meeting and talk about what can be done to turn around blighted complexes. I hope they accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I live nowhere near Katy, but I'm glad to hear you fought it off. Every dollar they spend to build new projects on open land, is a dollar that can't be used to fix substandard housing. They really need to bring that money back to neighborhoods in Houston; to turn crime ridden slums into safe, decent housing for working people.I also want to thank you for the list of contacts in your October 25 post. I've sent an invitation to the TDHCA, to come to a neighborhood meeting and talk about what can be done to turn around blighted complexes. I hope they accept.That statement is inaccurate and belies a gross misunderstanding of the federal legislation, state administration, and private financial reality of housing tax credits. Only a fraction of every dollar spent on new projects can be recouped by the developer or ultimate owner of tax credit housing. The incentive that is in place is intended to be only just large enough to make the project marginally feasible. Without the incentive, the vast majority of the money would've been invested in housing for the affluent within our society that can afford it at full cost.Moreover--and I've pointed this out to you before--most Tax Credit projects in our region are already in central Houston, as you advocate that they be. THE ONLY REASON IT SEEMS LIKE TAX CREDIT HOUSING FREQUENTLY GETS BUILT IN AFFLUENT AREAS IS BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY TIME YOU HEAR ABOUT IT!!! It is sad that you do not realize that building dense working-class housing in marginal working-class neighborhoods does absolutely nothing to create the low-crime utopia that you envision. In fact, by lumping those with the least economic opportunity together, your proposal (the present reality!) contributes to the problem and fosters the continuance of social decay.And yes, because we've already had this conversation before, I already anticipate your counter-argument, that you want old housing renovated and that that will somehow magically cause crime to go away. It won't. It'll move down the street (perhaps to Katy). The TDHCA has neither the funding to price riff-raff out of the State, nor the inclination or authority to deport said riff-raff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAZ Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 The incentive that is in place is intended to be only just large enough to make the project marginally feasible. Without the incentive, the vast majority of the money would've been invested in housing for the affluent within our society that can afford it at full cost.Of course developers shy away from low-income housing. They also shy away from renovations. And they especially shy away from the renovation of low income housing.There are a lot of reasons for it: Unknown existing conditions lead to risk. Demolition costs drive up the project cost.... But this is exactly why incentives are especially important for the renovation of low-income housing.Moreover most Tax Credit projects in our region are already in central Houston, as you advocate that they be. THE ONLY REASON IT SEEMS LIKE TAX CREDIT HOUSING FREQUENTLY GETS BUILT IN AFFLUENT AREAS IS BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY TIME YOU HEAR ABOUT IT!!! I challenge you to show me specific apartment complexes where the TDHCA is using tax credits to incentivize the renovation of low-income multifamily housing in Houston. Give me names, or at least a website with names. I've searched high and low, and if the TDHCA is doing it, they're keeping one hell of a secret.By contrast, I could give you a long list of apartment complexes in Houston that are in desperate need of repair, and could use a healthy dose of incentives to get the ball rolling.building dense working-class housing in marginal working-class neighborhoods does absolutely nothing to [lessen crime]. In fact, by lumping those with the least economic opportunity together, your proposal (the present reality!) contributes to the problem and fosters the continuance of social decay.We're not talking about "building [more] dense working class housing in marginal working class neighborhoods." That's a recipe for disaster. We're talking about the repair and replacement of blighted properties. It sounds like a subtle differentiation to make, but from a neighborhood standpoint, it's huge.Ultimately, my argument remains the same: they need to FIX BAD APARTMENTS IN HOUSTON before they go way out to Katy to build new subsidized housing on open land. What they're doing now is the urban equivalent of buying a new car, and leaving the old one to rot on the front lawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Of course developers shy away from low-income housing. They also shy away from renovations. And they especially shy away from the renovation of low income housing.There are a lot of reasons for it: Unknown existing conditions lead to risk. Demolition costs drive up the project cost.... But this is exactly why incentives are especially important for the renovation of low-income housing.There is one reason that new construction and remodeling is designed for people that can afford it; developers want a profit. And renovation/repositioning plays are often quite lucrative because the risk is reflected in high cap rates, meaning that the cost of acquiring a crap property is low enough to absorb several major setbacks.I challenge you to show me specific apartment complexes where the TDHCA is using tax credits to incentivize the renovation of low-income multifamily housing in Houston. Give me names, or at least a website with names. I've searched high and low, and if the TDHCA is doing it, they're keeping one hell of a secret.I already did that several months ago for you on a similar thread. A list of every Tax Credit property in the entire state is available on the TDHCA's Housing Tax Credit home page. This time, you do it. Maybe then, you won't so conveniently forget the results.By contrast, I could give you a long list of apartment complexes in Houston that are in desperate need of repair, and could use a healthy dose of incentives to get the ball rolling.Since I met your challenge (in mere seconds), I expect for you to live up to your part of your own bargain.We're not talking about "building [more] dense working class housing in marginal working class neighborhoods." That's a recipe for disaster. We're talking about the repair and replacement of blighted properties. It sounds like a subtle differentiation to make, but from a neighborhood standpoint, it's huge.Ultimately, my argument remains the same: they need to FIX BAD APARTMENTS IN HOUSTON before they go way out to Katy to build new subsidized housing on open land. What they're doing now is the urban equivalent of buying a new car, and leaving the old one to rot on the front lawn.By and large, "building [more] dense working class housing in marginal working class neighborhoods," is what TDHCA is doing. As for what you claim to advocate: fixing bad apartments won't fix bad people. Displace bad people from inside the Beltway and they'll move to places like Spring and Katy. Doing what you propose is the urban equivalent of buying a recent model year used car and abandoning your smoke-sputtering jalopy in the dark of night, a few neighborhoods away, where nobody knows you, and then bragging about it anonymously on an internet forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAZ Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Since I met your challenge, I expect for you to live up to your part of your own bargain.---In and around my Super Neighborhood we have:- Le Promenade Condominiums at 7400 Bissonnet*- Houston Westlake (formerly known as the Kingsgate Village)**- The St. James Place on Fondren Road.- The Ridgestone Apartments on Fondren Road.- The Rockport on Nairn off South Gessner- The Woodscape Apartments on South Gessner- Braes Hollow on South Braeswood- Stoneriver Apartments at the intersection of South Braeswood and Bissonnet.* Le Promenade Condominiums are primarily owned by a man named Guo 'Peter' Li from Bellaire, and are rented out as apartments. They are by far the worst in our area. General consensus is that they should be demolished.** The Houston Westlake (formerly the Kingsgate Village) was actually getting long overdue repairs. But the owners ran out of money, and work has been stalled for the last six months. The Houston Buildings and Standards Commission has given them until February to get working again. I don't know how they'll do it without money, though.---Again, this is just for one Super Neighborhood - a small portion of Southwest Houston. We have a population of a little over 22,000 people - and I could easily find eight apartment complexes that are in desperate need of repair and reinvestment. None of these properties show up on the TDHCA list. In fact, I couldn't find anything on there in this zip code!I apologize that I didn't expand the list city-wide. Oh if only I were back in grad school and had the time. :-) If you go by the ratios of population to bad apartment complexes, I'd expect the City of Houston to have almost 700 complexes that are similarly in need of attention, and not on the TDHCA list. But the TDHCA still encourages developers to go out to Katy, to build new low-income housing on virgin fields next to angry neighbors.fixing bad apartments won't fix bad people. Displace bad people from inside the Beltway and they'll move to places like Spring and Katy. Not if they displace those bad people to jail instead of just sweeping them from neighborhood to neighborhood. 'Weed and seed' programs actually do this. They combine efforts on revitalization with parallel efforts on crime prevention and law enforcement. Sorry I wasn't more explicit about it 18 months ago, but I have always envisioned 'weed and seed' as being integral to fixing these bad complexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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