Affordable Housing Apartments Near The Katy Mills Mall

[AtticaFlinch]

5. The only person directly attacked by the commentary on here is Elder. The people of Katy may find that this complex is not a threat to their livelihoods.

In all fairness, I blamed every qualified person in Katy who could have run against the unopposed Elder in the last election.

I take Callo's opinion on this with a grain of salt though. I remember him from my C-D days. The only issue he took any stance on was apartment complexes. The residents didn't matter to him at all, but man, he hated the crap out of apartments. He won't favor building any apartments, even in midtown. His idea of utopia is a sea of stand alone family dwellings.

Seems most of the dissidents of this thread don't live any where near Katy anyway. Perhaps it's just a little jealousy showing because they have to live with what Katy is trying to keep away.

I don't think it's jealousy. Perhaps it's more the opposite of the ostrich/head-in-the-sand syndrome, commonly known as the anti-buried-sand syndrome which is often shortened to just anti-BS.

[AK123]

......Sugarland on the other hand has done a great job with the First colony mall area

But the thing about First Colony is that it has two layers of zoning; City of Sugar Land city limits, and the First Colony MPC. So there is much greater control over what is or isn't built in that area.

However, I haven't been too pleased with city of Sugar Land leadership concerning areas immediately next to their city limits with Sugar Land postal addresses but Houston ETJ. At least in Katy's case here, the mayor or city council or whoever it was spoke out against this apartment development, even though it's not in Katy city limits (correct?) So props to Katy city leadership for apparently recognizing that something doesn't have to be in city limits to directly affect them. On the other hand, the city of Sugar Land was completely silent when a developer was trying to build one of these places a stone's throw from Sugar Land city limits, at a Sugar Land postal address area, but Houston ETJ. It was 100% up to residents to stop it... no help from city of Sugar Land with even something like a public statement. This area has asked two or three times to be taken into Sugar Land ETJ, but Sugar Land keeps saying no. I don't get it, I don't agree with it, I think think Sugar Land blowing the area off that's near its own airport is stupid, but what do I know. It's displeased me enough though, that when we do ever move again, it probably won't be into Sugar Land. That, and the fact that whenever I've had to deal with city of Houston or 311, it's been 10x faster and more responsive than that of the city of Sugar Land, if you can believe that. Oh, and FBCAD blows too.

Sorry for my Sugar Land rant, didn't mean to hijack your thread!

[jfre81]

If you just wanted this to be about you and your neighbors, then why'd you post this on a Houston board and City-Data, a national board. It seems to me you're not upset because we've passed judgement, but because the judgement we've passed doesn't mirror your own judgement.

So the deja vu feeling isn't just me then.

Since a new Wendy's is going up, this works well. I mean, people who work there aren't going to afford even the HOA fees on a KB Home out there, and nobody is going to commute far for minimum wage. Suppose you could always go back to driving 20 minutes for your Frosty fix.

[VicMan]

The proposed development is not in Katy. If Katy wanted any power over this area they should have incorporated it.

It's in Houston's extra-territorial jurisdiction, so Katy can only annex it if Houston releases the land from its extra-territorial jurisdiction.

[moni]

It seems to me, the fact that these new apartments are "low income" is the important fact. The color or race of the occupants should not matter since the requirements for getting into one of these apartments is "income". If these apartments are managed correctly, then nothing else is important. People with low incomes need a place to live too, such as seniors, and poorly paid clerks at the local mall.

[livincinco]

It seems to me, the fact that these new apartments are "low income" is the important fact. The color or race of the occupants should not matter since the requirements for getting into one of these apartments is "income". If these apartments are managed correctly, then nothing else is important. People with low incomes need a place to live too, such as seniors, and poorly paid clerks at the local mall.

This is completely an economic issue, not a race issue and it certainly isn't unique to Katy. Everyone agrees that people with low incomes need a place to live, its just that no one wants that place to be close to their house.

I'd be very interested to hear any homeowner on this forum explain why they would support a low income apartment complex of the type being discussed being built in their immediate neighborhood.

[ricco67]

This is completely an economic issue, not a race issue and it certainly isn't unique to Katy. Everyone agrees that people with low incomes need a place to live, its just that no one wants that place to be close to their house.

I'd be very interested to hear any homeowner on this forum explain why they would support a low income apartment complex of the type being discussed being built in their immediate neighborhood.

Then again, perhaps you would be better off shutting down the mall, fast food joints, small bisinesses, and such.

Remember, people from katy and the cinco ranch area have come on this forum in the past to complain about the lack of food choices in the area.

Now that you have the options, it stands to reason that people that work there would need a place to live.

You can't have one without the other.

So pick one: no stores or affordable housing.

[Fringe]

Then again, perhaps you would be better off shutting down the mall, fast food joints, small bisinesses, and such.

Remember, people from katy and the cinco ranch area have come on this forum in the past to complain about the lack of food choices in the area.

Now that you have the options, it stands to reason that people that work there would need a place to live.

You can't have one without the other.

So pick one:  no stores or affordable housing.

Not true. When I moved to Sugar Land almost 25 years ago I used to complain about lack of food choices. No more. And we still don't have low income apartments. 

[livincinco]

Then again, perhaps you would be better off shutting down the mall, fast food joints, small bisinesses, and such.

Remember, people from katy and the cinco ranch area have come on this forum in the past to complain about the lack of food choices in the area.

Now that you have the options, it stands to reason that people that work there would need a place to live.

You can't have one without the other.

So pick one: no stores or affordable housing.

Sorry, not buying that. In that case explain Manhattan. Average cost of housing in Manhattan is 4 times the national average and I haven't heard anyone complaining about shortages of restaurants or businesses there.

Katy is under served by restaurants because of its inability to deliver a weekday lunch crowd, not lack of workers.

[VicMan]

Manhattan is well-connected to the other boroughs via public transport, and Manhattan itself has some poor people.

Sorry, not buying that. In that case explain Manhattan. Average cost of housing in Manhattan is 4 times the national average and I haven't heard anyone complaining about shortages of restaurants or businesses there.

Katy is under served by restaurants because of its inability to deliver a weekday lunch crowd, not lack of workers.

[infinite_jim]

Not true. When I moved to Sugar Land almost 25 years ago I used to complain about lack of food choices. No more. And we still don't have low income apartments. 

Sugar Land has very affordable apartments off Lexington.

Sorry, not buying that. In that case explain Manhattan. Average cost of housing in Manhattan is 4 times the national average and I haven't heard anyone complaining about shortages of restaurants or businesses there.

Manhattan has many market distortions like Rent Control.

Katy is under served by restaurants because of its inability to deliver a weekday lunch crowd, not lack of workers.

The proposed site location is close to I-10 thereby extending the potential job placements farther east-west than the immediacy of just Katy.

I perceive a classic rejection of modernism in the phenomena of a "white flight" vibe from the thread starter and dog whistle casting in some of the other supporting posters and mayor's comment. That's just my perception but it colors the way people interpret the dynamics of the potential situation.

Frankly, the residents who oppose this development should join together and buy the property outright. Simple. Easy. Done.

This idea of being able to "shame" developers into not doing their job because of the perceived fear of property valuations dropping, increased criminal activity, or lower school grades are rather huge assumptions to make without empirical data to back up these beliefs. It really does sound from the outsider's POV that economic segregation is some sort of right of property ownership, I do not agree. Developers may build to that market mentality but it is not the norm. Building tall fences and installing security stations around the affluent neighborhoods is the most common way of securitization if your truly concerned that the residents of the low income apartments are going to victimize single family residencies.

[livincinco]

Manhattan has many market distortions like Rent Control.

Sure it does, but that doesn't detract from the point that the majority of the workers live in the other boroughs and commute in to work.

The proposed site location is close to I-10 thereby extending the potential job placements farther east-west than the immediacy of just Katy.

Right, but my point wasn't that there wouldn't be sufficient job opportunities for people that live in the proposed apartments. It was to refute the statement that restaurant diversity in Katy won't improve without low cost housing options.

I'm not saying that I agree with protesting these apartments, but I'm also far enough away to not really be impacted by them. I'm saying that no one ever wants low income apartments built close to their house. They want them built next to someone else's and if protesting them achieves that end, so be it.

[WAZ]

Entropy exists.

You should fight this Katy residents.

It doesn’t matter where you live . If you care about low-cost housing in Houston, you should fight this. It’s a matter of resources and priorities.

I challenge anyone to prove the Houston area has a shortage of low cost housing. Everything I’ve seen suggests the contrary. According to Forbes, Houston is the 8th cheapest market for renters in the US. Median rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is only $707, and our vacancy rate is 11% (four times that of New York City – a place that actually does have a shortage of low cost housing). If you don’t want to rent, a quick search on HAR.com reveals plenty of condominiums available for less than $30,000; houses for under $60,000.

Unfortunately, Houston’s low-cost housing is in a sorry state. In some neighborhoods (Gulfton; Alief), apartments that were built for the middle class, now house the poor. Many of these apartments were built 30 years ago, and had a useful lifespan of 30 years. In other neighborhoods (Sunnyside; Acres Homes), poor homeowners desperately need help to repair older houses; but the programs available to them are inadequate.

We need to do more to repair and reconstruct Houston’s existing low-cost housing. But there is a finite amount of resources available for low-cost housing. Every dollar that’s spent to build new low-cost housing, is a dollar that can’t be spent to repair or reconstruct existing low-cost housing. That’s why we all should fight the thing in Katy, and others like it.

I will note, that to their credit, the municipal government of the City of Houston has realized this. If you look at how the City spends low-cost housing money, generally it’s to renovate and reconstruct existing properties. They take the right approach to low-cost housing for Houston. Unfortunately, my observation is that TDHCA in Austin and HUD in Washington DC don’t share the approach.

[VicMan]

Alright

In regards to

"Okay, so if there are transient residents the area could become slummy (which could be caused by any number of other things, as well). Is he making his non-American citizen statement based on figures he has of similar projects? And are non-citizen rates even reported? (and if so, are they accurate?)"

In regards to that, I don't know of any websites or groups which report % rates of non citizens in these complexes - In regards to how and why Elder is coming to this conclusion, I would have to e-mail him

Thanks for bringing some of that up - wanna take a stab at my unanswered question?

WAZ: The definition of "low cost" housing in Houston may differ from the definitions of "low cost" in other cities.

[AtticaFlinch]

WAZ: The definition of "low cost" housing in Houston may differ from the definitions of "low cost" in other cities.

Precisely. Low cost housing in Houston means many of the residents aren't even American citizens.

In Houston, we can only respect our immigrants if they live in McMansions.

[ricco67]

Sorry, not buying that. In that case explain Manhattan. Average cost of housing in Manhattan is 4 times the national average and I haven't heard anyone complaining about shortages of restaurants or businesses there.

Katy is under served by restaurants because of its inability to deliver a weekday lunch crowd, not lack of workers.

But I wasn't only referring to just the "Lunch" crowd at food joint, but rather small business. Your pet groomer, barber, Doctor's Staff, etc...

Surely you don't think everyone that owns or is employed by these people all earn over $50-60K a year, do you?

[Fringe]

But I wasn't only referring to just the "Lunch" crowd at food joint, but rather small business. Your pet groomer, barber, Doctor's Staff, etc...

Surely you don't think everyone that owns or is employed by these people all earn over $50-60K a year, do you?

Can none of these people drive?  Advantages of Katy, SL, and other suburban places is ample free parking and most are not in peak traffic while commuting to these places.  Not everyone has to rely on public transportation.  Those that do, stay in Houston. 

[kylejack]

Can none of these people drive? Advantages of Katy, SL, and other suburban places is ample free parking and most are not in peak traffic while commuting to these places. Not everyone has to rely on public transportation. Those that do, stay in Houston.

Ricco has a suggestion.

I don't know, I say we start a shanty town out by Cleveland, have it surrounded by troops and then have a high speed rail network to make sure they are able to work (if they do) in the city and leave promptly when their various shifts end.

[Fringe]

Ricco has a suggestion.

I'm okay with that. 

[AtticaFlinch]

Can none of these people drive? Advantages of Katy, SL, and other suburban places is ample free parking and most are not in peak traffic while commuting to these places. Not everyone has to rely on public transportation. Those that do, stay in Houston.

The cost of a gallon of gas right now is about $2.60. Let's say your low-income drones live only 15 miles away from their far-flung crappy job serving you burgers at the sparkling new Wendy's being built in Katy. That's a 30 mile per day commute. Now, let's assume their old beater get less than current CAFE standards for fuel economy. I think it's a safe assumption that poor people will have older, less fuel-efficient cars, but feel free to disagree on that point. Anyhow, either way, if their car gets 20 mpg, their total round-trip cost to work and back home will consume a gallon and a half of fuel, or $3.90. Assuming they work full time at 40 hours a week, and assuming that 40 hours is broken up into five shifts of eight hours each, then that would mean the poor low-wage worker was spending $19.50 per week in gas. Over the course of a full year, that fuel cost adds up to $1,014. From a slightly different perspective, the mileage added to the automobile each year will total 7,800, the federal government estimates the cost associated with operating a vehicle to be 56 cents per mile. Looking at costs from this perspective, the low-wage worker will have spent $4,368 per year. Either cost you evaluate, whether total operational costs or just fuel costs, if a person makes low wages, which I would place at less than $25-30k/year, a workday commute would consume a substantial portion of their income.

That said, if you're willing to pay more for your goods and services, so the places you shop at can afford to pay their employees more to offset their commute costs in order to ensure no poor folks live near you, then more power to you. I'd rather my goods pricing reflected something closer to the true cost of an item and not just the cost of labor, but we all have different priorities, I guess. I'd rather live near the dirty untouchables and reap the benefits of their labor rather than shut myself off from the outside world. Your life though, your home. And as has been said before, if you really don't want the people who do your dirty work to live within sight of you, then buy the land and do something else with it.

[kylejack]

Attica,

More like minimum wage at $7.25 for a yearly income of 15080 if even they get 40 hours a week, which is unlikely.

[Fringe]

 What if they carpool?  

Maybe they don't have to drive 15 miles. I know Stafford and Rosenberg are right next to Sugar Land.

[usc619]

The Grand Harbor application (#10197) has been withdrawn from consideration by the applicant.

Robbye G. Meyer

Director of Multifamily Finance

Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs

221 East 11th Street

Austin, Texas 78701

(512) 475-2213 (V)

(512) 475-0764 (F)

Thanks to all the supporters and Haters(AtticaFlinch and others)

[livincinco]

But I wasn't only referring to just the "Lunch" crowd at food joint, but rather small business. Your pet groomer, barber, Doctor's Staff, etc...

Surely you don't think everyone that owns or is employed by these people all earn over $50-60K a year, do you?

Not at all, but it's a different point than we were originally talking because I don't think that anyone is of the opinion that Katy is underserved by those type of businesses. I think that most of the inside the loop crowd would point out that, in their opinion, that's all that Katy is. One long string of strip malls with dry cleaners, etc.

It's also not as if there is a shortage of low cost housing options in the Katy area. I just did a quick search on a katy real estate website and came up with 565 listings for houses for sale for less than $95k. It's just that most of it is concentrated north of I-10.

My point was, and still is, that this is just a case of NIMBY, just like anywhere else. Nobody wants the low income housing built next to them. Whether its in Katy, Sugarland, River Oaks, or the Heights, you're still going to have the same feelings.

[Fringe]

The Grand Harbor application (#10197) has been withdrawn from consideration by the applicant.

Robbye G. Meyer

Director of Multifamily Finance

Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs

221 East 11th Street

Austin, Texas 78701

(512) 475-2213 (V)

(512) 475-0764 (F)

Thanks to all the supporters and Haters(AtticaFlinch and others)  

Good deal. Are they relocating to Cleveland? 

[usc619]

Here's the latest news......Don't mess with KATY!

[ricco67]

Here's the latest news......Don't mess with KATY!

-1

I REALLY miss that button, Ed.

[RedScare]

Oh joy! Katy's property value enhancing outlet mall, surrounded by acres of asphalt, and ringed by fast food stores, is SAVED! Now, only Katy's wealthy and upper middle class will walk the aisles perusing the factory seconds and knockoffs, before topping off the day with a 1,000 calorie burger. Utopia has been restored!

[AK123]

Why would inner-loopers care about what happens out in Katy? Or bother getting in this Katy forum? Just curious...

[livincinco]

Oh joy! Katy's property value enhancing outlet mall, surrounded by acres of asphalt, and ringed by fast food stores, is SAVED! Now, only Katy's wealthy and upper middle class will walk the aisles perusing the factory seconds and knockoffs, before topping off the day with a 1,000 calorie burger. Utopia has been restored!

Yes, now that all has returned to its natural order, you can go ahead and return to the thread about the new McDonalds that is being built in the Heights. I, for one, am on pins and needles waiting to hear if the rumors are true...