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Evolution and What Is Science


LTAWACS

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That is to say, I won't back just any position. It has to be the correct position, even if that position is that I don't know the correct position.

Whatever that means.

Perhaps you should've joined the gay debate team, in high school.

There are always two sides, to every argument.

You have to go, both ways.

Something you learn, in debate.

Typing class, a stern English teacher, calculus, debate, and football...

...good parents, in a small town, public school...

Foundation for success in life. IMO.

Thank you, God.

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There are always two sides, to every argument.

You have to go, both ways.

Something you learn, in debate.

While you were on a gay debate team, I took logic coursework at the local community college. And that's how I know that the claim that there are two sides to every argument is a false bifurcation. There are in fact not always two sides to every argument. There are usually three or more sides; different stances on an issue are often sufficiently complex that they could be permuted in thousands of different ways. And that's something that debaters (and politicians in a two-party system) often lose sight of on account of the oppositional format that they become accustomed to.

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Attica, just because you claim to "believe in nothing" does not exempt you, your choice has made it easier for you to believe that evolution is the only logical answer for you. Sooooo, that is what you believe in. You don't have to believe in God, that's why he gave you freewill, you should thank Him for that at least. Seriously chief, you took one little statement and all the sudden you think I am a holy roller, ask some of the regulars around here, they can atest to the fact that I am no such animal. I love it when you get all bent out of shape because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs, thanks for the laugh.

I would say "bless your soul", but I remembered that you don't believe you have one.

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Attica, just because you claim to "believe in nothing" does not exempt you, your choice has made it easier for you to believe that evolution is the only logical answer for you. Sooooo, that is what you believe in. You don't have to believe in God, that's why he gave you freewill, you should thank Him for that at least. Seriously chief, you took one little statement and all the sudden you think I am a holy roller, ask some of the regulars around here, they can atest to the fact that I am no such animal. I love it when you get all bent out of shape because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs, thanks for the laugh.

Heh... Ok, whatever. I'll make sure to thank God for my free will in my prayers tonight. While I'm at it, I'll thank him for not allowing sea monsters to eat me when I kayak, and I'll ask him to let me have the pot of leprechaun gold at the end of the next rainbow I see. Oh, I'll also make sure to thank him for the rainbows and the promise it implies - not to destroy the Earth with a flood next time (it'll be a fire this time, thank God!). Thanks for the rainbows, God. Thanks for making prisms refract light, but only after Noah's flood. If there had been no flood, Pink Floyd probably wouldn't have been able to put out Dark Side of the Moon. I'll thank God for Dark Side of the Moon while I'm at it.

I would say "bless your soul", but I remembered that you don't believe you have one.

If it makes any difference to you, I don't believe you have a soul either.

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Science is the clear answer...and God made science, so there.

Reasonable people who believe in mythical deities can't ever lose arguments. We aren't constrained by someone else's definition of what our mythical deity is/does/did, and anything you come back with I will say was put there by God in the first place. Thread done.

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Science is the clear answer...and God made science, so there.

Reasonable people who believe in mythical deities can't ever lose arguments. We aren't constrained by someone else's definition of what our mythical deity is/does/did, and anything you come back with I will say was put there by God in the first place. Thread done.

LOL.

I would be willing to accept that.

Isn't science trying to figure out what god (if there was one) had in mind?

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Isn't science trying to figure out what god (if there was one) had in mind?

It is a fact that God exists. Nothing in this world comes from nothing.

Below is a warning that we should be greatful for from God to test ourselves to see if this is us or not. (To read starting in verse 1 through the entire book would be best for a better understanding within context; this is just an excerpt)

Romans 1:18-32 (emphasis mine)

...18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
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Isn't science trying to figure out what god (if there was one) had in mind?

Something to add concerning "trying to figure out what God had in mind."

I heard a good analogy of us trying to understand God and his plan (the discussion was actually into relation of trying to understand why he allows trials in our lives). Remember when we were kids and our parents told us to do something (and we didn't believe them because we didn't understand or acted as know-it-alls)? Even, think of a baby or toddler. A parent teaches a kid that it is not best to do something but we wanted it sooo bad, we just did not understand what the big deal was. Our parents could explain it to us, but it would go right over our head. Now we understand why as adults (hopefully).

God is not mortal like we are. He does not have a beginning (like us) or an end (none of us have an end). He spoke creation into existence. We can make rocket ships and go to mars, woohoo. God is perfectly greater, wiser, intelligent, loving, patient, EVERYTHING than us. The bible says he holds the world (or is it univierse?) in the palm of his hand. He created life and everything from nothing. We cannot.

We are not like God. If he were to try and explain everything to us, we would not be able to comprehend it in the slightest. We're not nearly as smart as we think we are. To completely understand his ways (He says his ways are not our ways...because we have depraved minds and are sinful) is impossible. That is why he wants us to trust him like a child trusts.

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Science is the clear answer...and God made science, so there.

Reasonable people who believe in mythical deities can't ever lose arguments. We aren't constrained by someone else's definition of what our mythical deity is/does/did, and anything you come back with I will say was put there by God in the first place. Thread done.

That's like when you questioned your parents as a child and their response was, "Because I said so."

Anyhow, Betrand Russell had a teapot and Niche has a Flying Spaghetti Monster that are as equally valid to plug into your reduction. And, if Niche is correct by saying The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and you're correct in saying God created the universe, and neither of these two beings are the same nor do they coexist, then what we have is a paradox. And, it's a paradox that can only be solved by blowing each other up. In other words, war/terrorism/genocide.

Or, we can all just realize calmly believing in something unproveable isn't either 1) worthy of our time due to the absurdity of it or 2) believe in it a little less fervently because as strongly as we may believe in some story with no evidence whatsoever, other people may be as equally stubborn and it's not worth fighting about.

Isn't science trying to figure out what god (if there was one) had in mind?

No, that's philosophy. Science doesn't account for the existence or non-existence of a god.

It is a fact that God exists. Nothing in this world comes from nothing.

If nothing comes from nothing, then where did God come from?

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A New Clue to Explain Existence

The new effect hinges on the behavior of particularly strange particles called neutral B-mesons, which are famous for not being able to make up their minds. They oscillate back and forth trillions of times a second between their regular state and their antimatter state. As it happens, the mesons, created in the proton-antiproton collisions, seem to go from their antimatter state to their matter state more rapidly than they go the other way around, leading to an eventual preponderance of matter over antimatter of about 1 percent, when they decay to muons.

The observed preponderance is about 50 times what is predicted by the Standard Model, the suite of theories that has ruled particle physics for a generation, meaning that whatever is causing the B-meson to act this way is “new physics” that physicists have been yearning for almost as long.

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That's like when you questioned your parents as a child and their response was, "Because I said so."

So I'm the parent?

If nothing comes from nothing, then where did God come from?

Science doesn't apply to God. There is no nothing in that regard.

How can you accept that priciple for God, but not for the universe?

The universe follows the laws of science, although we don't know them all yet. None of it applies to God, we can't explain that with any worldly concepts. Hence, the spaghetti monster. My personal version is a cross between a brisket, pork shoulder, and bucket of fried chicken skin. It's good enough for now, I'll find out the rest when my heart gives out. Or not, doesn't change anything.

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How can you accept that priciple for God, but not for the universe?

There is no other option.

It's not for us to understand. Why must we understand it to believe it? Science knows a lot of things, but it cannot explain why. Who can explain gravity?

We live in a fallen world. When God initially created, nothing had an end. There was no such thing as death. The result of sin is death, therefore all we know are things that have a beginning and and an end. Just because we are that way does not mean God is.

In order for something to be created from nothing, there has to be something eternal that created it. Or else it's like two mirrors facing each other, there is no beginning and you never find something that has no beginning which created. The only solution is something eternal.

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All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Except the Flying Spaghetti Monster has no authority. God has creation attested to him. He has fulfilled prophecies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster was a something someone made up. They have no history to testify to it; no substantiation.

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Science doesn't apply to God. There is no nothing in that regard.

Science (testable) cannot replicate life and cannot create anything from nothing. I don't see why science would apply to God himself. He's the source of it.

Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise of gathering knowledge about the world and organizing and condensing that knowledge into testable laws and theories.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

From this definition, science seems to be more of a tool. It does not seem to claim to be the end-all be-all.

It is an institution developed by imperfect people; it is not perfect. It's only reliable as the people observing it, their tests and their understanding, none of which are 100% comprehensive and unbiased.

(emphasis mine)

As knowledge has increased, some methods have proved more reliable (not perfect) than others, and today the scientific method is the standard for science.

A scientific hypothesis is an educated guess about the nature of the universe, a scientific theory is a hypothesis which has been confirmed (it's only as good as it's next test) by repeated observation and measurement.

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My personal version is a cross between a brisket, pork shoulder, and bucket of fried chicken skin.

I like it. It lends itself well to listening to the blues and old country music.

There is no other option.

Says you. This list includes a lot of other options, and all are as equally valid as your assertion.

It's not for us to understand. Why must we understand it to believe it? Science knows a lot of things, but it cannot explain why. Who can explain gravity?

Scientists can.

We live in a fallen world. When God initially created, nothing had an end. There was no such thing as death. The result of sin is death, therefore all we know are things that have a beginning and and an end. Just because we are that way does not mean God is.

So.... since Adam and Eve, two completely innocent creatures who had no knowledge of good and evil are punished for doing something bad, which in turn punished everyone that followed? First, how is their badness anyone's fault but their own? Second, if they were innocent and they didn't know right from wrong, then why were they punished for doing something wrong? That's like swatting a newborn puppy the very first time it takes a leak on your carpet. It has no reference point to even comprehend it's done something wrong.

Your god sounds likes a malevolent sadist.

In order for something to be created from nothing, there has to be something eternal that created it. Or else it's like two mirrors facing each other, there is no beginning and you never find something that has no beginning which created. The only solution is something eternal.

Once, I looked so far down two mirrors facing each other, that about at the fifteenth of sixteenth mirror, I saw a guy waving at me. True story.

I started worshiping that guy the very next day.

Except the Flying Spaghetti Monster has no authority. God has creation attested to him. He has fulfilled prophecies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster was a something someone made up. They have no history to testify to it; no substantiation.

There's no evidence to substantiate God exists any further than The Flying Spaghetti Monster except for the fact people have been duped into belief for a longer period of time. And you know, by your logic, we can say the sun, the moon, the seasons and our ancestors are the true gods of the universe, since these were worshipped for many, many millenia longer than the god you worship.

From this definition, science seems to be more of a tool. It does not seem to claim to be the end-all be-all.

It is an institution developed by imperfect people; it is not perfect. It's only reliable as the people observing it, their tests and their understanding, none of which are 100% comprehensive and unbiased.

YEESSS!!! You finally got it! Science is not belief! It is not a substitute for belief!

This is what I've been trying to say from the get go. The existence of God is an entirely different subject than the validity of scientific principles, and likewise, trying to fit God into science is equally as pointless. However, the literal truth of the Bible is in stark opposition to scientific fact. That's why many scientists who also claim to be religious tend to view the Bible, or whatever other holy document, as a moral guidebook, not a literal historical fact.

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Except the Flying Spaghetti Monster has no authority. God has creation attested to him. He has fulfilled prophecies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster was a something someone made up. They have no history to testify to it; no substantiation.

Actually...the Flying Spaghetti Monster revealed himself to me one evening in February as I drunkenly conversed with a bassist philosopher, a not-very-good artist, and a computer programmer. As a flow of caffeine began to supplant the effect of alcohol, the conversation turned from topics such as genetically-engineered food to the definition of life, the meaning of an abomination, and ultimately the foolhardy nature of being either religious or atheist.

I put forth an example of a random omnipotent and omnipresent demon using--interestingly enough--a teapot (because one was on the table, not that I'd ever read anything by Bertrand Russell). And then I used myself in an example. The bassist philosopher, apparently already familiar with the FSM and assuming that I would be as well, then backed me up with the example of a spaghetti monster. I myself, not being familiar with the Gospel of the FSM, expounded upon it because I thought it to be amusing. I became it's corporeal extension into this universe...basically its Jesus, except way better. All its powers of cosmic starch are exerted by me in this universe, except that I hide them from everyone's perceptions for reasons beyond even my own comprehension. Jesus-FSM probably has a personality disorder.

Upon returning home, I even put up a quote in my sig line on HAIF based upon the FSM as it revealed itself to me...before ever realizing that it had a website. My accounting of the FSM differs from the Gospel as expounded by the prophet Bobby Henderson, obviously. He took some liberties with pirates that I just can't figure out. Maybe it was the "purple monkey dishwasher" effect...but he got it WRONG. It's why I'm here in this universe. And that's also why my sect persecutes his followers.

There's a richer history. I'll expound on it sometime. But yes, lockmat, there is a history, there are sects and quarrels, I have performed miracles (I made white sauce last Tuesday without causing the cream to separate), and I am responsible for every aspect of the universe as you perceive it...which is better than being it's creator.

Bow unto me. Or not. I don't care. In the end, you'll perceive what I want and do what I want anyway, because you're a tool, a plaything for my amusement, just like everybody else.

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There is no other option.

It's not for us to understand. Why must we understand it to believe it? Science knows a lot of things, but it cannot explain why. Who can explain gravity?

It's our Universe. Why shouldnt we strive to understand it? How else are we to advance our knowledge? As far as who can explain gravity... there are perhaps thousands of our best minds working on that right now... looking for gravitons and such. We MUST understand this and many other things/questions.

We live in a fallen world. When God initially created, nothing had an end. There was no such thing as death. The result of sin is death, therefore all we know are things that have a beginning and and an end. Just because we are that way does not mean God is.

Death is a fountain for myths. We fear death. So we make up stories to make us feel better about losing loved ones and such. Would we need religion or a god to help make us feel better if our technology suddenly made us immortal? How silly such ideas (god, heaven, hell) would suddenly become in the face of immortality.

In order for something to be created from nothing, there has to be something eternal that created it. Or else it's like two mirrors facing each other, there is no beginning and you never find something that has no beginning which created. The only solution is something eternal.

Incorrect. So far nothing is eternal. Not even the Universe.

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Upon returning home, I even put up a quote in my sig line on HAIF based upon the FSM as it revealed itself to me...before ever realizing that it had a website. My accounting of the FSM differs from the Gospel as expounded by the prophet Bobby Henderson, obviously. He took some liberties with pirates that I just can't figure out. Maybe it was the "purple monkey dishwasher" effect...but he got it WRONG. It's why I'm here in this universe. And that's also why my sect persecutes his followers.

...and for your additional amusement/enlightenment, a Wiki page for the FSM.

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Says you. This list includes a lot of other options, and all are as equally valid as your assertion.

I'm not talking about different religions or "ways" to heaven. All I am saying is that the only logical sensible explanation for this universe is a God created it. Someone had to have created it.

Scientists can.

What about things like love and hate? Do they exist? Can science test them? Is it measurable? If not, do they truly exist?

So.... since Adam and Eve, two completely innocent creatures who had no knowledge of good and evil are punished for doing something bad, which in turn punished everyone that followed? First, how is their badness anyone's fault but their own? Second, if they were innocent and they didn't know right from wrong, then why were they punished for doing something wrong? That's like swatting a newborn puppy the very first time it takes a leak on your carpet. It has no reference point to even comprehend it's done something wrong.

Your god sounds likes a malevolent sadist.

Adam and Eve were not innocent. They had the ability to make their own decision. They did not trust God, that is why they sinned. And although sin is passed on to everyone, we are all guily regardless because since we have all be born, we have committed acts of sin, so we can't even blame them. We convicted ourselves. And God told them what they could and could not do. He gave them an entire garden of things to eat and he told them not to eat of one tree. They knew what they were not supposed to do, they are without excuse.

And you're right, God does hate sin. However, I see nothing wrong with that. He is perfect, holy and without sin. He has the right to be. His creation is committing acts against him.

Don't we get upset when someone breaks the law or committs wrongful acts against us? How much more of a right does he have to be angry since he is perfect?

Once, I looked so far down two mirrors facing each other, that about at the fifteenth of sixteenth mirror, I saw a guy waving at me. True story.

You should have taken a picture with your phone ;P

There's no evidence to substantiate God exists any further than The Flying Spaghetti Monster except for the fact people have been duped into belief for a longer period of time. And you know, by your logic, we can say the sun, the moon, the seasons and our ancestors are the true gods of the universe, since these were worshipped for many, many millenia longer than the god you worship.

Creation shows he exists. The prophecies recorded hundreds/thousands of years about Jesus prove it.

YEESSS!!! You finally got it! Science is not belief! It is not a substitute for belief!

This is what I've been trying to say from the get go. The existence of God is an entirely different subject than the validity of scientific principles, and likewise, trying to fit God into science is equally as pointless. However, the literal truth of the Bible is in stark opposition to scientific fact. That's why many scientists who also claim to be religious tend to view the Bible, or whatever other holy document, as a moral guidebook, not a literal historical fact.

But my point is science is many people's religion. Science cannot explain it all. Do scientists believe in historical fact at all? Do they believe in Abraham Lincoln, the Magna Carta, the Edict of Milan, the War of Roses? The Bible was written within a historical context.

Is an entire world of Jews really denying that they killed a make-believe person?

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Actually...the Flying Spaghetti Monster revealed himself to me one evening in February as I drunkenly conversed with a bassist philosopher, a not-very-good artist, and a computer programmer. As a flow of caffeine began to supplant the effect of alcohol, the conversation turned from topics such as genetically-engineered food to the definition of life, the meaning of an abomination, and ultimately the foolhardy nature of being either religious or atheist.

I put forth an example of a random omnipotent and omnipresent demon using--interestingly enough--a teapot (because one was on the table, not that I'd ever read anything by Bertrand Russell). And then I used myself in an example. The bassist philosopher, apparently already familiar with the FSM and assuming that I would be as well, then backed me up with the example of a spaghetti monster. I myself, not being familiar with the Gospel of the FSM, expounded upon it because I thought it to be amusing. I became it's corporeal extension into this universe...basically its Jesus, except way better. All its powers of cosmic starch are exerted by me in this universe, except that I hide them from everyone's perceptions for reasons beyond even my own comprehension. Jesus-FSM probably has a personality disorder.

Upon returning home, I even put up a quote in my sig line on HAIF based upon the FSM as it revealed itself to me...before ever realizing that it had a website. My accounting of the FSM differs from the Gospel as expounded by the prophet Bobby Henderson, obviously. He took some liberties with pirates that I just can't figure out. Maybe it was the "purple monkey dishwasher" effect...but he got it WRONG. It's why I'm here in this universe. And that's also why my sect persecutes his followers.

There's a richer history. I'll expound on it sometime. But yes, lockmat, there is a history, there are sects and quarrels, I have performed miracles (I made white sauce last Tuesday without causing the cream to separate), and I am responsible for every aspect of the universe as you perceive it...which is better than being it's creator.

Bow unto me. Or not. I don't care. In the end, you'll perceive what I want and do what I want anyway, because you're a tool, a plaything for my amusement, just like everybody else.

But niche, there is no history record of the Flying Sphagetti Monster and that he would come into existence 6,000 plus years ago. There are no other prophecies like in Isaiah that predicted he would exist. He did not talk to Roman governors and thousands of other people like Christ.

He only came to you and your few buddies. He's really nothing more than an "alien" that the masses have not seen.

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