Freedom Of Speech And Islam

[Deut28Thirteen]

I was upset after reading this article. The Pakistan goverment may investigate the founder of Facebook and others for the Draw Muhammad facebook page. Every other major religion can be depicted in shows like The Simpsons and Southpark or in politcal and religious cartoons, but not Islam. Growing up in America where Free speech is one of the cornerstones of the founding of our country I find it hard to believe that someone could be put to death for a drawing. If someone wants to draw Muhammad in America it is their right and they should not be afraid to do so.

[TheNiche]

I was upset after reading this article. The Pakistan goverment may investigate the founder of Facebook and others for the Draw Muhammad facebook page. Every other major religion can be depicted in shows like The Simpsons and Southpark or in politcal and religious cartoons, but not Islam. I find this notion to be ridiculous due to my growing up in America where Free speech is one of the cornerstones of the founding of our country. If someone wants to draw Muhammad let them be. If any one does not agree I would like to hear your argument because you are allowed to have your opinion and that is what makes this country great.

Yeah, I was pretty pissed off about South Park episode 201. Comedy Central gave in to extremism. They won. I don't blame the Islamic extremists; they can't be reasoned with. I blame us for giving them credence.

[AtticaFlinch]

I blame us for giving them credence.

Once we drain that miserable piece of real estate of all its oil and natural gas, we can finally let the people of the Middle East return to living in caves and shooting each other over well water rights. That day can't come soon enough.

Also, in your subtitle to this thread, you've implored us to please be respectful. Frankly, despite Islam's historical significance in helping to bring Europe out of their own religiously restrictive dark ages, I see very little in the religion to respect. So many times you hear from Muslims that Islam is actually not a religion of violence, that's it's a religion of peace, and that these extremists are a fringe minority, but I disagree. Fringe minorities rarely have such a stranglehold on their own political systems. Governments aren't run for long periods of time by the fringe. These theocratic governments exist because the people of those countries want them to exist. They have a mandate to exist, and when they do things like issue fatwas calling for Salmon Rushdie's head or, as now, criminally investigate whether or not they can issue an execution order for Mark Zuckerberg, it's not our fault. It's the fault of the dipshjt's who live in those countries and believe their retarded fairy tale so fervently as to demand their deaths for the crime of not being dumb enough to be duped by their hokey religion.

But, if it is true as the moderate Muslims say, and the extremists are the minority, then those moderates need to start talking a lot louder. Because, who cares how tolerant the religion may be if the people who put a public face on it also have a bomb in their underpants? I know I don't, and since it's too difficult to discern the good ones from the bad ones based on appearance, they're making the whole civilized part of the world retract into a medieval mindset where we've begun to discard our enlightenment values just to feel safer. If any moderate Muslim is reading this, know that the onus is now on you. You don't have a right to not be offended, and you definitely don't have a right to kill someone for offending you. If you truly are not an extremist, then you'll agree with that. If you aren't an extremist, then you need to find a way to fix your own religion. Otherwise, between our Christian nuts over here and the Hindu nuts in India, the Middle East may be blown off the map. That region, full to the brim with sacred sites and shrines, will never know peace. And if Islam's truly a religion of peace, then peace should be the goal.

[Marksmu]

Once we drain that miserable piece of real estate of all its oil and natural gas, we can finally let the people of the Middle East return to living in caves and shooting each other over well water rights. That day can't come soon enough.

Also, in your subtitle to this thread, you've implored us to please be respectful. Frankly, despite Islam's historical significance in helping to bring Europe out of their own religiously restrictive dark ages, I see very little in the religion to respect. So many times you hear from Muslims that Islam is actually not a religion of violence, that's it's a religion of peace, and that these extremists are a fringe minority, but I disagree. Fringe minorities rarely have such a stranglehold on their own political systems. Governments aren't run for long periods of time by the fringe. These theocratic governments exist because the people of those countries want them to exist. They have a mandate to exist, and when they do things like issue fatwas calling for Salmon Rushdie's head or, as now, criminally investigate whether or not they can issue an execution order for Mark Zuckerberg, it's not our fault. It's the fault of the dipshjt's who live in those countries and believe their retarded fairy tale so fervently as to demand their deaths for the crime of not being dumb enough to be duped by their hokey religion.

But, if it is true as the moderate Muslims say, and the extremists are the minority, then those moderates need to start talking a lot louder. Because, who cares how tolerant the religion may be if the people who put a public face on it also have a bomb in their underpants? I know I don't, and since it's too difficult to discern the good ones from the bad ones based on appearance, they're making the whole civilized part of the world retract into a medieval mindset where we've begun to discard our enlightenment values just to feel safer. If any moderate Muslim is reading this, know that the onus is now on you. You don't have a right to not be offended, and you definitely don't have a right to kill someone for offending you. If you truly are not an extremist, then you'll agree with that. If you aren't an extremist, then you need to find a way to fix your own religion. Otherwise, between our Christian nuts over here and the Hindu nuts in India, the Middle East may be blown off the map. That region, full to the brim with sacred sites and shrines, will never know peace. And if Islam's truly a religion of peace, then peace should be the goal.

I have never agreed more with anything you have written. That may scare you - being that I disagree with nearly everything you write. You must be becoming close minded, intolerant, and hypocritical just like me. Great post though. I completely agree. Fix the MANY problems in islam, before you even attempt to have other people lend credence or respect to it.

its funny how the muslim countries are always fraught with wars, bombs, riots, etc, but the countries where the muslims are the minority are not....I dont find that to be coincidental. Muslim is not a religion of peace. Its an intolerant religion of belligerent idiots who want to kill everyone in the name of religion....

Any religion that thinks that alcohol is the devil, but heroin and other hard core drugs are acceptable, is just flat out of their mind.

[jgriff]

I work with a lot of people from the Middle East and of course many of them are muslim. At one company where I worked we had to provide them with a special bathroom. I'm not sure what they do in there. Maybe someone can enlighten us. Whatever it is they seem to leave a lot of wet toilet paper and cups of water in the stalls. It made it very difficult for the rest of the people in the office because the number of toilets in the building was cut in half. We also have to go to sensitivity training to make sure we don't offend them.

I have a lot of Muslim friends that are younger and are not radical at all. I don't think they have the stereotypical attitude you hear about in the news.

I also have a female friend who is of Iranian descent but is as American as they come. She recently quit her job and went to Iran for several months because her parents had arranged a marriage for her. I was surprised that a sophisticated, Americanized woman would go to live in Iran when there are things like this going on...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.fbcf8186298b2e778498b791229a7397.351&show_article=1

She was back at work a few months later. I never asked her what happened.

[Gary]

Once we drain that miserable piece of real estate of all its oil and natural gas, we can finally let the people of the Middle East return to living in caves and shooting each other over well water rights. That day can't come soon enough.

Also, in your subtitle to this thread, you've implored us to please be respectful. Frankly, despite Islam's historical significance in helping to bring Europe out of their own religiously restrictive dark ages, I see very little in the religion to respect. So many times you hear from Muslims that Islam is actually not a religion of violence, that's it's a religion of peace, and that these extremists are a fringe minority, but I disagree. Fringe minorities rarely have such a stranglehold on their own political systems. Governments aren't run for long periods of time by the fringe. These theocratic governments exist because the people of those countries want them to exist. They have a mandate to exist, and when they do things like issue fatwas calling for Salmon Rushdie's head or, as now, criminally investigate whether or not they can issue an execution order for Mark Zuckerberg, it's not our fault. It's the fault of the dipshjt's who live in those countries and believe their retarded fairy tale so fervently as to demand their deaths for the crime of not being dumb enough to be duped by their hokey religion.

But, if it is true as the moderate Muslims say, and the extremists are the minority, then those moderates need to start talking a lot louder. Because, who cares how tolerant the religion may be if the people who put a public face on it also have a bomb in their underpants? I know I don't, and since it's too difficult to discern the good ones from the bad ones based on appearance, they're making the whole civilized part of the world retract into a medieval mindset where we've begun to discard our enlightenment values just to feel safer. If any moderate Muslim is reading this, know that the onus is now on you. You don't have a right to not be offended, and you definitely don't have a right to kill someone for offending you. If you truly are not an extremist, then you'll agree with that. If you aren't an extremist, then you need to find a way to fix your own religion. Otherwise, between our Christian nuts over here and the Hindu nuts in India, the Middle East may be blown off the map. That region, full to the brim with sacred sites and shrines, will never know peace. And if Islam's truly a religion of peace, then peace should be the goal.

We don't generally agree on religious and political issues, but that was a damn good post and couldn't have been stated better.

[20thStDad]

I work with a lot of people from the Middle East and of course many of them are muslim. At one company where I worked we had to provide them with a special bathroom. I'm not sure what they do in there. Maybe someone can enlighten us. Whatever it is they seem to leave a lot of wet toilet paper and cups of water in the stalls. It made it very difficult for the rest of the people in the office because the number of toilets in the building was cut in half. We also have to go to sensitivity training to make sure we don't offend them.

You probably don't want to know. Just be happy to have the separate bathroom, otherwise you'd have a whole new set of things to question. Strange noises...that's all I'm going to say for now.

[Fringe]

So true, everything you said. Muslims wonder why they are disliked, well if they could learn how to separate church from state than there would be no problem. Hell, they cannot even get along with themselves as evident with the different Iraq sects that cannot agree on anything. Eventually they will kill each other without our help. 

Once we drain that miserable piece of real estate of all its oil and natural gas, we can finally let the people of the Middle East return to living in caves and shooting each other over well water rights. That day can't come soon enough.

Also, in your subtitle to this thread, you've implored us to please be respectful. Frankly, despite Islam's historical significance in helping to bring Europe out of their own religiously restrictive dark ages, I see very little in the religion to respect. So many times you hear from Muslims that Islam is actually not a religion of violence, that's it's a religion of peace, and that these extremists are a fringe minority, but I disagree. Fringe minorities rarely have such a stranglehold on their own political systems. Governments aren't run for long periods of time by the fringe. These theocratic governments exist because the people of those countries want them to exist. They have a mandate to exist, and when they do things like issue fatwas calling for Salmon Rushdie's head or, as now, criminally investigate whether or not they can issue an execution order for Mark Zuckerberg, it's not our fault. It's the fault of the dipshjt's who live in those countries and believe their retarded fairy tale so fervently as to demand their deaths for the crime of not being dumb enough to be duped by their hokey religion.

But, if it is true as the moderate Muslims say, and the extremists are the minority, then those moderates need to start talking a lot louder. Because, who cares how tolerant the religion may be if the people who put a public face on it also have a bomb in their underpants? I know I don't, and since it's too difficult to discern the good ones from the bad ones based on appearance, they're making the whole civilized part of the world retract into a medieval mindset where we've begun to discard our enlightenment values just to feel safer. If any moderate Muslim is reading this, know that the onus is now on you. You don't have a right to not be offended, and you definitely don't have a right to kill someone for offending you. If you truly are not an extremist, then you'll agree with that. If you aren't an extremist, then you need to find a way to fix your own religion. Otherwise, between our Christian nuts over here and the Hindu nuts in India, the Middle East may be blown off the map. That region, full to the brim with sacred sites and shrines, will never know peace. And if Islam's truly a religion of peace, then peace should be the goal.

[AtticaFlinch]

You probably don't want to know. Just be happy to have the separate bathroom, otherwise you'd have a whole new set of things to question. Strange noises...that's all I'm going to say for now.

Anybody else bothered by the fact Muslims in jgriff's office are given a "separate but equal" restroom? What's next, Muslim-only water fountains and Muslim-only restaurants?

[porTENT]

Islam needs a Reformation like the Catholic Church went through in the 16th century.

[AtticaFlinch]

Islam needs a Reformation like the Catholic Church went through in the 16th century.

Muslim countries need publicly funded schools that teach things like science and logic and sex education.

And how to take a joke, because really... a Facebook group makes them want to kill? If that's the way they react to seeing Mohammad, I'd hate to see the way they react to a Yo Mama joke.

Is anyone interested in starting an internet meme with Yo Mohammad jokes? (ie. Yo Mohammad so fat, when he sit aroun' tha house, he sit aroun' the house!)

[Fringe]

Is anyone interested in starting an internet meme with Yo Mohammad jokes? (ie. Yo Mohammad so fat, when he sit aroun' tha house, he sit aroun' the house!)

Infidel!

[AtticaFlinch]

Infidel!

Yo Mohammad so stupid, he think Taco Bell be a Mexican phone company.

[Deut28Thirteen]

That comment would most likely land someone in trouble in even the most moderen or westernized muslim countries like Turkey and UAE. Here in America we can draw or have yo muhammod jokes because that is our right. In every faith there are some type of rules or laws that people come up with that might seem strange to others, but those laws are not forced on the rest of the world. It is also not meet with such harsh punishment such as death to its followers and definetly not to people of a diffrent religion(at least not in the 21st century anyway). Grow up.

[AtticaFlinch]

That comment would most likely land someone in trouble in even the most moderen or westernized muslim countries like Turkey and UAE. Here in America we can draw or have yo muhammod jokes because that is our right. In every faith there are some type of rules or laws that people come up with that might seem strange to others, but those laws are not forced on the rest of the world. It is also not meet with such harsh punishment such as death to its followers and definetly not to people of a diffrent religion(at least not in the 21st century anyway).

Yeah well, there's the big difference. We're not in the Middle East, nor is Mark Zuckerberg, nor is Salmon Rushdie, nor was Theo Van Gogh. If I was in the Middle East, I'd respect the rules of the country I was in. I'd totally throw battery acid in a woman's face if she spurned my advances, and I'm certain I'd join the firing squad to kill a woman that was raped. (Because it was totally her fault, yo. She shouldn't have revealed so much of her eyeballs.)

Faith statutes are generally dumb. Faith statutes that arbitrarily enforce death penalties for inane, innocuous acts are dumb and dangerous.

Grow up.

Yo Mohammad so fat, when he cut he bleed bacon grease.

[TheNiche]

(Because it was totally her fault, yo. She shouldn't have revealed so much of her eyeballs.)

Hey, you'd probably want your daughter to cover herself and be escorted around too, if she were in a position to get hit on by middle eastern guys. They are notoriously aggressive; like it or not, advertising the goods is asking for it.

[marmer]

Hey, you'd probably want your daughter to cover herself and be escorted around too, if she were in a position to get hit on by middle eastern guys. They are notoriously aggressive; like it or not, advertising the goods is asking for it.

This in a nutshell is the difference between Islamic and Western culture. The whole reason behind the burqa and the headscarf is that men can't be trusted to behave if they see a woman's face or hair, let alone anything else. That plus a strong tradition of virtual if not actual ownership of dependent females.

[AtticaFlinch]

Hey, you'd probably want your daughter to cover herself and be escorted around too, if she were in a position to get hit on by middle eastern guys. They are notoriously aggressive; like it or not, advertising the goods is asking for it.

No, I'd want her to have a CHL, a dead aim and no reservations with killing a man. I wouldn't want her quality of life to suffer because some sexually repressed dudes can't contain their wieners. If the state didn't mandate internet blocks for certain types of sites, then they could just rub one out after they turn off the "safe search" filter on Google.

This in a nutshell is the difference between Islamic and Western culture. The whole reason behind the burqa and the headscarf is that men can't be trusted to behave if they see a woman's face or hair, let alone anything else. That plus a strong tradition of virtual if not actual ownership of dependent females.

Yo Mohammad so loose, he wear a mattress like a backpack.

[Ross]

Anybody else bothered by the fact Muslims in jgriff's office are given a "separate but equal" restroom? What's next, Muslim-only water fountains and Muslim-only restaurants?

That's way overboard. In the actual MIddle East, where I've spent quite a bit of time, we all used the same bathrooms, segregated only by sex. There were more stalls with doors, because the attire worn by males has to be removed before using the toilet. The toilet paper is used to dry the hands after using water to clean the body. It's not wrong, disgusting, or anything other than different. In the Gulf region, there's a sprayer in each stall for cleaning. In Egypt, there was a piece of tubing that sprayed water directly upwards. In the Far East, most toilets are a hole in the floor, and you squat to use them. The folks in that part of the world think we are insane to put our backsides on a surface where someone else's backside has been. In Peru, there's a trash can for used toilet paper, because their sewers are not up to handling paper.

[AtticaFlinch]

That's way overboard. In the actual MIddle East, where I've spent quite a bit of time, we all used the same bathrooms, segregated only by sex.

It's kinda strange how you're expected to conform to their lifestyle while in their country, but they don't expect to conform to our mores when they're over here. It's a double-standard, pure and simple.

In my office this morning, we were discussing another client's office, perhaps even where jgriff works for all I know. Apparently they've been importing tons of Saudis which has completely altered their office and lowered the employee morale. There's a double standard which permeates maliciously throughout the building, and beyond just the bathroom segregation, board rooms have been turned into prayer rooms and the women in this particular company are treated like absolute garbage. There's no expectation on the part of the American employers that the Saudi workers should adhere to that old axiom of "When in Rome..." Instead, they expect the American employees to bend over backwards to appease the Saudis.

Now I realize this is more an issue of Saudi cultural intractability than just Islam, but considering Saudi Arabia is ground zero for Wahhabi fundamentalism, many of the worst qualities attributed to fanatic Muslims begin there.

There were more stalls with doors, because the attire worn by males has to be removed before using the toilet. The toilet paper is used to dry the hands after using water to clean the body. It's not wrong, disgusting, or anything other than different. In the Gulf region, there's a sprayer in each stall for cleaning. In Egypt, there was a piece of tubing that sprayed water directly upwards. In the Far East, most toilets are a hole in the floor, and you squat to use them. The folks in that part of the world think we are insane to put our backsides on a surface where someone else's backside has been. In Peru, there's a trash can for used toilet paper, because their sewers are not up to handling paper.

Yo Mohammad so dirty, he turn the local swimmin' pool into tha dead sea.

[Fringe]

Hey this is America. We have double standards for every race and religion. Don't you know it would be politically incorrect not to?  

[jgriff]

It's kinda strange how you're expected to conform to their lifestyle while in their country, but they don't expect to conform to our mores when they're over here. It's a double-standard, pure and simple.

In my office this morning, we were discussing another client's office, perhaps even where jgriff works for all I know. Apparently they've been importing tons of Saudis which has completely altered their office and lowered the employee morale.

I've worked on projects for the Saudis before. They set minimum staffing requirements for Saudi citizens. Their government sees the project they fund as a means of providing employment for their citizens.

[tanith27]

It's kinda strange how you're expected to conform to their lifestyle while in their country, but they don't expect to conform to our mores when they're over here. It's a double-standard, pure and simple.

Perhaps. Or one could say western society is much more culturally tolerant than most so we go out of our way to welcome others. If we didn't tolerate others, you might as well call us the United States of Arabia.

[AtticaFlinch]

Perhaps. Or one could say western society is much more culturally tolerant than most so we go out of our way to welcome others. If we didn't tolerate others, you might as well call us the United States of Arabia.

Or France. Either way, it doesn't belie my assertion that the world will be a lot better off when the Middle East has been drained of all useful, exploitable materials and that the people of the area can return to their caves and other bass-ackwards ways.

Almost forgot...

Yo Mohammad so backwards, I tol' him Ramadan was aroun' tha corner an' he went lookin'.

[editor]

Almost forgot...

Yo Mohammad so backwards, I tol' him Ramadan was aroun' tha corner an' he went lookin'.

This is unnecessary.

The moderators asked me about the one-liners you keep posting in this thread. Here is my response to them:

I think he's trying to channel Chris Rock. But he's not doing it to be funny or to make a point, he's just doing it for attention.

There's nothing wrong with deleting or hiding posts that contribute nothing to the discussion. This would appear to be one of those posts. It's little more than "Me too!"

If you can't stay on topic and be civil and intelligent, then you will find your posts edited for content. And before you go screaming like a little baby about "ZOMG! CENSORSHIP!!!!111!!Elebenty" get over yourself. It's not censorship. Thinking it is just illustrates how ignorant you are of true censorship issues.

[VicMan]

It's kinda strange how you're expected to conform to their lifestyle while in their country, but they don't expect to conform to our mores when they're over here. It's a double-standard, pure and simple.

The countries where Westerners are forced to conform are Saudi and (to an extent) Iran. In Saudi and the Maldives they do not allow open practice of other religions, but in the latter they cannot totally expect Westerners to conform to Islamic standards as the Maldives is a resort paradise country. Saudi is the only country that severely restricts Westerners/non-Muslims (except on compounds) - but Saudi is also a very large country. To a degree Iran restricts non-Muslims/Westerners.

In Europe France banned the burqa, and France and Turkey limit the wearing of religious clothing in some public settings/circumstances.

[AtticaFlinch]

This is unnecessary.

The moderators asked me about the one-liners you keep posting in this thread. Here is my response to them:

I think he's trying to channel Chris Rock. But he's not doing it to be funny or to make a point, he's just doing it for attention.

There's nothing wrong with deleting or hiding posts that contribute nothing to the discussion. This would appear to be one of those posts. It's little more than "Me too!"

I disagree with your conclusion as to my motivations, but you are right in that I'm not doing it to be funny. If I was, I'd have used a better format than modified Yo Mama jokes. More than anything else, I was curious how long I could get away with making unfounded disparaging remarks against a religion that few people profess faith in (at least in this country and on this board). Four times, it turns out. I'll refrain from doing it going forward.

If you can't stay on topic and be civil and intelligent, then you will find your posts edited for content. And before you go screaming like a little baby about "ZOMG! CENSORSHIP!!!!111!!Elebenty" get over yourself. It's not censorship. Thinking it is just illustrates how ignorant you are of true censorship issues.

To borrow a word from George W Bush, you've misunderestimated me. It's your website. I know I don't own anything written here. Don't jump the gun, Mother Superior.

[Porchman]

The matter in Pakistan is more of politics than of religion. Pakistan is trying to grow with the rest of the World. However, provincial views are challenging that aspiration. The politicians are trying to address those views.

Provincial views challenge the aspiration of understanding elsewhere. May we, in Houston, be more worldly, more patient, and, perhaps, more Christian to recognize and tolerate the swells of extremism. In that, may we grow what is revered about our Nation and our City.

[marmer]

This is unnecessary.

The moderators asked me about the one-liners you keep posting in this thread. Here is my response to them:

If you can't stay on topic and be civil and intelligent, then you will find your posts edited for content. And before you go screaming like a little baby about "ZOMG! CENSORSHIP!!!!111!!Elebenty" get over yourself. It's not censorship. Thinking it is just illustrates how ignorant you are of true censorship issues.

Your forum, your rules, blah, blah, blah. Still, why wasn't this exchange simply a private message between the editor and AtticaFlinch? And considering that earlier posts in this discussion concerned the tendency of some Muslims to react with threats of violence to the kind of humorous references that other religions routinely "endure," I'm not so sure this is not on topic.

[BryanS]

This in a nutshell is the difference between Islamic and Western culture. The whole reason behind the burqa and the headscarf is that men can't be trusted to behave if they see a woman's face or hair, let alone anything else. That plus a strong tradition of virtual if not actual ownership of dependent females.

That's right.

Hey.... here's an idea...

Instead of burqas for women...

How about chastity belts for men?

Seems to be more effective to control those "male urges" than women's attire...

Also.. of the 'observant' muslim women I've seen, in Houston... none of them smile.

Something is terribly wrong.