RIP Big 12

[Houston19514]

Baylor has zero chance of going to the Pac16 and it wouldn't matter if they beat the longhorns and aggies every year and were the reigning big xii champs.

Baylor is a private Baptist university. For a team to be offered an invite the the Pac10, every single member has to approve first.

There are too many liberal campuses like Cal-Berkley that want nothing to do with them.

Nonsense. That's easy for everyone to say and believe to the core of their souls as long as Baylor in fact does not beat the Longhorns and Aggies every year and is not the reigning Big XII champ. But if they did and were... it would be an entirely different story. The experience of the last month or so should make it clear beyond question that only one thing matters in conference alignments and college football affiliations and that is the ability to bring money to the table. If Baylor had that ability, nobody in Berkeley or LA would bat an eye at accepting them into the PAC 10/11/12/16/24.

[Highway6]

Nonsense. That's easy for everyone to say and believe to the core of their souls as long as Baylor in fact does not beat the Longhorns and Aggies every year and is not the reigning Big XII champ. But if they did and were... it would be an entirely different story. The experience of the last month or so should make it clear beyond question that only one thing matters in conference alignments and college football affiliations and that is the ability to bring money to the table. If Baylor had that ability, nobody in Berkeley or LA would bat an eye at accepting them into the PAC 10/11/12/16/24.

BYU - bad asses the past 4 years, finishing top 20 in BCS rankings each year.

Shares a state with only Univ. of Utah... so I'm guessing they contribute greatly to the SLC tv market.

Mormon

ND - obnoxious, Oh-So-money, Oh-so-historic, band wagon fans all over the country.

Catholic

It only takes one Pac 10 team to veto an invite. (see '94 Stanford vetoed Texas as the SWC was dying)

When BYU or ND gets accepted to the incredibly expansion-minded Pac 12/14/16/24 .. come back and we'll talk about Baylor's (hypothetical if they didn't suck) chances.

[RedScare]

If you believe Baylor was snubbed because of its religious charter, you do not understand what the whole realignment thing was all about. The only religion considered by the Pac 10 and others was the religion of money, expressed in the form of eyeballs looking at TV sets. In short, the other schools deliver eyeballs, Baylor does not. They average 34,000 fans per game, barely above the Division 1 threshold. You also probably subscribe to the TexAgs.com view of 'liberal schools'. For all the talk of liberal Berkeley, it is the town that is liberal, not so much Cal. Cal is full of egg-headed Asians students. Berkeley the town is full of unwashed hippies. Most assuredly, the hippies do not run Cal.

Why did the Pac 10 choose Colorado over Baylor? Oh, I don't know, why do you vacation in Denver instead of Waco? BYU is a slightly different animal. Because the strict Mormon rules forbid playing sports on Sundays, it can wreak havoc on a sports schedule. Utah, without the Sunday ban, still gives the Pac 10 a foothold in Utah and Salt Lake City. And it's not like Utah, with 85% of its students coming from in state, is not a religious school in its own right, the Princeton Review ranking it the 20th most religious school in the country.

[Houston19514]

BYU - bad asses the past 4 years, finishing top 20 in BCS rankings each year.

Shares a state with only Univ. of Utah... so I'm guessing they contribute greatly to the SLC tv market.

Mormon

ND - obnoxious, Oh-So-money, Oh-so-historic, band wagon fans all over the country.

Catholic

It only takes one Pac 10 team to veto an invite. (see '94 Stanford vetoed Texas as the SWC was dying)

When BYU or ND gets accepted to the incredibly expansion-minded Pac 12/14/16/24 .. come back and we'll talk about Baylor's (hypothetical if they didn't suck) chances.

I second RedScares post above.

In addition, Notre Dame has been turning down invitations to major conferences left and right for many years. I have no idea if the PAC 10 ever tried, but, really, even they are trying to keep things making some geographic sense.

[Highway6]

If you believe Baylor was snubbed because of its religious charter, you do not understand what the whole realignment thing was all about. The only religion considered by the Pac 10 and others was the religion of money...

Red... My response was based on 19514's hypothetical scenario that Baylor didn't suck, wasn't in a small tv market, and could bring in money. I know the reality of why Colorado was chosen and Baylor was not... but hey, thanks for paying attention.

If Baylor was successful, did have a big TV draw, cound bring in the money... they would be ND.

ND will fall in line if the multiple super conferences ever happen. They have a big rivalry with USC. Where was their Pac-10 invite... where was any interest from the Pac-10 ? ND can't ever say Yes if conferences don't keep asking.

I fully accept that money talks and this process is about money. But some conferences are special cases. I'm not sure if there is another conference besides the Pac-10 that requires a unanimous vote to accept a new member. There is your stumbling block, right there.

There are very few schools that I imagine could bring in so much money, that a wary Pac10 school would be willing to look the other way past their religious affiliation. Baylor will never be such a school. ND is such a school. Where is any article, rumour, anything that said the Pac 10 even considered inviting ND, the next biggest prize after Texas ???!?!

I second RedScares post above.

In addition, Notre Dame has been turning down invitations to major conferences left and right for many years. I have no idea if the PAC 10 ever tried, but, really, even they are trying to keep things making some geographic sense.

Red backed you up and shot me down.... We know you second his post, Capt. Obvious.

"should make it clear beyond question that only one thing matters in conference alignments and college football affiliations and that is the ability to bring money to the table."

That was a statement from your first post, then you use geography as an excuse as to why ND wasn't invited ?? Maybe you should listen to yourself.

The Pac-10 was willing to have 2000 miles separate their member schools in Eugene OR, and College Station TX.... And you think geography would stop them from inviting ND, the 2nd place prize after Texas ?!?!?!?

Wrong !!

[RedScare]

Well, since your opinions on Baylor and ND are so strong, I must assume that you have some inside information on these matters. Please share it with us, since I have never heard ND mentioned as a possible Pac 10 invite, only Big 10...and they turned them down.

[Highway6]

No stronger than your opinions, Red. You're the one that started in about the realities of the Denver market and ignored the fact we were talking about a hypotethical situation where Baylor was actually desirable... and your info is wrong. ND hasn't turned down anyone this go-round since they havent received an invitation from any conference this go-round.

The fact that you havent heard anything about a Pac-10 invite to ND only proves my point.

Geography barely matters. Certainly didn't matter with the desired reach the Pac-XX had in mind.

Money talks. ND is very very money.

Can you give me any reason why the PacXX didnt try to get ND?

The only explanation I can give is to point to the same sports articles and conventional wisdom ( ESPN and SI.. not Texags) that says the Pac10 wouldnt want BYU or Baylor for obvious reasons. You find me a good, non-religious affiliation reason, why the PacXX didnt at least make an inquiry to ND to see if they would be interested... then we'll talk about Baylor's hypothetical chances.

I know ND loves their independent identity.. but all their non-football programs play in the Big East. If super expansion happens and the Big East either merges or gets blown up... ND will have to join a conference. ND will have to go somewhere in super conferences happen. Any Conference would accept cash cow ND in a heart beat. Big But though..... with the Pac10.. its not up to the conference. It's up to each member school.

The Pac needed 6 schools. When it became obvious A&M wasn't interested.. they had an open slot. They started to pursue Kansas. Why didn't they pursue 2nd prize ND... why didnt we read one article saying the Pac 10 was interested in ND?

My guess is the conf already knows which schools will be vetoed by their members.

[Highway6]

Red, you and 19514 say expansion is only about money. While I agree, I accept that their are exceptions while you two don't.

If ( A ) Its only about money and ( B ) conventional wisdom says ND is money.. they are one of the top prizes in revenue, tv market, everything.

Then the Pac 10 should have at least expressed interest in ND. They didn't.

[20thStDad]

ND hasn't received an invitation from any conference simply because no conference is going to be officially rejected. They won't offer the invitation unless they know it will be accepted, and it won't.

[Highway6]

ND didnt receive an invite from the Pac10 because the conference knew it wouldnt fly in the conference.

I'm not talking only an official invitation. I'm talking articles, leaks, rumors, possible expansion lists... the kind of stuff we have seen on espn, cnnsi, frank the tank... the kind of stuff we have seen out of the Big Ten and Pac-10

A conference won't offer ND an invitation unless they know it will be accepted ?? Well, unless a dialogue is started and the idea is put forth, then there is zero way for any conference to ever know if ND would join them.

How do you think we knew about the Pac10's plans a week before the official invites went out. How did we know of the SEC's interest in Texas, Ou, and A&M before an official invite went out to A&M? ND isnt That special.. word would get out before an official invitation if a conference was interested in adding ND.

And you are ignoring what I said about ND having to join a conference if all hell breaks loose and Mega conferences happen. At that point.. yes.. all conferences will be unofficially interested in adding ND.. before any official invite can be sent out ... All conferences except the Pac 10, that is.

[RedScare]

I really would like to join in on the evil West Coast Atheist Conspiracy, but I cannot seem to stop laughing long enough to type anything. So, I'll just sit this one out and read your thoughts on the matter.

BTW, anything new on the Kennedy matter?

[ricco67]

I really would like to join in on the evil West Coast Atheist Conspiracy, but I cannot seem to stop laughing long enough to type anything. So, I'll just sit this one out and read your thoughts on the matter.

BTW, anything new on the Kennedy matter?

Nope. They are all still dead.

[Highway6]

I really would like to join in on the evil West Coast Atheist Conspiracy, but I cannot seem to stop laughing long enough to type anything. So, I'll just sit this one out and read your thoughts on the matter.

BTW, anything new on the Kennedy matter?

Red.. if only money matters, like you said.. and Notre Dame is soo money... why did the pac 10 express no interest ?

The answer isn't geography.. and the answer isn't ND can afford to stay independent when the mega alignment dominoes start to fall.

Big Ten expansion talks, wish lists, and rumors certainly have been throwing around ND as an option.

Both the Big Ten and Pac 10 have been looking at Texas.. 1500-2000 miles away.

IF you can't give me another reason why the Pac 10 expressed zero wish list interest in ND, then yes.. Go home, you might as well sit this one out.

PS... West Coast Atheist Conspiracy? Kennedy? I see you are referencing the part of your usual play book where you attempt to discredit your opponent with over exaggerating BS.. Sad.

[Highway6]

Looks like you're screwed Red... The wacko West Coast Atheist Conspirators have infiltrated Sporting News sites and Liberal newspapers already.

From Chip Brown at Orangebloods .... ( the hotbed of conservative conspiracy theorists)

One top source close to the possible merger between the Pac-10 and six Big 12 schools said some schools in the Pac-10, including California-Berkeley, have a real issue with adding an institution with religious ties like Baylor to the conference.

From the Silicon Valley Mercury News

One of those teams is kicked-to-the-curb Baylor, which is not on the Pac-10’s radar because it’s a (Baptist) church-affiliated school.

From Sporting News

When the conference was still considering Big 12 schools, there reportedly was reluctance to add Baylor because of its ties to the Baptist Church. So BYU's affiliation with the Mormon Church may have hurt its cause, as well.

From Bleacher Report

Also, Cal-Berkeley does not seem to like Baylor's Baptist roots, and would likely do anything they could to hinder Baylor's progress.

[N Judah]

The Pac-10 would love to have ND, but ND wouldn't get anything out of it. Already they have two decent rivalries with USC and Stanford, which even other schools in the Pac-10 cannot claim.

Univ. Utah is only about 20% mormon, and is much more of an academic-focused school than, say, BYU. Utah is a better team and is more likely to stay a better team, as they do not have the religious/cultural constraints that BYU faces when trying to get players to play for them. And even though BYU has had some up years lately, Utah still beats them.

[T 2 THA C]

I would love to see UH get in the BIG 12, but believe Texas and A&M do not want to be on an even playing field with regards to recruiting in Houston and Texas.

[Highway6]

I would love to see UH get in the BIG 12, but believe Texas and A&M do not want to be on an even playing field with regards to recruiting in Houston and Texas.

No.. we just don't wanna lose money. Splitting the pot 11 or 12 ways wouldn't have guaranteed Texas, Ou, or A&M enough money to come back to the Big Xii table.

There is zero incentive to add anyone at this point.

[brijonmang]

No.. we just don't wanna lose money. Splitting the pot 11 or 12 ways wouldn't have guaranteed Texas, Ou, or A&M enough money to come back to the Big Xii table.

There is zero incentive to add anyone at this point.

Plus, now that UT has a stranglehold on the conference, they are basically calling all the shots. With only 10 teams there will no longer be a conference championship game...making UT's road to the championship even easier. Why would they want to give that up?

[KinkaidAlum]

Univ. Utah is only about 20% mormon, and is much more of an academic-focused school than, say, BYU. Utah is a better team and is more likely to stay a better team, as they do not have the religious/cultural constraints that BYU faces when trying to get players to play for them. And even though BYU has had some up years lately, Utah still beats them.

Actually, most sources rank BYU as a better school than U of Utah.

Additionally, since 1980, BYU is 19-11 versus the Utes in football. They average 19,000 more fans per home game too (64,000 to 45,000). Going further, BYU has won a national championship in football while UU never has. Also, BYU has played in 28 bowl games since 1970 while the Utes have only been invited to 13 bowls.

[N Judah]

Actually, most sources rank BYU as a better school than U of Utah.

In what sense? I don't doubt they're ranked higher for undergrad in the sense that USC is ranked "better" in USNEWS than, say, UCSD...

Additionally, since 1980, BYU is 19-11 versus the Utes in football.

Lately?

[KinkaidAlum]

BYU won last year's Holy War.