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Low Income Apartments Near The Katy Mills Mall


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Not true. When I moved to Sugar Land almost 25 years ago I used to complain about lack of food choices. No more. And we still don't have low income apartments. 

Sugar Land has very affordable apartments off Lexington.

Sorry, not buying that. In that case explain Manhattan. Average cost of housing in Manhattan is 4 times the national average and I haven't heard anyone complaining about shortages of restaurants or businesses there.

Manhattan has many market distortions like Rent Control.

Katy is under served by restaurants because of its inability to deliver a weekday lunch crowd, not lack of workers.

The proposed site location is close to I-10 thereby extending the potential job placements farther east-west than the immediacy of just Katy.

I perceive a classic rejection of modernism in the phenomena of a "white flight" vibe from the thread starter and dog whistle casting in some of the other supporting posters and mayor's comment. That's just my perception but it colors the way people interpret the dynamics of the potential situation.

Frankly, the residents who oppose this development should join together and buy the property outright. Simple. Easy. Done.

This idea of being able to "shame" developers into not doing their job because of the perceived fear of property valuations dropping, increased criminal activity, or lower school grades are rather huge assumptions to make without empirical data to back up these beliefs. It really does sound from the outsider's POV that economic segregation is some sort of right of property ownership, I do not agree. Developers may build to that market mentality but it is not the norm. Building tall fences and installing security stations around the affluent neighborhoods is the most common way of securitization if your truly concerned that the residents of the low income apartments are going to victimize single family residencies.

Edited by infinite_jim
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Manhattan has many market distortions like Rent Control.

Sure it does, but that doesn't detract from the point that the majority of the workers live in the other boroughs and commute in to work.

The proposed site location is close to I-10 thereby extending the potential job placements farther east-west than the immediacy of just Katy.

Right, but my point wasn't that there wouldn't be sufficient job opportunities for people that live in the proposed apartments. It was to refute the statement that restaurant diversity in Katy won't improve without low cost housing options.

I'm not saying that I agree with protesting these apartments, but I'm also far enough away to not really be impacted by them. I'm saying that no one ever wants low income apartments built close to their house. They want them built next to someone else's and if protesting them achieves that end, so be it.

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Entropy exists.

You should fight this Katy residents.

It doesn’t matter where you live . If you care about low-cost housing in Houston, you should fight this. It’s a matter of resources and priorities.

I challenge anyone to prove the Houston area has a shortage of low cost housing. Everything I’ve seen suggests the contrary. According to Forbes, Houston is the 8th cheapest market for renters in the US. Median rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is only $707, and our vacancy rate is 11% (four times that of New York City – a place that actually does have a shortage of low cost housing). If you don’t want to rent, a quick search on HAR.com reveals plenty of condominiums available for less than $30,000; houses for under $60,000.

Unfortunately, Houston’s low-cost housing is in a sorry state. In some neighborhoods (Gulfton; Alief), apartments that were built for the middle class, now house the poor. Many of these apartments were built 30 years ago, and had a useful lifespan of 30 years. In other neighborhoods (Sunnyside; Acres Homes), poor homeowners desperately need help to repair older houses; but the programs available to them are inadequate.

We need to do more to repair and reconstruct Houston’s existing low-cost housing. But there is a finite amount of resources available for low-cost housing. Every dollar that’s spent to build new low-cost housing, is a dollar that can’t be spent to repair or reconstruct existing low-cost housing. That’s why we all should fight the thing in Katy, and others like it.

I will note, that to their credit, the municipal government of the City of Houston has realized this. If you look at how the City spends low-cost housing money, generally it’s to renovate and reconstruct existing properties. They take the right approach to low-cost housing for Houston. Unfortunately, my observation is that TDHCA in Austin and HUD in Washington DC don’t share the approach.

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Alright :)

In regards to

"Okay, so if there are transient residents the area could become slummy (which could be caused by any number of other things, as well). Is he making his non-American citizen statement based on figures he has of similar projects? And are non-citizen rates even reported? (and if so, are they accurate?)"

In regards to that, I don't know of any websites or groups which report % rates of non citizens in these complexes - In regards to how and why Elder is coming to this conclusion, I would have to e-mail him

Thanks for bringing some of that up - wanna take a stab at my unanswered question? :P

WAZ: The definition of "low cost" housing in Houston may differ from the definitions of "low cost" in other cities.

Edited by VicMan
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WAZ: The definition of "low cost" housing in Houston may differ from the definitions of "low cost" in other cities.

Precisely. Low cost housing in Houston means many of the residents aren't even American citizens.

In Houston, we can only respect our immigrants if they live in McMansions.

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Sorry, not buying that. In that case explain Manhattan. Average cost of housing in Manhattan is 4 times the national average and I haven't heard anyone complaining about shortages of restaurants or businesses there.

Katy is under served by restaurants because of its inability to deliver a weekday lunch crowd, not lack of workers.

But I wasn't only referring to just the "Lunch" crowd at food joint, but rather small business. Your pet groomer, barber, Doctor's Staff, etc...

Surely you don't think everyone that owns or is employed by these people all earn over $50-60K a year, do you?

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But I wasn't only referring to just the "Lunch" crowd at food joint, but rather small business. Your pet groomer, barber, Doctor's Staff, etc...

Surely you don't think everyone that owns or is employed by these people all earn over $50-60K a year, do you?

Can none of these people drive?  Advantages of Katy, SL, and other suburban places is ample free parking and most are not in peak traffic while commuting to these places.  Not everyone has to rely on public transportation.  Those that do, stay in Houston. 

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Can none of these people drive? Advantages of Katy, SL, and other suburban places is ample free parking and most are not in peak traffic while commuting to these places. Not everyone has to rely on public transportation. Those that do, stay in Houston.

Ricco has a suggestion.

I don't know, I say we start a shanty town out by Cleveland, have it surrounded by troops and then have a high speed rail network to make sure they are able to work (if they do) in the city and leave promptly when their various shifts end.

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Can none of these people drive? Advantages of Katy, SL, and other suburban places is ample free parking and most are not in peak traffic while commuting to these places. Not everyone has to rely on public transportation. Those that do, stay in Houston.

The cost of a gallon of gas right now is about $2.60. Let's say your low-income drones live only 15 miles away from their far-flung crappy job serving you burgers at the sparkling new Wendy's being built in Katy. That's a 30 mile per day commute. Now, let's assume their old beater get less than current CAFE standards for fuel economy. I think it's a safe assumption that poor people will have older, less fuel-efficient cars, but feel free to disagree on that point. Anyhow, either way, if their car gets 20 mpg, their total round-trip cost to work and back home will consume a gallon and a half of fuel, or $3.90. Assuming they work full time at 40 hours a week, and assuming that 40 hours is broken up into five shifts of eight hours each, then that would mean the poor low-wage worker was spending $19.50 per week in gas. Over the course of a full year, that fuel cost adds up to $1,014. From a slightly different perspective, the mileage added to the automobile each year will total 7,800, the federal government estimates the cost associated with operating a vehicle to be 56 cents per mile. Looking at costs from this perspective, the low-wage worker will have spent $4,368 per year. Either cost you evaluate, whether total operational costs or just fuel costs, if a person makes low wages, which I would place at less than $25-30k/year, a workday commute would consume a substantial portion of their income.

That said, if you're willing to pay more for your goods and services, so the places you shop at can afford to pay their employees more to offset their commute costs in order to ensure no poor folks live near you, then more power to you. I'd rather my goods pricing reflected something closer to the true cost of an item and not just the cost of labor, but we all have different priorities, I guess. I'd rather live near the dirty untouchables and reap the benefits of their labor rather than shut myself off from the outside world. Your life though, your home. And as has been said before, if you really don't want the people who do your dirty work to live within sight of you, then buy the land and do something else with it.

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The Grand Harbor application (#10197) has been withdrawn from consideration by the applicant.

Robbye G. Meyer

Director of Multifamily Finance

Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs

221 East 11th Street

Austin, Texas 78701

(512) 475-2213 (V)

(512) 475-0764 (F)

Thanks to all the supporters and Haters(AtticaFlinch and others) :D

Edited by usc619
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But I wasn't only referring to just the "Lunch" crowd at food joint, but rather small business. Your pet groomer, barber, Doctor's Staff, etc...

Surely you don't think everyone that owns or is employed by these people all earn over $50-60K a year, do you?

Not at all, but it's a different point than we were originally talking because I don't think that anyone is of the opinion that Katy is underserved by those type of businesses. I think that most of the inside the loop crowd would point out that, in their opinion, that's all that Katy is. One long string of strip malls with dry cleaners, etc. wink.gif

It's also not as if there is a shortage of low cost housing options in the Katy area. I just did a quick search on a katy real estate website and came up with 565 listings for houses for sale for less than $95k. It's just that most of it is concentrated north of I-10.

My point was, and still is, that this is just a case of NIMBY, just like anywhere else. Nobody wants the low income housing built next to them. Whether its in Katy, Sugarland, River Oaks, or the Heights, you're still going to have the same feelings.

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The Grand Harbor application (#10197) has been withdrawn from consideration by the applicant.

Robbye G. Meyer

Director of Multifamily Finance

Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs

221 East 11th Street

Austin, Texas 78701

(512) 475-2213 (V)

(512) 475-0764 (F)

Thanks to all the supporters and Haters(AtticaFlinch and others)  :D

Good deal. Are they relocating to Cleveland? 

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Oh joy! Katy's property value enhancing outlet mall, surrounded by acres of asphalt, and ringed by fast food stores, is SAVED! Now, only Katy's wealthy and upper middle class will walk the aisles perusing the factory seconds and knockoffs, before topping off the day with a 1,000 calorie burger. Utopia has been restored!

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Oh joy! Katy's property value enhancing outlet mall, surrounded by acres of asphalt, and ringed by fast food stores, is SAVED! Now, only Katy's wealthy and upper middle class will walk the aisles perusing the factory seconds and knockoffs, before topping off the day with a 1,000 calorie burger. Utopia has been restored!

Yes, now that all has returned to its natural order, you can go ahead and return to the thread about the new McDonalds that is being built in the Heights. I, for one, am on pins and needles waiting to hear if the rumors are true...biggrin.gif

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Yes, now that all has returned to its natural order, you can go ahead and return to the thread about the new McDonalds that is being built in the Heights. I, for one, am on pins and needles waiting to hear if the rumors are true...biggrin.gif

LOL better yet....when is the next house burning event?

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The Grand Harbor application (#10197) has been withdrawn from consideration by the applicant.

Robbye G. Meyer

Director of Multifamily Finance

Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs

221 East 11th Street

Austin, Texas 78701

(512) 475-2213 (V)

(512) 475-0764 (F)

Thanks to all the supporters and Haters(AtticaFlinch and others) :rolleyes:

<br style=""> <br style="">

Don’t worry about the haters. They hate me with a passion, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. :rolleyes:

But I’ll confess I'm a little disappointed. I had hoped to speak at the hearing, to talk about how badly we need to fix Houston's existing low-cost housing.

Properties that I'd have talked about:

- Candlewood Glen & Candlelight Trails on the Northwest side (DeSoto Street): The properties should both be bulldozed, one turned into a park; quality low-cost housing built on the site of the other. (It won't be easy - the Candlelight Trails is actually a condominium complex).

- Le Promenade on the Southwest side (7400 block of Bissonnet): These condos should be bulldozed; half of the site turned into a park, or sold to HISD for use by Sharpstown High; half turned into quality low-cost housing.

- Properties on the Chronicle’s Database from 2008: Some of these places have changed hands and names, and repairs have started; but they can’t just put lipstick on pigs. They need to gut these places down to the studs and rebuild from there. TDHCA help sure would be nice.

- Houston’s countless derelict houses: There is no reason derelict houses can’t be demolished and rebuilt into quality low-cost housing. The City is starting to do this, and TDHCA actually has some programs in place that could help; but I’ve yet to see evidence that TDHCA is using those programs here in Houston.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. My point is that the TDHCA is doing Houston a huge disservice when they spend money to subsidize new housing on open land. It’s the urban equivalent of buying a new car, and leaving your old car to rot on the front lawn.

Edited by WAZ
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Nobody is expected to justify their interests by physical proximity. People from Katy are free to post in the Downtown topic area.

Wow, I'm a little surprised to see a mod jump on a meaningless sarcastic remark....lol we're a bit sensitive around here :rolleyes:

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Don’t worry about the haters. They hate me with a passion, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. :rolleyes:

But I’ll confess I'm a little disappointed. I had hoped to speak at the hearing, to talk about how badly we need to fix Houston's existing low-cost housing.

Properties that I'd have talked about:

- Candlewood Glen & Candlelight Trails on the Northwest side (DeSoto Street): The properties should both be bulldozed, one turned into a park; quality low-cost housing built on the site of the other. (It won't be easy - the Candlelight Trails is actually a condominium complex).

- Le Promenade on the Southwest side (7400 block of Bissonnet): These condos should be bulldozed; half of the site turned into a park, or sold to HISD for use by Sharpstown High; half turned into quality low-cost housing.

- Properties on the Chronicle’s Database from 2008: Some of these places have changed hands and names, and repairs have started; but they can’t just put lipstick on pigs. They need to gut these places down to the studs and rebuild from there. TDHCA help sure would be nice.

- Houston’s countless derelict houses: There is no reason derelict houses can’t be demolished and rebuilt into quality low-cost housing. The City is starting to do this, and TDHCA actually has some programs in place that could help; but I’ve yet to see evidence that TDHCA is using those programs here in Houston.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. My point is that the TDHCA is doing Houston a huge disservice when they spend money to subsidize new housing on open land. It’s the urban equivalent of buying a new car, and leaving your old car to rot on the front lawn.

I just don't understand why the City/State will not put stricter laws against slum lords and development ?

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But I’ll confess I'm a little disappointed. I had hoped to speak at the hearing, to talk about how badly we need to fix Houston's existing low-cost housing.

Properties that I'd have talked about:

- Candlewood Glen & Candlelight Trails on the Northwest side (DeSoto Street): The properties should both be bulldozed, one turned into a park; quality low-cost housing built on the site of the other. (It won't be easy - the Candlelight Trails is actually a condominium complex).

- Le Promenade on the Southwest side (7400 block of Bissonnet): These condos should be bulldozed; half of the site turned into a park, or sold to HISD for use by Sharpstown High; half turned into quality low-cost housing.

- Properties on the Chronicle’s Database from 2008: Some of these places have changed hands and names, and repairs have started; but they can’t just put lipstick on pigs. They need to gut these places down to the studs and rebuild from there. TDHCA help sure would be nice.

- Houston’s countless derelict houses: There is no reason derelict houses can’t be demolished and rebuilt into quality low-cost housing. The City is starting to do this, and TDHCA actually has some programs in place that could help; but I’ve yet to see evidence that TDHCA is using those programs here in Houston.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. My point is that the TDHCA is doing Houston a huge disservice when they spend money to subsidize new housing on open land. It’s the urban equivalent of buying a new car, and leaving your old car to rot on the front lawn.

I totally agree with you on this. Why not put more effort into renovating or rebuilding existing properties that are falling apart or dangerous, and less effort into building new on open land way far out from the city in areas where the public is greatly opposed? The car example is a good comparison.

There will be hearings in downtown for the other applications. You should show up to one or more of them and share this.

Nobody is expected to justify their interests by physical proximity. People from Katy are free to post in the Downtown topic area.

Well that was unexpected. You obviously miss the point.

Of course, but if Katy residents were to post in downtown topics of how they think inner-loopers should think and should live their lives, in a very judgmental and political way, I'd suspect the inner-loopers would probably not be very pleased. I don't see how any of that discussion is helpful to anyone. Would you disagree with this? People usually choose to live where they do because it has something attractive to them, or a way of life different from another area they chose not to live.

Edited by AK123
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The point on the derelict properties vs. new developments could work if the derelict properties are in proximity to the proposed new developments.

In this case, I'm not sure how many derelict or severely under capacity properties were in proximity to the proposed low income site. If a low income individual wants to live near the intersection of I-10 and the Grand Parkway and work in area businesses, it would not make sense for him or her to move into Sunnyside, even if the property in Sunnyside was rehabbed.

Edited by VicMan
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But not everyone relies on public transportation. Especially true in Houston. 

In many cases people who have cars who do not rely on public transportation still have it available in case they need it. In the cases of people who do not own automobiles, they likely will not able to count on having an automobile from a friend or relative available every day of the week or when they need it.

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Not everyone has a car.

But as Edina from Ab Fab said: "Anybody can use Public Transport, Sweetie!"

Hopefully the new board members at METRO can better connect poorer neighborhoods to employment centers.

The point on the derelict properties vs. new developments could work [only] if the derelict properties are in [close] proximity to the proposed new developments.

Why?

In this case, I'm not sure how many derelict or severely under capacity properties were in proximity to the proposed low income site. If a low income individual wants to live near the intersection of I-10 and the Grand Parkway and work in area businesses, it would not make sense for him or her to move into Sunnyside, even if the property in Sunnyside was rehabbed.

Of course; a commute from Sunnyside to Katy would be a nightmare. But a rehabbed apartment in the northern reaches of Alief could certainly be an option for your hypothetical "low income individual." And that rehabbed house in Sunnyside could be perfect for someone working in the Med Center, or the Port of Houston.

My fiancee and I would love to live in Bellaire or Meyerland. They're equidistant from our works, and we love to shop and eat there. But we can't afford those neighborhoods, so we live about a mile to the west. We have a house we can afford, easy commutes, and we can still shop and eat in Bellaire. It's the same concept.

I'd like to say it's a moot point now that the Katy thing is dead. But there are going to be more TDHCA hearings for subsidized housing on open land. They all need to be fought - and the funding directed to fix Houston's existing, deteriorated low-cost housing. We can't allow ourselves to be swayed in this.

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The point on the derelict properties vs. new developments could work [only] if the derelict properties are in [close] proximity to the proposed new developments.

The housing should be at a reasonable distance to the person's place of employment.

"Of course; a commute from Sunnyside to Katy would be a nightmare. But a rehabbed apartment in the northern reaches of Alief could certainly be an option for your hypothetical "low income individual." And that rehabbed house in Sunnyside could be perfect for someone working in the Med Center, or the Port of Houston."

1. Yes, a Sunnyside house would be good for someone working in the Med Center or the Port of Houston - However I believe that all areas of town need to be addressed by these funds. The funds to target the Medical Center area can be used in Sunnyside. But the question is where should funds for far west Harris be allocated?

2. Which properties in Alief are in a poor condition and are eligible to be fixed with the funds?

Edited by VicMan
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The housing should be at a reasonable distance to the person's place of employment.

We could debate the meaning of "reasonable distance" 'till kingdom come. It's a subjective term, and it shouldn't be a determining factor in where we put subsidized housing.

And don't underestimate a well-planned mass transit system.

1. Yes, a Sunnyside house would be good for someone working in the Med Center or the Port of Houston - However I believe that all areas of town need to be addressed by these funds. The funds to target the Medical Center area can be used in Sunnyside. But the question is where should funds for far west Harris be allocated?

2. Which properties in Alief are in a poor condition and are eligible to be fixed with the funds?

1. I think we're actually on the same page with this. And Alief is the obvious answer to your question.

2: For the purposes of our argument, let's go back to the Chronicle's 2008 database. In Alief, The Claridge at 10027 Spice is in most need of rehab - with 127 citations. Willow Meadow Place nearby has 57 citations. Closer to Katy, there's The Belvedere at 7000 Cook Rd., with 32 citations. The latter would probably be the best choice for this round of funding, simply because it's the closest to Katy.

Of course, this database is 2 years old and things might have changed. Neighborhood Protection has more current data that's unpublished. I would hope the TDHCA uses NPC's data and not an old Chronicle database.

As far as TDHCA's eligibility rules: many of them need to be tweaked to allow for greater reinvestment in existing low-cost housing. I'm under no illusions that this will be easy or quick. It never is in Austin. That's part of why we need to speak so loudly at every hearing.

In any case, this is straying from a discussion of Katy per se.

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Of course, but if Katy residents were to post in downtown topics of how they think inner-loopers should think and should live their lives, in a very judgmental and political way, I'd suspect the inner-loopers would probably not be very pleased.

I urge you to bring it on.

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<br style=""> <br style="">

Don’t worry about the haters. They hate me with a passion, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. :rolleyes:

But I’ll confess I'm a little disappointed. I had hoped to speak at the hearing, to talk about how badly we need to fix Houston's existing low-cost housing.

Properties that I'd have talked about:

- Candlewood Glen & Candlelight Trails on the Northwest side (DeSoto Street): The properties should both be bulldozed, one turned into a park; quality low-cost housing built on the site of the other. (It won't be easy - the Candlelight Trails is actually a condominium complex).

- Le Promenade on the Southwest side (7400 block of Bissonnet): These condos should be bulldozed; half of the site turned into a park, or sold to HISD for use by Sharpstown High; half turned into quality low-cost housing.

- Properties on the Chronicle’s Database from 2008: Some of these places have changed hands and names, and repairs have started; but they can’t just put lipstick on pigs. They need to gut these places down to the studs and rebuild from there. TDHCA help sure would be nice.

- Houston’s countless derelict houses: There is no reason derelict houses can’t be demolished and rebuilt into quality low-cost housing. The City is starting to do this, and TDHCA actually has some programs in place that could help; but I’ve yet to see evidence that TDHCA is using those programs here in Houston.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. My point is that the TDHCA is doing Houston a huge disservice when they spend money to subsidize new housing on open land. It’s the urban equivalent of buying a new car, and leaving your old car to rot on the front lawn.

Interesting. In this thread, you wanted to put ex-cons in wealthier neighborhoods, so that the poor would not be forced to live amongst them. Yet, when a proposal to allow the poor to leave the neighborhoods full of ex-cons for (presumably) better neighborhoods, you are ready to sign up to speak against it.

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I would personally like to get back to the main topic: Band aid ripping! OOOUUUCH !!!

On point: The city certainly can be creative in blocking any development by slumlords. This is a small city with a big tax base, and a ton of influential people as residents. Certainly no one wants their neighborhood ruined by riff-raff, no matter the race, color, or creed. The argument Katy residents bring is about risk, 'en focus; loss of investment, quality of life, and individual security. The mayor's comment is well taken, and understood from my side of the fence, but I fail to see the bigotry, or racial overtones. I see a poor choice of words to relate the aforementioned risk.

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Thanks to all the supporters and Haters(AtticaFlinch and others) biggrin.gif

Why do you label me a Hater? I already wrote I couldn't care less what you do with the land. You could dump 40,000 gallons of orange sherbet on the property and have the Guinness Book world record for world's largest ice cream fight for all I care. You could build the world's deepest garbage dump on the property and fill it exclusively with roadkill carcasses, and I wouldn't bat an eye. You could build a high-end, gated neighborhood on the property where the streets are paved with gold and the fountains flow milk and honey and it probably wouldn't so much as solicit a yawn from me.

I just pointed out your archaic mayor is a racist. And he still is, regardless of whether or not the property's developed for low-income housing. Shame on Katy residents for electing such an anachronistic fool. And shame on anyone who shares his point of view. If you think I'm a Hater because I think racism is stupid and people who hold racist thoughts are stupid, then I suppose by your definition, I'm a Hater. In that case, I'll wear that title proudly. (Edit: Also, thanks for including the "L" in my nom de internet that so many people who feebly attempt to call me out seem to regularly miss.)

Why would inner-loopers care about what happens out in Katy? Or bother getting in this Katy forum? Just curious...

Looking in your post history, you've posted in the "Katy and Points West" and "The Great Northwest" forums several times yet you live in Sugarland. Edited by AtticaFlinch
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Looking in your post history, you've posted in the "Katy and Points West" and "The Great Northwest" forums several times yet you live in Sugarland.

It's all west-side suburbia. What is the big difference between these areas?

I post in this particular thread because Sugar Land had a similar thing happen last year.

And I'm not posting in the thread to be all judgmental of Katy residents because they don't want to live my urban lifestyle... since I'm in suburbia just like them.

There's no real comparison here between me and the inner-loopers in this case. Now, if I start getting into in-town area threads and telling them they are full of crap and need to start doing things just like we do out here in the 'burbs, then you can call me out.

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I just pointed out your archaic mayor is a racist. And he still is, regardless of whether or not the property's developed for low-income housing. Shame on Katy residents for electing such an anachronistic fool. And shame on anyone who shares his point of view. If you think I'm a Hater because I think racism is stupid and people who hold racist thoughts are stupid, then I suppose by your definition, I'm a Hater. In that case, I'll wear that title proudly. (Edit: Also, thanks for including the "L" in my nom de internet that so many people who feebly attempt to call me out seem to regularly miss.)

Remember that the mayor of Katy is elected by the approx 11k residents of Katy "proper" only, not the approx. 250k residents of the greater Katy area.

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It's all west-side suburbia. What is the big difference between these areas?

I post in this particular thread because Sugar Land had a similar thing happen last year.

And I'm not posting in the thread to be all judgmental of Katy residents because they don't want to live my urban lifestyle... since I'm in suburbia just like them.

There's no real comparison here between me and the inner-loopers in this case. Now, if I start getting into in-town area threads and telling them they are full of crap and need to start doing things just like we do out here in the 'burbs, then you can call me out.

Why don't you call them out if they're full of crap?

I guess I should change my location tag, as I've recently made the move to suburbialand myself. I guess I do have a stake in the game afterall! (Even if I didn't move into a treeless McMansion neighborhood, instead choosing a home and neighborhood with history and character... (and poor people nearby))

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Remember that the mayor of Katy is elected by the approx 11k residents of Katy "proper" only, not the approx. 250k residents of the greater Katy area.

But if those 250k people support the mayor and his racist logic, then that makes them just as culpable and reprehensible. Defending Elder's statement is unconscionable this day and age. It's not out of line in 1950s Mississippi parlance, but it doesn't fit in the 21st century. Though like I wrote earlier, I do prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to make an accurate snap judgment about the quality of their character than if they mask their bigotry with saccharine hands-across-America fakeness.

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But if those 250k people support the mayor and his racist logic, then that makes them just as culpable and reprehensible. Defending Elder's statement is unconscionable this day and age. It's not out of line in 1950s Mississippi parlance, but it doesn't fit in the 21st century. Though like I wrote earlier, I do prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to make an accurate snap judgment about the quality of their character than if they mask their bigotry with saccharine hands-across-America fakeness.

That's a big assumption. I'm not defending Elder's statement, but I don't think that opposing this particular development equates with supporting his statement. Accept Elder for what he is - a small town Texas mayor. I, like the majority of Katy area residents, can't vote for him and really don't care about this enough to launch a protest movement to get him removed from office on the basis of one ill-advised comment.

If I were going to allocate time to protesting stupid statements by elected officials, I would be a whole lot more inclined to go after our governor and his habit of making references to "secession".

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That's a big assumption. I'm not defending Elder's statement, but I don't think that opposing this particular development equates with supporting his statement.
I didn't say it did. Though I did say supporting his racist statement made a person stupid, and that Elder himself is stupid. I stand by what I said.
Accept Elder for what he is - a small town Texas mayor.
No, I will not accept the hatred and paternalism inherent in racism as just some hokey throwback to a previous era. Racism is dangerous, not cute. This isn't like discovering a butter churn in your grandparents' attic. I can judge history on its relative terms, but I will not judge the present, and the people who inhabit the present, on historical terms.
If I were going to allocate time to protesting stupid statements by elected officials, I would be a whole lot more inclined to go after our governor and his habit of making references to "secession".

I don't speak highly of him either.
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But if those 250k people support the mayor and his racist logic, then that makes them just as culpable and reprehensible. Defending Elder's statement is unconscionable this day and age. It's not out of line in 1950s Mississippi parlance, but it doesn't fit in the 21st century. Though like I wrote earlier, I do prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to make an accurate snap judgment about the quality of their character than if they mask their bigotry with saccharine hands-across-America fakeness.

Wow. Let's just get a rope and hang the SOB. Because of that one line: “Many of them aren't even American citizens,” he's a racist, bigot, and dumb southerner. You must have a built up hatred for rednecks. You need to take a trip to upper east Texas if you want to see real rednecks. 

I still think your confusing racism with political correctness. 

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Wow. Let's just get a rope and hang the SOB. Because of that one line: “Many of them aren't even American citizens,” he's a racist, bigot, and dumb southerner. You must have a built up hatred for rednecks. You need to take a trip to upper east Texas if you want to see real rednecks.

I don't dislike rednecks. I dislike racists. There's a big difference. Not every redneck's a racist, and certainly not every racist is a redneck. Racists come in all shapes and sizes, and sometimes they come at you subtly and use only slightly offensive phrasing like Elder did.

I still think your confusing racism with political correctness.

Call it racism, call it xenophobia, call it whatever you want, it's still a deplorable way to think. You can rationalize it all you'd like, and you can try to inject an alternate meaning into Elder's words, but the fact is the man's a bigot.

As far as confusion goes, I think you're the one who's succumbed to that. Because I dislike bigots, you've confused that with me disliking southerners and rednecks when nothing could be further from the truth. If I hated southern rednecks, I'd have to hate Hank Williams, and I just can't do that.

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I just think your being rather quick to judge based on one crappy article. Have you ever met the man? Heard him speak? Do you even know anybody with firsthand knowledge of the man?  He may very well be all the things you claim, I just can't say that based on this one piece. 

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I just think your being rather quick to judge based on one crappy article. Have you ever met the man? Heard him speak? Do you even know anybody with firsthand knowledge of the man? He may very well be all the things you claim, I just can't say that based on this one piece.

Should I wait to see if he sets a cross on fire before I pronounce judgment? I'm comfortable with my conclusion.

Though like I wrote earlier, I do prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to make an accurate snap judgment about the quality of their character than if they mask their bigotry with saccharine hands-across-America fakeness.

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I didn't say it did. Though I did say supporting his racist statement made a person stupid, and that Elder himself is stupid. I stand by what I said.

No, I will not accept the hatred and paternalism inherent in racism as just some hokey throwback to a previous era. Racism is dangerous, not cute. This isn't like discovering a butter churn in your grandparents' attic. I can judge history on its relative terms, but I will not judge the present, and the people who inhabit the present, on historical terms.

I don't speak highly of him either.

I'm not saying that you should accept inherent racism. I am saying that I'm not prepared to condemn someone as a racist on the basis of a single comment. My point that he is a small town mayor is not to condone racism, it's to point out that the mayor of Katy is not in a position where he is consistently dealing with media coverage and is not likely to be preparing his comments in the same manner that a major politician in a major city would be.

If you're prepared to condemn someone on the basis of a single comment, you must be extremely confident that you have never made an ill-advised statement in your past. Knowing this group, I'm sure that someone will be happy to comb through your 1400+ posts to point one out to you. rolleyes.gif

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I'm not saying that you should accept inherent racism. I am saying that I'm not prepared to condemn someone as a racist on the basis of a single comment. My point that he is a small town mayor is not to condone racism, it's to point out that the mayor of Katy is not in a position where he is consistently dealing with media coverage and is not likely to be preparing his comments in the same manner that a major politician in a major city would be.

If you're prepared to condemn someone on the basis of a single comment, you must be extremely confident that you have never made an ill-advised statement in your past. Knowing this group, I'm sure that someone will be happy to comb through your 1400+ posts to point one out to you. rolleyes.gif

Why don't you give me one contextual example where the statement can be viewed as innocent. I'd be happier to be wrong than right on this, trust me.

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Why don't you give me one contextual example where the statement can be viewed as innocent. I'd be happier to be wrong than right on this, trust me.

Sure - first - let's revisit quote.

“It concerns me,” Mayor Don Elder said after council members voted their opposition to the project. “I think it can still affect property values (in Katy) because nobody is going to build anything next to that.”

Elder said the housing complex could end up becoming a “slum area” because of poor maintenance and “transient” residents.

“Many of them aren’t even American citizens,” Elder added.

OK - now why is it so controversial to make a statement that poverty and illegal immigration are linked?

A couple of reference statements -

73 percent of Arizona's illegal immigrants and their U.S.-born children are living in poverty or near poverty. - Center for Immigration Studies

The stubborn persistence of poverty, at least as measured by the government, is increasingly a problem associated with immigration. As more poor Hispanics enter the country, poverty goes up. This is not complicated, but it is widely ignored. - Robert Samuelson in the Washington Post

"Among children whose parents are unauthorized immigrants, one in three is poor. The [poverty] rate of children of unauthorized immigrants is similar whether the children are unauthorized immigrants or U.S. born," the study says. - study by the Pew Hispanic Center as quoted by CNN.com

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